Fear of FDR community's disaproval

[RicardoMata]

I've been away from this community for a lot of time now since I last discovered FDR and some of you may recognize me from a couple of mouths ago (or something like that I'm not sure) and since then some things have happened with some FDR members that have been troubling me.... a lot, torturing me emotionally really and this is the reason why I have been away for so long.

 

This topic is not about what happened in and of itself but the consequences that it has on my credibility in this community. Ok enough with the abstactions.

 

I was in a Skype group with some FDR members and sometime after the formation of said group I did something extremelly inapropriate and dysfunctional (that I'm not confortable telling here) and some of the members deemed it evil (which now in insight I don't find it to be the case at all). After that I felt very disaproved off and some time after I got ostracized from said group.

 

After these events the true nightmare began. In the midst of my thoughts and emotions an argument arose which has been haunting me:

P1-The FDR community is based on reputation.

P2-People with bad reputation or who did horrible things get ostracized.

P3-I did a horrible thing.

P4-FDR members know each other to the extent that they will tell each other to not engage with me.

C1-I'm gonna get ostricized from the whole community

P5-Generally people who are ostricized by the FDR community are bad people.

C2-I'm a bad person.

 

And this argument has made me very anxious and fearful of ever engaging with anyone other than zombies (almost becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy). Untill now.

 

Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to get it of my chest. Comments, sugestions, thoughts, opinions... they are all very welcome. Thank you for your atention.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

two things might be important to consider about the situation.

 

1) Was what you did evil? Did you initiate the use of force?

2) Can you apologize? 

 

I'm not necessarily saying if what you did was not evil, that it would therefore be ok or anything. But it would make a difference in that it would be relatively easy for the other person to stop talking to you, and for them to take some responsibility for engaging with you in a manner which allowed you to do this, and they would be responsible for engaging with you if they had passed over red flags which you presented earlier which may have indicated you would do something like this.

 

But maybe they had no idea

 

I think there is a pretty big difference between an act of evil and a really dick move. At least I personally think the latter is easier to write off, even if it is hurtful in the moment. The former is more terrifying since it can hardly be defended against in the same way. For instance, if someone is a sadist and in the mall they make some slimy comment about me as I walk past them, even if I find it annoying in the heat of the moment (and the extent to which I do might indicate I am not fully resolved of some past abuse), I eventually will realize that his comment had nothing to do with me as a person, but had to do with my physical proximity to a sadist.. But if he stuck his foot out and I trip over it and break my nose, well now I'm really hurt in a way I can't undo and have a lot more misfortune. 

 

But the second point about apologizing, have you done that? Was it sincere? I think to sincerely apologize we need to recognize why we did the thing (so we can recognize when we're prone to doing it again), how it hurt the other person, what it would have felt like to be in the other person's shoes, and then hopefully you can connect with the regret you feel and share it with them. Generally, I think it is very brave to sincerely apologize. And in our modern world it's a pretty rare feat, with all the lingo of "there is never anything to regret" or "yea, but I have to live with what I did so that is my punishment" (as if the other person doesn't... but believe it or not I've had someone say this to me)

 

At worst (and really it's for best) I think FDR is about honesty, so hopefully people here will make you aware of what you did and why it was not appropriate, and maybe they can help you understand a blind spot or empathy block you may have, but usually only the most committed sadists and trolls are blocked from the site (at least in my experience the past year or so). And in terms of making future friends, there is always room for self knowledge and I'm sure you will find others who did things they regret when they were in their 20s. I think I personally have less compassion for people who hide their actions, who flee responsibility like the plague, and who never grow after years of knowing about a problem. The fact that you were so concerned, and that you came out in the open like this to share your concern shows commitment to growth and personal responsibility, and those are two very important qualities to most posters here. I would plan on making many more mistakes in the future, because it is bound to happen, but usually with self knowledge you can try to move past the self attack and move towards self criticism which extends an empathy towards yourself to avoid putting yourself in situations which harm your conscience. I know some people, who all they can do is beat themselves up or double down on their wrongdoings (I'm talking about acts of evil here), and they are not a pretty bunch. So that is why when you earn it, forgiving yourself can be quite healthy (I think at least, I think most others would agree) and necessary process.

