Article on IQ by Malcolm Gladwell

[labmath2]

I am Black myself, so i am biased to potential redemption stories of IQ when it comes to blacks. The notion that blacks are just so far behind is very damning and so i quickly embrace alternative narratives (wherever they may come). Here is the link to the article i would appreciate unbiased feedback or opposing publications.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/none-of-the-above

[Mister Mister]

labmath, can I ask more about how you feel about the topic?  the science all seems to make sense to me, but I would be incredibly anxious to talk about a black person in real life, especially those I've had friendships with.  What is your relation to race in general?  I certainly understand why this would cause anxiety for you, and appreciate your willingness to engage on the topic.

but if you are the exception, which I assume is the case, why should you feel bad about it?  does Yao Ming feel bad that Chinese people are on average shorter?  to me, part of the issue is that blacks in America and other places have developed such a strong group identity, which of course was necessary when fighting against Jim Crowe, but now has outlived its usefulness and become problematic in many ways.

[Coonage]

Using dogs to hunt rabbits, does not make them "alike." Not in any sense of the word.

 

As far as the progression of IQ through generations, I can only think about the stability of the household/upbringing, and it's positive effect on development, as being responsible for the dramatic increase.

 

A 6'5" man, forced to spend his life on all fours, can hardly be considered 'tall.' While I think there exists in many, the genetic potential for exceptional IQ scores; I think far too many people are never given the right conditions, under which to flourish and reach full potential.

[labmath2]

labmath, can I ask more about how you feel about the topic?  the science all seems to make sense to me, but I would be incredibly anxious to talk about a black person in real life, especially those I've had friendships with.  What is your relation to race in general?  I certainly understand why this would cause anxiety for you, and appreciate your willingness to engage on the topic.

 

but if you are the exception, which I assume is the case, why should you feel bad about it?  does Yao Ming feel bad that Chinese people are on average shorter?  to me, part of the issue is that blacks in America and other places have developed such a strong group identity, which of course was necessary when fighting against Jim Crowe, but now has outlived its usefulness and become problematic in many ways.

 

My concern has nothing to do with group identity. I have very little relation with race (I am Nigerian American). Its not that i should feel bad about it, but that i do. I don't think its ever possible to completely dissociate from one's cultural heritage. Especially in a society where the racial difference is ever present (i live in NYC). I cannot help but notice the overabundance of blacks in certain places and their absence in others. Engaging with other black people leaves me disheartened by what it means to be black. Those moments when i get those feelings, it matters.

[Wuzzums]

And the question comes: does a higher IQ make you happier?

 

Let's replace IQ with height seeing how they are so similar in regards to what role genetics play, and how it can have similar effects on economic outcome.

 

Do the same feelings pop up when you hear the phrase "black people are a lot shorter on average"?

 

How do you think Asians people feel about penis size when relating to blacks?

 

Do you think that giving Asians larger genitals and making them more tall and muscular will make them happier? If yes, don't you think it comes from a feeling of superiority rather than inner peace?

 

We spend most of our lives alone, and it doesn't matter how tall or smart we are when there's no one there to witness us.

[labmath2]

Around the 47 minute mark in the video with Stefan and Linda Gottfredson, i think i felt the underlying discomfort in my unwillingness to accept the genetic basis. To use the Yao Ming example, imagine basketball was a big sport in China, but just due to genetic differences, the Chinese will always be at a disadvantage. It would be crushing. Where there is a clash between personal responsibility and genetics, i want to believe in personal responsibility. Maybe it has more to do with my history, but the notion that people have so little control over their lives really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

 

Edit:

 

I think about the women who are born at the upper end of beauty. They still have to exercise, eat healthy, learn other social aspects that really enhance their beauty (like flirting). Is it not their hard work that lands them the successful guy? They could have been born beautiful and squandered their talents. When i think this way for beauty, it feels weird. However, If you have an IQ north of 145, went to school, worked hard and studied to get a good position, the talent is downplayed because it's inconspicuous. Maybe i am just too emotional about this at the moment to see straight.

