Apologies

[kathryn]

I found this graphic yesterday, and I think it is a great resource for apologies. Here's the link to the original source: http://staymarriedblog.com/the-best-apology-how-to-say-sorry-like-you-mean-it/

 

The author clarifies that these are tools for apologies within the context of already good relationships, like marriage. She rightly discusses how some things, like childhood abuse, do not warrant personal forgiveness of the violating individual, rather internal processing on the side of the victim. 

 

But, within the context of voluntary and valuable relationships, these are the steps she cites for apologizing:

 

Expressing Regret

Accepting Responsibility

Making Restitution

Genuinely Repenting

Requesting Forgiveness

 

I think the first four are spot on, but what do y'all think of the last step: requesting forgiveness? I'm not sure why this seems strange to me. In my head it sounds like a demand, which I think is primarily the example I've seen of people asking for forgiveness. But when it is genuinely a request and not a demand, is it appropriate to ask someone to forgive you? 

 

[Kevin Beal]

I think the distinction I would make regarding requesting forgiveness is whether or not they:

1. Understand how their actions were suboptimal (let's just say), that they realize the importance of why you don't want it to happen again, and they actually do intend to make things better in the relationship. OR
2. They don't understand, don't care to understand, or don't think they ought to apologize, but do it anyway in order to gain the benefits of your trust.

If they genuinely do understand and want to make it better, requesting forgiveness could be interpreted in a way which is not altogether unhealthy. That is, they mean to communicate with that request that they want to do right by you, without the expectation that this forgiveness comes with the benefits of your full trust. In that way it's an indirect way of letting you know that they fucked up, they know it and they don't want to do it again.

 

Alternately, it could be interpreted as a request for your full trust again as a way of demonstrating their trustworthiness by what they do with that trust. For example, let's say I want you to trust me to follow through on commitments I made to you, so I'm asking you to trust me to follow through so I can regain the lost trust by consistently following through over time.

 

---------------------

 

If however they are in the second camp, then the request for forgiveness is a pretty gross emotional manipulation. If I apologize without stating that what I would like is your forgiveness, then why am I being covert about it? It's anxiety management.

 

If I call you a nasty name and you reasonably get upset about that, and I apologize out of fear of what you might do (e.x. break up with me), then this is all about me and my anxiety, not about you and the quality of our relationship.

 

If you get in my apology that I'm anxious and you accept it because of your anxiety about my anxiety, like I'm giving you a puppy dog look (not in a playful way), or my anxiety is coming through in nervous laughter or badly timed jokes, then I'm just trying to manipulate you and get you to manage my own feelings about the way I did you wrong. Basically, I'm asking you to pretend like it didn't happen.

 

If that's the way I deal with my anxiety, by prematurely apologizing prior to fully processing what happened, then any understanding I have about the situation is shallow at best, and it is unlikely to translate into me regaining your trust.

 

And if I don't think I should apologize but do anyway, then I'm either doing a bad job of manipulating you and thus being condescending, or I'm doing a good job and being very manipulative, clearly.

 

---------------------

 

Personally, I'd like to space laser the word "forgiveness" out of the english language because of just how often it comes with emotional manipulation, as if it were something chosen and all the propaganda surrounding it. I prefer to just say "trust". It's a little harder to manipulate people that way because they know what they do and don't trust. Forgiveness sounds like this other thing that is ethereal, like some metaphysical object too strange and magical for mere mortals to comprehend.

 

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

[madman]

I don't like the last step. I keep listening to on truth and saying will you forgive me smacks of trust me or love me. it feels skeezy and manipulative. I did this so now you have to do that. it implies obligation. I agree with the first  four steps and then the last part where they say "is there anything I can do to make this right?" This is my working understanding of making amends which might be wrong. If I've harmed someone and genuinely ask what can I do then I'm showing empathy instead of saying here's what you have coming to you now take it or leave it. I think it gives both parties a chance to explore what happened and what's really bothering each person. I know I get triggered by things that seem unconnected that require introspection and discussion with someone I can trust to find out what's really driving my emotions. I had a bad time with a friend recently. After talking about it later I found out I triggered her fears of her father's anger and she was triggering my fear of attack from my mother. I would never have guessed it had we not talked about it after the fact.

[kathryn]

I think the distinction I would make regarding requesting forgiveness is whether or not they:

1. Understand how their actions were suboptimal (let's just say), that they realize the importance of why you don't want it to happen again, and they actually do intend to make things better in the relationship. OR
2. They don't understand, don't care to understand, or don't think they ought to apologize, but do it anyway in order to gain the benefits of your trust.

If they genuinely do understand and want to make it better, requesting forgiveness could be interpreted in a way which is not altogether unhealthy. That is, they mean to communicate with that request that they want to do right by you, without the expectation that this forgiveness comes with the benefits of your full trust. In that way it's an indirect way of letting you know that they fucked up, they know it and they don't want to do it again.

 

Alternately, it could be interpreted as a request for your full trust again as a way of demonstrating their trustworthiness by what they do with that trust. For example, let's say I want you to trust me to follow through on commitments I made to you, so I'm asking you to trust me to follow through so I can regain the lost trust by consistently following through over time.

 

---------------------

 

If however they are in the second camp, then the request for forgiveness is a pretty gross emotional manipulation. If I apologize without stating that what I would like is your forgiveness, then why am I being covert about it? It's anxiety management.

 

If I call you a nasty name and you reasonably get upset about that, and I apologize out of fear of what you might do (e.x. break up with me), then this is all about me and my anxiety, not about you and the quality of our relationship.