 

These are just some thoughts that came to me when reading your post, hopefully that helps 

 

I would check out many of the first videos that pop up when you type "Stefan Molyneux Empathy" into Youtube. If I am remembering correctly "How Can I Develop Empathy?" is the one where he says self empathy must come before we have empathy for others. It should be helpful

[thebeardslastcall]

If it's not evil or immoral then why are you afraid of sharing what it is you did? If you dislike what they did then I presume there are others here whom you wish to connect with? While simultaneously suggesting without such action as this post leads to these people might join the group of ostracizers based on second hand information? Flipping the coin, if you were on the receiving end of this unstated action how do you think you would have reacted? Do you think FDR members are going to hop on the ostracize bandwagon so easily despite our tendencies to being outside the mainstream in thinking and behaviors? Reputation systems are everywhere in a sense, but what changes are the dynamics of how ones reputation is measured and how the reputation is dispersed and handled among individuals among the group. Do you feel you're being judged unfairly or wish to make any case as to why people are judging you by poor metrics?

I wonder at what point two people are beyond measuring each other's morality and they can move beyond such metrics to have an open and honest relationship where they aren't afraid of being measured and found wanting. When can we stop being afraid of social judgement and believing in ourselves having sufficient morality and value to not have to worry about that and simply be comfortable with ourselves that we don't fear ostracism because those who ostracize us are not the people we want to associate with anyways. People who think they won't measure up to standards are naturally quite fearful of there being any kind of standards that might measure them lacking. Standards are a scary thing when you're used to being rejected or found wanting.

Best thing I can recommend is make an honest evaluation of yourself and raise yourself up morally and integrity wise that you no longer fear any measuring sticks. Be humble where appropriate and strong and moral to the best of your ability so you can feel comfortable that you're a decent person. If you're at your best then you need not worry about such things. Be great and let the social die fall as they may. Don't let a stumble keep you down, but also be happy when you're in a place with standards that doesn't let immorality go free of justice and consequence. The only scarier thing than a place with standards is a place with no standards.

[thebeardslastcall]

What's scarier, being ostracized here or that this is the type of place that would ostracize you?

I wonder if for some people they come here thinking it will be their last refuge and then when they don't fit in or they feel they don't fit in that they are left with a bit of despair, fear, and feeling a bit distraught at the implications for themselves and for philosophy. With the possibility they are making inaccurate deductions that lead them to thinking worse of the situation than the situation truly warrants. Also take note of how many people listen to the show in comparison to the relatively minor number of people who participate on the forums. Just because you don't find what you're looking for here doesn't mean there aren't others in your same boat that you would get along with. It just means it's a little harder to find and connect with them.

[Will Torbald]

You're going to have to be a little more specific for me to understand what the worry is. If anyone is ostracized unjustly that's a big issue, but if the rejection is caused by a legitimate incompatibility of values, why would you be concerned with that?

[algernon]

Groups have the right to ostracize for whatever reason they choose, maybe they don't like your haircut, or your fingernails are too long, these aren't moral judgements. You said they deemed it evil, and after you considered it you disagree. It sounds like it might have just been a preference, but since you aren't comfortable saying what it was we can't really comment on it.

 

Personally I would never refuse to engage someone because I was told not to engage with them, I would have more of a problem with the person telling me not to engage with another person, than the person I'm being told not to engage with. Sorry if that was confusing. Even if you did something extremely inappropriate (dick pics?) it sounds like you've learned from the situation and are attempting to correct it (no dick pics please). There are situations and people I wouldn't want to engage with, habitually toxic people with no intention of correcting their actions, and perhaps if someone warned me of them I would tread lightly, but perception can be skewed, I think it's best left up to the individual to make the judgement call.

 

I was raised extremely religious, and I do get a feeling from certain people here very similar to the church / christian "holier than thou" people. I would say people who can reject the religion of the state and force, are interested in philosophy and enjoy engaging through text on forums are more intelligent than the general population, some times egos and self righteousness can get the best of us. Stay humble my friends.

[Spenc]

i have trouble thinking you were justly accused of doing evil.  perhaps you could be justly accused of corrupt behaviour, but of course without details of the inappropriate and dysfunctional action we cannot render any opinions on that anyways.

 

but back to evil....it's simply an empty term to be thrown around by philosophical people.  it's like Keynesians talking about 'animal spirits', it doesn't really have any substance to it.  rather it makes clear the failure of the accuser to be articulate.

 

since you aren't comfortable describing the behaviours that caused the issue, can you lend more insight into what judgments you have made about those actions?  for example, would you accept a lesser charge of being corrupt as opposed to evil?  would you shed a bit more light onto your process of thinking through how seriously inappropriate your behaviour was?  like, a fast food employee spitting in someone's burger is corrupt behaviour but it's not really harming anyone vs. a person who spots an emotionally unstable person and manipulates that person to serve his own emotional dysfunctions and sexual desires and so on, which is much more serious.