[Lalilulelo]

Labmath, this racialist stuff is a load of reductionist ideological pseudo-science.
You will find its proponents claiming they accounted for the unfavourable social factors to blacks before evoking racial and genetic theories. But you will find none of them accounting for the methodical wars on blacks, whether it is institutional racism, coups and aborted freedom movements in Africa, flooding entire communities with drugs, funding and promoting crime and base rap culture, etc. Similarly, you will find none of them accounting for the tribalist favouritism amongst the Ashkenazi. I knew it was BS when I heard our own Stef (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o2eKaELGMY), who incidentally was born to an Ashkenazi mother from Germany, say Ashkenazi are exceptionally smart because they suffered oppression; it is therefore amazing how this fantastic evolutionary force that effects great change in a matter of decades failed to do the same with blacks after centuries of slavery and genocide.

So in my opinion, Stef is doing a flip-flop because this is a trendy and appealing position to hold these days. I remember not so long ago he was of the radically different opinion that innate abilities and limitations aside from those which are physical do not exist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1xy15OoZis
I think this is nothing new as we already saw his take on the issue of building a border wall change in a similar dramatic fashion.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Labmath, this racialist stuff is a load of reductionist ideological pseudo-science.

You will find its proponents claiming they accounted for the unfavourable social factors to blacks before evoking racial and genetic theories. But you will find none of them accounting for the methodical wars on blacks, whether it is institutional racism, coups and aborted freedom movements in Africa, flooding entire communities with drugs, funding and promoting crime and base rap culture, etc. Similarly, you will find none of them accounting for the tribalist favouritism amongst the Ashkenazi. I knew it was BS when I heard our own Stef (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o2eKaELGMY), who incidentally was born to an Ashkenazi mother from Germany, say Ashkenazi are exceptionally smart because they suffered oppression; it is therefore amazing how this fantastic evolutionary force that effects great change in a matter of decades failed to do the same with blacks after centuries of slavery and genocide.

 

So in my opinion, Stef is doing a flip-flop because this is a trendy and appealing position to hold these days. I remember not so long ago he was of the radically different opinion that innate abilities and limitations aside from those which are physical do not exist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1xy15OoZis

I think this is nothing new as we already saw his take on the issue of building a border wall change in a similar dramatic fashion.

No argument is provided. Just bigotry...

[TheRobin]

Btw does anyone know if someone ever tried to correlate the amount of spanking into racial IQ comparisons?
 mean, from what I know IQ is also affected by spanking and blacks (at least in the US) seem to spank the most from what I remember (and Asians who are on the high end of IQ spank the least), so I wonder how much the IQ differences would change if that factor would be taken into account (if it hasn't already been taken into account)?

[BaconForAllah]

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[labmath2]

malcolmgladwellbookgenerator.com is dabes

that is glorious.

[Mister Mister]

So in my opinion, Stef is doing a flip-flop because this is a trendy and appealing position to hold these days. I remember not so long ago he was of the radically different opinion that innate abilities and limitations aside from those which are physical do not exist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1xy15OoZis

I think this is nothing new as we already saw his take on the issue of building a border wall change in a similar dramatic fashion.

It is almost always sophistry to assume a person's motivations, whether you say "in my opinion" or not.  Race and genetics and IQ is a trendy and appealing position to hold?  WTF planet do you even live on?  Even within the tiny, fringe, ancap community people don't want to deal with this stuff, much easier to blame all black peoples' problems on the State.  But on the other hand, Stef has some Jewish ancestry so he can't be trusted.

[Mister Mister]

Around the 47 minute mark in the video with Stefan and Linda Gottfredson, i think i felt the underlying discomfort in my unwillingness to accept the genetic basis. To use the Yao Ming example, imagine basketball was a big sport in China, but just due to genetic differences, the Chinese will always be at a disadvantage. It would be crushing. Where there is a clash between personal responsibility and genetics, i want to believe in personal responsibility. Maybe it has more to do with my history, but the notion that people have so little control over their lives really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

 

Edit:

 

I think about the women who are born at the upper end of beauty. They still have to exercise, eat healthy, learn other social aspects that really enhance their beauty (like flirting). Is it not their hard work that lands them the successful guy? They could have been born beautiful and squandered their talents. When i think this way for beauty, it feels weird. However, If you have an IQ north of 145, went to school, worked hard and studied to get a good position, the talent is downplayed because it's inconspicuous. Maybe i am just too emotional about this at the moment to see straight.

 

I was just asking about your relation to race and collectivism before, because I think the people for whom this information will be the most difficult, are those who have invested the most in activism against presumably white supremacist privileged society keeping blacks down.

