Question about Real Time Relationships

[Anthony1617]

I just finished reading Stefan's book Real Time Relationships. Towards the end of the book, he gives an example conversation between a mother and a daughter, where the daughter feels a sinking feeling upon talking to her.

 

The idea is that simply by telling your mother how you feel as you progress, she will run through all sorts of defenses and appeals to various emotions as a strategy of controlling you instead of doing the thing that should come natural: being curious.

 

My question is this: what should a conversion look like if the person on the other side doesn't start coming up with defenses? And if you can't offer a reason, (like, "I think I feel stressed at our conversation because you always put me down.") how do you continue the conversion if they just say something like "Well, I'm sorry for that. What do you want me to do?" or even if they just ask "Why do you think you feel that way?" If you then proceed to say, "Because you always put me down", they can just launch into 'story time' like the book says to avoid.

 

Any clarification from others that have read the book is appreciated. The part that I'm referring to begins on page 254.

 

Thanks

[kathryn]

You may want to avoid using "always" statements. When you say, "You always put me down," you're giving them ammo because there is plausible deniability within that statement. No one always does anything. Were they putting you down when they woke up that morning and had coffee? When you take your language to the extreme it often breaks down the conversation. You could say, "I perceive that you always put me down," or you could cite a specific example, "I felt put down after you said _____ ." 

 

Feelings in RTR are evidence, and they are untouchable. No one can argue with your feelings because they just are; they are involuntary responses. Conclusions, on the other hand, you can argue with. 

 

Starting with a conclusion like "You always put me down" isn't an exploration. It may be totally accurate, but all you really know is how you feel. When they ask you why you feel a certain way, you can honestly say that you don't know for sure, but this thing happened right before. Clarify that you don't know if it was truly the thing that made you feel that way. Because there could be other things going on, maybe the thing reminded you of a childhood experience where you felt put down. The key is to explore it with curiosity and stay connected to your feelings. If you start to feel overwhelmed, tell them and disengage. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

I'm not an expert or anything. The first time I tried RTRing with my mom I froze up. She did the same thing, she asked me why I felt anxious, and I didn't know what to say. In her case, she wasn't asking out of curiosity. She asked in order to pick apart and tear down whatever I had to say. I told her I didn't feel close to her, and she scoffed and dismissed this immediately. I didn't stand up for myself and call her on the invalidation. She started on "story time" about how inconvenient I was being. It's tough when someone is getting defensive and starting to move quickly to stay connected to how you are feeling. A little later in the conversation she screamed at me and called me names. It was painful, but it gave me some resolution. Of course I was afraid to tell her how I felt, she attacked me for my feelings. 

 

It's very difficult to RTR with someone who isn't RTRing back. You're under no obligation to even try with these kinds of people, but if you are uncertain, like I was, and make the attempt, you learn very quickly if they are open to it or not. 

 

Good luck. 

[Anthony1617]

You may want to avoid using "always" statements. When you say, "You always put me down," you're giving them ammo because there is plausible deniability within that statement. No one always does anything. Were they putting you down when they woke up that morning and had coffee? When you take your language to the extreme it often breaks down the conversation. You could say, "I perceive that you always put me down," or you could cite a specific example, "I felt put down after you said _____ ." 

 

Feelings in RTR are evidence, and they are untouchable. No one can argue with your feelings because they just are; they are involuntary responses. Conclusions, on the other hand, you can argue with. 

 

Starting with a conclusion like "You always put me down" isn't an exploration. It may be totally accurate, but all you really know is how you feel. When they ask you why you feel a certain way, you can honestly say that you don't know for sure, but this thing happened right before. Clarify that you don't know if it was truly the thing that made you feel that way. Because there could be other things going on, maybe the thing reminded you of a childhood experience where you felt put down. The key is to explore it with curiosity and stay connected to your feelings. If you start to feel overwhelmed, tell them and disengage. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

I'm not an expert or anything. The first time I tried RTRing with my mom I froze up. She did the same thing, she asked me why I felt anxious, and I didn't know what to say. In her case, she wasn't asking out of curiosity. She asked in order to pick apart and tear down whatever I had to say. I told her I didn't feel close to her, and she scoffed and dismissed this immediately. I didn't stand up for myself and call her on the invalidation. She started on "story time" about how inconvenient I was being. It's tough when someone is getting defensive and starting to move quickly to stay connected to how you are feeling. A little later in the conversation she screamed at me and called me names. It was painful, but it gave me some resolution. Of course I was afraid to tell her how I felt, she attacked me for my feelings. 