[RicardoMata]

Thank you so much for all of your replies and for the interest you guys are displaying here. I feel a little more confortable about the subject and I guess it wouldn't hurt to tell the specifics of the situation. The reason that I was (and still am a little) scared about saying it in the forums is because the members which witnessed the events might see it and that terrifies me... But I will not let my fear prevent me from improving myself or from being surrounded with a community that enjoys and respects my presence.
 
In this group we often engaged in deep topics such as childhoods and the such. However there was this guy (that we will call A for the sake of discretion and simplicity) in the group that I perceived would usually not take things very seriously and would joke around in deeper topics. Maybe it was true or not but I don't know and not does it matter in this case. My course of action apon realizing that was what set everything into motion and was the cause of the problem.

 

For those who asked if I initiated the use of force It was on a Skype conversation so we only exchanged words and I did not threaten him with violence so I think I didn't break the NAP but after the complete story you'll be the judge of that.

 

Anyway, apon this realization I thought it would be helpfull to, essencially, act like a therapist and try to connect with his wounded inner child. After witnessing Stef do it multiple times in his show (and growing a deep admiration for him as a result) I thought that I would be doing a great service to this fella so that he can overcome his (as I perceived to be) fear of connection. Anyone with half a brain can imediatly tell that this would result in a disaster given that I do not posess neither the YEARS of therapy that Stef went through nor the professional training that psychotherapists have... I, however, did not realize this in time.

 

Notice that I said ACT like a therapist. There is a reason for this. Because of my childhood traumas, lack of self-knowledge and no therapy I don't know how to connect with people and I ended up faking empathy and connection for reasons I'm not sure but I have an ideia... The result ? I was trying cure lack of connection with fake connection which is a complete and utter disaster.

 

Some members of the group deemed this immoral because of the fact that the WORST thing you can do to a person with fear of connection and to give the person the ILLUSION of connection but then taking it away from them...

 

And yes in all of my actions there are some nasty implications that I wasn't aware at the moment but I was made aware of them after hours of journaling about this (such as me saying that I look up to Stef and I try to be like him but then go on to faking empathy which implies that I think that he too fakes empathy which was a horrible realization)

 

If you still need more clarification please feel free to ask. I feel really bad for what I did and I wish to make emends altho it's perfectly reasonable for them to not want to engage with me. However what I'm really scared of is what if the rest of the FDR comunity decides to (as thebeardslastcall pointed out earlier) jump in the same bandwagon and ostracize me which would the last door of virtue to close.

 

Thank you for reading.

[neeeel]

I dont know the full story, but the impression I get is that you are reading too much into all this.

 

It sounds like you made an honest mistake, you were trying to help. You didnt string him along pretending to be his friend for weeks, or abuse him, or manipulate him. ( this is assuming your stated motives are true, of course).

 

I have noticed that some people on FDR seem quick to jump onto concepts and ideas, without fully understanding them. For example, I was listening to a call where the guy was saying, I was in a co-dependent relationship, I was manipulated, and when stef asked him what he meant, he finally admitted he didnt really know. Its like, people hear these concepts, and are quick to appropriate them, or use these labels on themselves, or others. 

 

If the members of the group deemed you immoral( this is another example of people quick to apply labels or concepts) then you are probably better off without them. Did they give you a chance to explain? Or repair what damage you had done? Or tried to understand in any way? Or did they just lump on with the labels and condemnation?

[Will Torbald]

Thank you so much for all of your replies and for the interest you guys are displaying here. I feel a little more confortable about the subject and I guess it wouldn't hurt to tell the specifics of the situation. The reason that I was (and still am a little) scared about saying it in the forums is because the members which witnessed the events might see it and that terrifies me... But I will not let my fear prevent me from improving myself or from being surrounded with a community that enjoys and respects my presence.

 

In this group we often engaged in deep topics such as childhoods and the such. However there was this guy (that we will call A for the sake of discretion and simplicity) in the group that I perceived would usually not take things very seriously and would joke around in deeper topics. Maybe it was true or not but I don't know and not does it matter in this case. My course of action apon realizing that was what set everything into motion and was the cause of the problem.

 

For those who asked if I initiated the use of force It was on a Skype conversation so we only exchanged words and I did not threaten him with violence so I think I didn't break the NAP but after the complete story you'll be the judge of that.