Basketball IS a big sport in China, the NBA sells more jerseys in China than anywhere else.  The Chinese National team is actually pretty good, but they are indeed at a disadvantage.  I just don't understand why this is "crushing".  Wuzzums point about penis size and genetics is also really great.

 

I don't really want to argue with you necessarily, I'm just really trying to understand your anxiety about the topic.  I don't even mean to say that your anxiety is completely irrational.  For example I completely understand your wanting to stress personal responsibility over genetics.  But we have to go with the data, don't we?  And there is still vast room for improvement in personal responsibility among blacks, not to mention everyone else.

 

I guess I see you as a kind of "canary in the coal mine" for discussing these issues with black people, giving an idea of how someone like you might react to this information...sorry if that sounds annoying, it's just my thinking at the moment.  do you maybe worry that if this information becomes widely accepted, that you will be prejudged as being less intelligent?

[labmath2]

I was just asking about your relation to race and collectivism before, because I think the people for whom this information will be the most difficult, are those who have invested the most in activism against presumably white supremacist privileged society keeping blacks down.

Basketball IS a big sport in China, the NBA sells more jerseys in China than anywhere else. The Chinese National team is actually pretty good, but they are indeed at a disadvantage. I just don't understand why this is "crushing". Wuzzums point about penis size and genetics is also really great.

 

I don't really want to argue with you necessarily, I'm just really trying to understand your anxiety about the topic. I don't even mean to say that your anxiety is completely irrational. For example I completely understand your wanting to stress personal responsibility over genetics. But we have to go with the data, don't we? And there is still vast room for improvement in personal responsibility among blacks, not to mention everyone else.

 

I guess I see you as a kind of "canary in the coal mine" for discussing these issues with black people, giving an idea of how someone like you might react to this information...sorry if that sounds annoying, it's just my thinking at the moment. do you maybe worry that if this information becomes widely accepted, that you will be prejudged as being less intelligent?

Yes, on some level it will affect how people percieve me at a distance. On another level it says there is little hope for black communitues (where i happen t be living at the moment). If regression to the mean is a thing does that mean my progeny will regress to IQ of 85? These are just the few things that come to mind at the moment.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I think you just need to stop being a racist and embrace the facts. If there is little hope for adult black communities as they currently exist, that is a fucking good thing. They're abusive, criminal, parasitic - in a moral society they should have no hope unless they're committed to change their ethical standards. Having a low IQ doesn't necessitate a lack of moral progress, and there is still a huge future uncharted area of peaceful parenting which is no where near being implemented in any community, let alone the black community. So hold out for the best, but remain mentally prepared for the worst which is that black communities won't change (I think they will though).

 

But man, if white people sucked and black people were outperforming them in terms of moving towards a peaceful and rational society, I wouldn't care if all the white people in the world were hopeless but me if they weren't committed to changing their ways. I would hold them fully accountable for their actions. And if there was some difference which made friction between white people and moral progression insurmountable, I would drop them and move my enthusiasm to a community which was committed to moral change, regardless of race. Morality is what matters; it's bigoted to cling to your tribe in the face of their moral deprivations.

 

In my opinion its a huge burden to have to put on this "pro black" filter to every dose of reality you get. Just embrace the facts. Embrace objectivity whenever it is possible. It makes life a hell of a lot less stressful to embrace reality rather than cling to impractical expectations for your race based on your need to see things the way your tribe wants you to.

 

Do you really care what happens to black people, or do you care what happens to humanity? Are you really disappointed if the population of black people decreased significantly as a moral society came about? Or is it the disappointment you're burdening yourself with because your race wants you to view them as more moral and intelligent than they actually are? Don't let them have their cake and it eat it, too. If race doesn't matter towards being virtuous, then it doesn't matter. Period.

 

Last point, this is killing me, just think how much good you could do to overall society if you could speak the truth about black people as a black person. You have an awesome opportunity to kill the narrative in every space you're present, and a lot of white people would appreciate that. I would completely admire that. If I were black, I would use that advantage of novelty and credibility every chance I got to speak the truth about my race. Or at least I would try, I'm not the bravest guy, but I speak out when I think someone will honestly listen to me.

 

Sorry if I came off a little strong, but it's not an easy post to write and I want to make sure I'm being fair to you.