 

If you get in my apology that I'm anxious and you accept it because of your anxiety about my anxiety, like I'm giving you a puppy dog look (not in a playful way), or my anxiety is coming through in nervous laughter or badly timed jokes, then I'm just trying to manipulate you and get you to manage my own feelings about the way I did you wrong. Basically, I'm asking you to pretend like it didn't happen.

 

If that's the way I deal with my anxiety, by prematurely apologizing prior to fully processing what happened, then any understanding I have about the situation is shallow at best, and it is unlikely to translate into me regaining your trust.

 

And if I don't think I should apologize but do anyway, then I'm either doing a bad job of manipulating you and thus being condescending, or I'm doing a good job and being very manipulative, clearly.

 

---------------------

 

Personally, I'd like to space laser the word "forgiveness" out of the english language because of just how often it comes with emotional manipulation, as if it were something chosen and all the propaganda surrounding it. I prefer to just say "trust". It's a little harder to manipulate people that way because they know what they do and don't trust. Forgiveness sounds like this other thing that is ethereal, like some metaphysical object too strange and magical for mere mortals to comprehend.

 

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

 

Right, asking for forgiveness doesn't make sense because it's not something that can be granted. It would be like asking someone to love you. One cannot will themselves to love another person, just as one cannot will forgiveness. 

 

By doing the first four things she mentions (Expressing Regret, Accepting Responsibility, Making Restitution, and Genuinely Repenting) forgiving may or may not come in time, but I don't think making a request will expedite the process. 

 

I do generally like her list of the Do's and Don'ts for apologies. Just not the bit about requesting forgiveness. 

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  

[madman]

I love that last paragraph Kevin. Forgiveness has been a club that I'm expected to use on myself. That's super twisted and jumbo creepy. It's sadistic. I'm getting a church flashback...

[August Boulder]

I don't think that fourth step is quite as simple as "ask forgiveness" – in the image that accompanies the OP, it is presented as a "humble request that can rebuild a relationship", and it allows for the fact that the hurt party may not forgive you right away or at all and that they don't ever actually owe you forgiveness.

 

In the fifth step, this last point is reinforced, when she mentions that it is important for someone to own up to their part of a quarrel or misunderstanding, where there is fault on both ends, without expecting or counting on the same from the other party.

 

Seen in this light, I mean in light of the text within the image, I think it makes plenty of sense to ask for forgiveness. However, the way that I would probably go about asking it, would be something like, "I hope you can forgive me, but I will understand if you need time to make that decision, and realize that I may not receive it."

 

This way, I think that asking for forgiveness would be a way of letting them know that you value the relationship and want to keep it. Whereas if you just apologize but do not clarify that their forgiveness is important to you, it may be understood by the other party that the relationship may just as well end on that note. And in many cases I think this tends to happen after a strong argument or misunderstanding – the parties involved may just keep their distance for some time, and then slowly build the friendship back up. This however would appear to me to be unhealthy, as the problem would not have been dealt with and could very possibly creep back into the relationship.

 

I think that asking for forgiveness may open the way to a real conversation about what happened, and how to avoid it happening again in the relationship, because to ask for something is to accept that you may be turned down and that requires certain vulnerability on the part of the offender.

 

I don't know – does this make sense?

[Carl Green]

I haven't read the whole article, but I did notice that those aren't "steps" to forgiveness, they're listed as "Apology Languages".

[kathryn]

I don't think that fourth step is quite as simple as "ask forgiveness" – in the image that accompanies the OP, it is presented as a "humble request that can rebuild a relationship", and it allows for the fact that the hurt party may not forgive you right away or at all and that they don't ever actually owe you forgiveness.

 

In the fifth step, this last point is reinforced, when she mentions that it is important for someone to own up to their part of a quarrel or misunderstanding, where there is fault on both ends, without expecting or counting on the same from the other party.

 

Seen in this light, I mean in light of the text within the image, I think it makes plenty of sense to ask for forgiveness. However, the way that I would probably go about asking it, would be something like, "I hope you can forgive me, but I will understand if you need time to make that decision, and realize that I may not receive it."

 

This way, I think that asking for forgiveness would be a way of letting them know that you value the relationship and want to keep it. Whereas if you just apologize but do not clarify that their forgiveness is important to you, it may be understood by the other party that the relationship may just as well end on that note. And in many cases I think this tends to happen after a strong argument or misunderstanding – the parties involved may just keep their distance for some time, and then slowly build the friendship back up. This however would appear to me to be unhealthy, as the problem would not have been dealt with and could very possibly creep back into the relationship.

 

I think that asking for forgiveness may open the way to a real conversation about what happened, and how to avoid it happening again in the relationship, because to ask for something is to accept that you may be turned down and that requires certain vulnerability on the part of the offender.

 

I don't know – does this make sense?

 

Yes, I think that makes sense. Asking for forgiveness could be a way to inquire about where you stand. I think checking in with the person on how they feel is important on the progress to forgiveness. Though I do wonder if just asking how the person is feeling about the incident might be more of a conversation opener than, "Do you forgive me?" Then again, after a lengthy discussion of feelings, responsibility, restitution, and repenting, maybe it is ok to ask about forgiveness. 

 

Being able to ask that question requires a certain level of trust between the individuals. Like, if my mother asked me if I forgave her for her terrible parenting, I would most likely feel scared and not want to answer her. The fear would hinder my honesty, and for good reason as my mother is verbally abusive. But in a voluntary and trusting relationship that would be quite different. 

 

I agree that initiating these conversations while remaining entirely humble and repentant does require vulnerability on the part of the offender. I also think that responding honestly to the question, "Do you forgive me?" requires a certain level of self-awareness on the part of the wronged party. It's difficult to know if the problem is completely resolved, or if sensitivities will come up later unexpectedly. 

 

Continuing to talk about it and keeping the lines of communication open is key though. Walking on eggshells is maddening.