 

Anyway, apon this realization I thought it would be helpfull to, essencially, act like a therapist and try to connect with his wounded inner child. After witnessing Stef do it multiple times in his show (and growing a deep admiration for him as a result) I thought that I would be doing a great service to this fella so that he can overcome his (as I perceived to be) fear of connection. Anyone with half a brain can imediatly tell that this would result in a disaster given that I do not posess neither the YEARS of therapy that Stef went through nor the professional training that psychotherapists have... I, however, did not realize this in time.

 

Notice that I said ACT like a therapist. There is a reason for this. Because of my childhood traumas, lack of self-knowledge and no therapy I don't know how to connect with people and I ended up faking empathy and connection for reasons I'm not sure but I have an ideia... The result ? I was trying cure lack of connection with fake connection which is a complete and utter disaster.

 

Some members of the group deemed this immoral because of the fact that the WORST thing you can do to a person with fear of connection and to give the person the ILLUSION of connection but then taking it away from them...

 

And yes in all of my actions there are some nasty implications that I wasn't aware at the moment but I was made aware of them after hours of journaling about this (such as me saying that I look up to Stef and I try to be like him but then go on to faking empathy which implies that I think that he too fakes empathy which was a horrible realization)

 

If you still need more clarification please feel free to ask. I feel really bad for what I did and I wish to make emends altho it's perfectly reasonable for them to not want to engage with me. However what I'm really scared of is what if the rest of the FDR comunity decides to (as thebeardslastcall pointed out earlier) jump in the same bandwagon and ostracize me which would the last door of virtue to close.

 

Thank you for reading.

 

The counterfeit of relationships can be analogued with the counterfeit of currency. If the latter is a crime, why isn't the former?

[Matthew Ed Moran]

"I dont know the full story, but the impression I get is that you are reading too much into all this."

 

I don't know if others feel the same way, Neeel, but I find this phrase dismissive. You are saying there wouldn't be a problem if he stopped thinking about these things.  But there is a problem, obviously, Ricardo identifies it himself - he thinks he was manipulating the other person into thinking he was empathetic and curious. That's an issue that is really important to him. 

 

Ricardo, I really admire that you decided to share what happened. That is really brave, I think.

 

It is hard for me to understand exactly what it means to fake empathy, though I have some clue. If you say you don't know how to connect, then I will believe you, and I think if you were not being truthful about your emotional experience, then you may have been misleading the person you were talking to.

 

But it's not immoral. I'm sorry it was a bad experience, but it's important that to call the facts as they are, and admit at worst you made a mistake, but what you did was not immoral because it was not the initiation of force nor was it threatening.

 

But lastly I think "faking empathy" can be a phrase that sets you up for self attack. I'm not exactly clear on what that means. If someone is joking about a serious matter, it might be worth asking about their childhood. Maybe it might be better just to ask them why they are joking, or bring up your feelings in the moment as you witness it. Maybe it was distracting or bothersome to you, and if that were the case it might be better to just plain say so.

 

Of course there is also the question why you felt the need to act as if you were curious or concerned about his childhood experiences if you were not. What was it that you were fearing about being honest in that moment? That is rhetorical for you to answer in your journal if it's a question you can connect with

 

I hope that was of some help, I found it a bit touching you would share all this on a forum for others to learn from  

[algernon]

I'm shocked, I don't even know what to say. Not quite what I was expecting...

 

I think you might be relying a little bit to much on other people to validate you. So you made a mistake and from your perspective were trying to do something good to help someone else, a mistake that backfired. According to you the motives were good, you just went about it the wrong way. As it has already been said, you weren't doing it to manipulate or use the person to your advantage. You're inexperienced and went about it the wrong way, if someone doesn't want to associate with you after you realized the mistake and tried to make amends, so be it.

 

I must ask, do you want to beg for admittance into a group that does not want you? Why would you want someone that does not want you? I would hardly say this is the last bastion of virtue on the planet. Emotions are good and can help guide you, but they can also drag you around and get out of control, I think you may need to reel it in a bit. Sorry if this sounds harsh, I know personally it has helped me for a calm voice to say "hey, what are you getting worked up about? Calm down".

 

Say a couple is in a bad relationship and treat each other poorly, they break up and through self knowledge become better people. They should probably never be in a relationship again with each other, but that does not mean they can't have a relationship with anyone.

 

You made a mistake, they made you aware of your mistake and "unfriended" you, upon reflection you agreed it was wrong and won't make the same mistake again (hopefully). Time to move on.