 

It's very difficult to RTR with someone who isn't RTRing back. You're under no obligation to even try with these kinds of people, but if you are uncertain, like I was, and make the attempt, you learn very quickly if they are open to it or not. 

 

Good luck. 

 

Right - my bad for using the word always. You're right about that, of course.

 

I was going to repeat what I originally asked: What would you say if they just said something like "Okay. What do you want me to do about it?" in response to telling them that I felt stressed when talking to them. I just realized from reading your example, though, that you would probably just tell them how that response made you feel. Something maybe like "I don't know. I just feel like ___".

 

Thanks for the response.

[LovePrevails]

 

My question is this: what should a conversion look like if the person on the other side doesn't start coming up with defenses? And if you can't offer a reason, (like, "I think I feel stressed at our conversation because you always put me down.") how do you continue the conversion if they just say something like "Well, I'm sorry for that. What do you want me to do?" or even if they just ask "Why do you think you feel that way?" If you then proceed to say, "Because you always put me down", they can just launch into 'story time' like the book says to avoid.

 

Any clarification from others that have read the book is appreciated. The part that I'm referring to begins on page 254.

 

Thanks

 

This is a really important question and I'm glad that you asked about it.

 

I am assuming what would be considered a "good" response is genuine curiosity, "well why do you think you feel like that?" "Is it anything I've done?" "What can I do to help?" .... and so forth

 

I think you're pointing to, what I think, a major drawback of RTR  as opposed to other methods and best practices across literature on effective communication

which is most people quite simply have no idea what to do when you put them in that situation - even if they really want to help they might have no idea how

some of their defensiveness might come entirely out of being clueless out of what to do

Not actually having had much experience  of having their feelings properly considered, drawn out, explored, quizzed, appraised, searched for implication

or having had really authentic connections - having never had any of this modelled to them they might just feel like a deer caught in the headlines

 

most books on effective communication will suggest a little more personal digging to find out what your needs are and begin a problem solving process by making direct requests

 

that might not always work - in fact I have had clients that have worked super hard on letters to their parents that are open, honest, expressive, curious, and make clear requests and still could not get very self-reflective or curious responses - but it is far more likely to work and lead to positive outcomes. What's more if you can manage to do that and still can't get through to a person you have greater assurance that if you decide to walk away and never look back that you really did leave no stone unturned in checking if there is something animate in there that you can connect with at all!

[Frederik]

As a disclaimer I would like to mention that I have very little experience RTRing with my parents thus far, though many experiences with RTRing with other people and I have great interest in advancing my knowledge and abilities about honest and effective communication.

 

I would also like to say that I fully subscribe to what kathryn has written. Excellent advice, in my opinion!

 

 

I was going to repeat what I originally asked: What would you say if they just said something like "Okay. What do you want me to do about it?" in response to telling them that I felt stressed when talking to them. I just realized from reading your example, though, that you would probably just tell them how that response made you feel. Something maybe like "I don't know. I just feel like ___".

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Something I often find helpful if I find myself not being sure about how someone would react to something, I put myself into their shoes. What if I was the parent and my child comes up to me with a particular concern?

 

If you as a child express a genuine concern and say that you experienced negative emotions during the conversation, every truly loving and caring parent would try everything to work it out. "What do you want me to do about it?" gives me the strong impression of passive aggression (making you feel bad by being annoyed by your genuine concern).

 

If my parent were to say that to me, I would probably first ask, "Well, does it bother you at all that I feel stressed?", because I first would want to make sure that my parent is genuinely concerned. Otherwise the conversation won't go anywhere without the parent being intrinsicly motivated to make the relationship work. If she answers "No" -> I would RTR more, until closure.