[labmath2]

Matthew, low IQ is also correlated with crime. It was easier to speak to others before the IQ data. I could simply hold them accountable, even with bad parenting. Given what i know about IQ and bad parenting, i now get the sense i was wasting my time. They simply cannot understand me. I once asked a coworker why he feels the need to be hyper aggressive. After the discussion, he agreed that hyper agression was objectively negative but made no commitment to changing. If their problems are partially biological, then moralizing the problem may not be very effective.

 

I do agree that they have nothing to do with me. I am myself, independent of race and ethnicity, but that is easier understood mentally than practiced emotionally. I cannot pretend the i do not feel shame and anger everytime i see a black person doing something ridiculous (like fighting over something trivial). I suppose i just need to do more self work.

[Mister Mister]

Yes, on some level it will affect how people perceive me at a distance. On another level it says there is little hope for black communitues (where i happen t be living at the moment). If regression to the mean is a thing does that mean my progeny will regress to IQ of 85? These are just the few things that come to mind at the moment.

 

I don't necessarily know if either of those things are true.  Maybe the "at a distance" part is true, but it should only take a few minutes of conversation to shake peoples' prejudice.  In the same sense, if I see a skinny Asian guy with glasses, I might suspect he is very smart, but if after talking to him for a minute, he can barely form a coherent sentence, and thinks his Tai Chi training has given him magic powers, I won't hold on to some generalized belief despite evidence.  Only a bigoted racist idiot would, and who cares about what they think anyway?

 

Also, there IS hope for black communities - just look at the great progress they made from 1860-1960 in America, as Dr. Sowell has pointed out.  Like I said earlier, there is huge room for improvement in terms of all peoples' choices and cultural values, especially blacks - stop hitting kids, at least less often and less hard, tone down the religious fundamentalism, stop antagonizing black intellectuals, stop going to the government for all your problems, have kids in stable, loving monogamous families, stop abusing drugs and alcohol, stop blaming white people for all your problems, come to mind for starters.  After 100 years of these kinds of changes, maybe black communities won't look like Asian communities, but so what?  There are also not a lot of great star athletes and entertainers coming out of Asian communities, which is fine if you're not a radical egalitarian.  So I agree and respect your commitment to focus on personal choice rather than biological determinism, I just disagree that this information necessarily takes away choice.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Matthew, low IQ is also correlated with crime. It was easier to speak to others before the IQ data. I could simply hold them accountable, even with bad parenting. Given what i know about IQ and bad parenting, i now get the sense i was wasting my time. They simply cannot understand me. I once asked a coworker why he feels the need to be hyper aggressive. After the discussion, he agreed that hyper agression was objectively negative but made no commitment to changing. If their problems are partially biological, then moralizing the problem may not be very effective.

 

I do agree that they have nothing to do with me. I am myself, independent of race and ethnicity, but that is easier understood mentally than practiced emotionally. I cannot pretend the i do not feel shame and anger everytime i see a black person doing something ridiculous (like fighting over something trivial). I suppose i just need to do more self work.

Yea, I hear you. Did the black guy with aggression have a single mother? It's not just IQ that is the problem with the black community. As Rose said blacks made considerable gains in the past. But right now there seems to be a glob of the black community which is extraordinary traumatized and the trauma calls all the other blacks to support or excuse the ones they think are being "victimized" perhaps, from an evolutionary biology standpoint. 

 

But the truth is they are sucking at the government teet especially dry compared to other communities, and they don't want to stop or realize it's ruining their communities yet. I'm not looking for this to change until the welfare state takes a considerable hit or outright collapses. Of course it is a tragedy since their IQ does disadvantage them, but it's still very rare for higher IQ blacks (100 and up) to call out black single mothers, which are the main cause of their problems. It is like heresy to do such a thing for most black people I've met or noticed, which I am guessing means their mothers hit them a lot. 

 

My main point is you can still definitely hold black people accountable, at least in some regard for their actions. But hold them accountable from a safe distance. Before any solutions can be implemented by black people (peaceful, nuclear family), they need to realize what is wrong first. There are probably a few black guys like you in the fray though, and honestly I think it's awesome that the show was able to connect with you and other blacks who are more intelligent and curious

 

You are the one living in the black community so we will defer to you if you think there are any significant holes in what we are saying