[thebeardslastcall]

If you still need more clarification please feel free to ask. I feel really bad for what I did and I wish to make emends altho it's perfectly reasonable for them to not want to engage with me. However what I'm really scared of is what if the rest of the FDR comunity decides to (as thebeardslastcall pointed out earlier) jump in the same bandwagon and ostracize me which would the last door of virtue to close.

 

I didn't point that out, you did. I thought my point was that free and independent thinkers, the type more inclined to be here in comparison to the average person, aren't the bandwagon type and would judge the situation for themselves. You seemed to fear a herd mentality among a group of people who ended up where they are specifically because of their anti-herd mentality. I was trying to counter your fear by showing that it didn't seem justified or fair to the rest of us here on the forums.

 

Sounds like you learned a lesson the hard way and realized it's not easy to help some people and if you try to help people in a dishonest fashion you're more likely to do harm than good.

[neeeel]

"I dont know the full story, but the impression I get is that you are reading too much into all this."

 

I don't know if others feel the same way, Neeel, but I find this phrase dismissive. You are saying there wouldn't be a problem if he stopped thinking about these things.  But there is a problem, obviously, Ricardo identifies it himself - he thinks he was manipulating the other person into thinking he was empathetic and curious. That's an issue that is really important to him. 

 

 

 

 

I can understand that it might be taken as dismissive. I could have phrased it better, perhaps.

I am not saying that he should stop thinking about it, or forget about it. The impression I got was that he was totally thrown into a spiral of self recrimination, worry, fear, all from what seemed to be from an effort to be interested and curious with someone. He seemed to switch to believing that he was a horrible immoral evil person, just because someone questioned his motives, or threw a few labels at him. I know its difficult to do from the inside ( I am similarly stuck with extremes of thinking when it comes to myself), so I just wanted to say, take a step back, forget the labels, forget what story you are building up around it, and look at it more dispassionately. Not easy to do, I know.

 

 

Edit: Perhaps this is still too dismissive as well?

[Jot]

Fear of FDR community's disapproval should be in your mind nothing but fear of being irrational or immoral.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I can understand that it might be taken as dismissive. I could have phrased it better, perhaps.

I am not saying that he should stop thinking about it, or forget about it. The impression I got was that he was totally thrown into a spiral of self recrimination, worry, fear, all from what seemed to be from an effort to be interested and curious with someone. He seemed to switch to believing that he was a horrible immoral evil person, just because someone questioned his motives, or threw a few labels at him. I know its difficult to do from the inside ( I am similarly stuck with extremes of thinking when it comes to myself), so I just wanted to say, take a step back, forget the labels, forget what story you are building up around it, and look at it more dispassionately. Not easy to do, I know.

 

 

Edit: Perhaps this is still too dismissive as well?

 

Yea, I struggle with that, too, which is probably part of the reason I was even drawn to respond in this thread. I think a lot of it has to do with fear of abandonment which produces a lot of self attack, and even when I see it from someone else I will want to help because I hate that spiral and feeling or even witnessing it. It could even be unconscious on my part to want to write so much to try and put an end to those feelings, when you have a point that I think others have also expressed, which is that it might be best to try and sit calmly in the seat of reality and figure if our expectations are realistic about a situation, and if they're not, why not?

 

I don't have a problem with your post, I think it was the wording that triggered me but not the content because what you are saying here seems reasonable to me. Thanks for letting me know your thoughts

[Max Hartford]

My advice? Worry less about what other people think, and ditch the guilt. Life's too short for that nonsense.

[Jot]

My advice? Worry less about what other people think, and ditch the guilt. Life's too short for that nonsense.

Not  a great psychologist...

[Max Hartford]

Not  a great psychologist...

 

But better than most!

[J-William]

P1-The FDR community is based on reputation.

P2-People with bad reputation or who did horrible things get ostracized.

P3-I did a horrible thing.

P4-FDR members know each other to the extent that they will tell each other to not engage with me.

C1-I'm gonna get ostricized from the whole community

P5-Generally people who are ostricized by the FDR community are bad people.

C2-I'm a bad person.

.

Ok after scanning the whole thread I think this part needs review.

I have been on the board/ in the fdr community for ten years and people do not know each other. A lot of people drop in and out and just assuming that someone shares an interest in philosophy so they must be moral is abdicating your own judgement about these people.

I have met a number of people through fdr, and few of them were people I want to be friends with.

[elzoog]

But better than most!

 

Actually, ditching guilt is recommended by some psychologists.  If you want, I can try to find some links for you.