If "Yes", I would express my needs clearly and directly. "Okay, I appreciate your concern and that you want to help trying to work it out. What would help me a lot is if you let me know what goes on for you in the moment emotionally. What did you feel when you asked me the initial question?" I would then go on and explore the relationship further...

 

Please let me know what you think.

 

 

I think you're pointing to, what I think, a major drawback of RTR  as opposed to other methods and best practices across literature on effective communication

which is most people quite simply have no idea what to do when you put them in that situation - even if they really want to help they might have no idea how

some of their defensiveness might come entirely out of being clueless out of what to do

Not actually having had much experience  of having their feelings properly considered, drawn out, explored, quizzed, appraised, searched for implication

or having had really authentic connections - having never had any of this modelled to them they might just feel like a deer caught in the headlines

 

I found your post very interesting, for it includes criticism of RTR. But I am not sure if you refer to the "method" RTR or the whole work - the book?

The "method" RTR I would (personally) define as

Openly and curiously examining and expressing one's emotional experience in the moment in order to increase self-knowledge and the quality of relationships.

I think you make a very good point, in that the wants of a person in a relationship might not be clear enough. I cannot remember reading in Real-Time Relationships explicitly that making wants known in a relationship is essential for closure. I do remember, however, Stefan talking about that repeatedly in (older) podcasts.

 

On the other hand I would argue that you are making excuses for the conversation partner. Every truly caring person knows what to do if someone experiences negative emotions. Even if they know nothing about the value of sharing emotions in the moment, they would be thrilled to experience someone being open and honest in the moment and they would try everything to keep up and help the other person out.

As I stated already, I think it is essential to make one's needs clear in a relationship, because then there can hardly be any doubt left about the relationship if wants are still not met.

 

Again, I don't think it is valid to say that a person who really wants to help does not know what to do when someone is being open and honest about their experience in the moment --- because the appropriate response in every case is vulnerability. Responding "I really don't know what to do right now, can you help me out?" is knowing what to do... If that makes any sense?

[madman]

i'm both reading the book and listening to it on mp3. some of the stuff hit's pretty hard and i'll dissociate. then it's better for me to read than to listen so I can reread or put it down and pick up later when i'm less emotional and more open minded. I think the example of rtr with a parent or anyone else of significance in my life is to find out if that person is safe. I think it's an acid test. I have the hardest time not jumping to conclusions and intellectualizing. I do not have examples as to how this can make someone curios. being curious is counterintuitive to me. saying nothing but how I feel is counterintuitive to me. truth tellers get attacked. if I say how I feel nobody can argue that. if I jump to conclusions I think it's a defense mechanism cuz all I was modelled was win lose, moral posturing, framing, and manipulation. i'll jump to conclusions to intellectualize and create sinners. more win lose. don't talk, don't trust, don't feel.

 

rtr starts first with myself. if I can't tell you how I feel then either I don't know or you're not safe to tell or i'm scared of the truth. telling the truth is how I best understand the truth. if I tell you how I feel I immediately see if it seems crazy or not. if it's true or not. if i'm hedging my bets with fog or partial disclosure or downright lies. facing my feelings is hard work. telling them to someone is risky. especially if that person isn't safe. i'm finding out who's safe by speaking my truth and trusting my gut to tell me who's not safe. if i'm under attack from a stranger I don't rtr with them. I know from the podcasts that a lot of people have had trouble with rtr. it's scary stuff.

 

 I read something yesterday that said when I want to act out it's my job to feel the feelings that are driving that urge to self destruct. lately I've wanted to act out. I asked myself what it was I didn't want to feel. shame, fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, rage, loneliness, fear, pain, depression, guilt. I told my friend I wanted to act out. then I went to her house to "fix her water heater". I didn't act out. today we talked about it. she felt the same but values me as a friend more. we talked about using others to manage our anxiety, loneliness, low self esteem. this is the closest I think I've come to rtr.