Does spanking really have much of an effect on children?

[ThomasTheIdealist]

Molyneux spoke with Charles Murray who discussed the genetic component of child development, and others such as Steven Pinker have talked about it at length. There seems to be a need of extreme revision to the original hysteria against spanking. Studies are increasingly showing how parenting style has very little effect on children's development and traits. And most studies thrown around here (or by Molyneux) put emphasis on causality while ignoring potential reverse causality (e.g. people spank because they and their kids have lower IQs, they don't have lowers IQs because of the spanking).

 

Molyneux still tries to cling to his conclusions by associating spanking with other substantial traumas (e.g. starvation, routinely locking a child in a closet of days, etc.) which have shown to be a significant environmental influence. But do studies confirm this similarity?

 

And for what it's worth, I've never been spanked nor am I an aggressive person who will likely ever spank children myself. I think spanking is strange and ineffective, but I'm skeptical of the trauma and negative social effects associated with it.

[TheRobin]

I think you're confusing two different things. On the one hand there's little a parent can do in terms of personality traits to influence a child. On the other hand there's a lot one can to to negatively effect a child's development regardless of the potential. Both positions are very well supported by research and you'll find enough evidence for the spanking being harmful in his youtube section on peaceful parenting. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMNj_r5bccUwZY7RCZnS2e5-vjaA7wSNw) 

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I don't want to respond to the content of your post, because how you phrased your post is manipulative, and it therefore shows a fundamental lack of empathy you are willing to extend towards the topic Obviously most people on this board who have been spanked experienced it as traumatic, and have even had to go to therapy to heal from their trauma.

 

Since you've never been spanked, it comes across a bit incredible for you to just claim you're skeptical of the trauma others say they have experienced from being spanked.

 

Sorry I had to edit a few times to check my own reaction

[Kevin Beal]

Studies are increasingly showing how parenting style has very little effect on children's development and traits.

It depends on what studies you focus on. The nature vs nurture debate keeps getting more an more evidence for both sides, and it's been that way for decades. Just as one side seems to look like it's coming out on top, new research comes along to support the other side. The answer of which has a greater effect is an enormously complicated one, and people who talk as if it's certain either way are usually blowing smoke up your ass.

 

NoSpank.net has a lot of resources which support the case against spanking.

 

Also, it's kind of a joke among long time listeners that the degree to which someone refers to Stef as "Molyneux" is the degree to which what they are saying is nonsense. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with it, it just seems to have the effect of depersonalizing someone, which makes it easier to implicate a person in incompetence or corruption. I don't refer to people I like by their last names, for example. If I comment on a Peter Schiff video, I refer to him as Peter.

 

But maybe it's a cultural thing, like how they do in Japan.

[Will Torbald]

Molyneux spoke with Charles Murray who discussed the genetic component of child development, and others such as Steven Pinker have talked about it at length. There seems to be a need of extreme revision to the original hysteria against spanking. Studies are increasingly showing how parenting style has very little effect on children's development and traits. And most studies thrown around here (or by Molyneux) put emphasis on causality while ignoring potential reverse causality (e.g. people spank because they and their kids have lower IQs, they don't have lowers IQs because of the spanking).

 

Molyneux still tries to cling to his conclusions by associating spanking with other substantial traumas (e.g. starvation, routinely locking a child in a closet of days, etc.) which have shown to be a significant environmental influence. But do studies confirm this similarity?

 

And for what it's worth, I've never been spanked nor am I an aggressive person who will likely ever spank children myself. I think spanking is strange and ineffective, but I'm skeptical of the trauma and negative social effects associated with it.

 

Since you've never been spanked, and you're skeptical, the only thing you can do to change your mind is to be open to the testimonies of those who have and the research of the consequences of it. To remain stubborn while saying "there seems to be a need" isn't really doing anything productive. You either want to learn, or you want to say you don't want to learn.

[ThomasTheIdealist]

Compared to what? Verbal abuse and neglect? It's not like parents who don't spank aren't abusive in other ways.

 

Sources for your claim about parenting? I would like to see what they are actually comparing.

No, common levels of verbal abuse and neglect have little effect too from what I understand.

 

Good 20 minute TED talk:

 

Article with relevant information: http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter-and-why-most-social-science-research-is-probably-wrong/

 

Some studies in the references section of that article. From that article:

 

Children who are spanked (not abused, but spanked) often experience a host of other problems in life, including psychological maladjustment and behavioral problems. In a study led by my colleague J.C. Barnes, we probed this issue in more detail and found some evidence suggesting that spanking increased the occurrence of overt bad behavior in children. We could have stopped there. Yet, we went one step further and attempted to inspect the genetic influences that were rampant across the measures included in our study. What we found was that much of the association between the two variables (spanking and behavior) was attributable to genetic effects that they had in common. The correlation between spanking and behavior appeared to reflect the presence of shared genetic influences cutting across both traits.

The study of the above is found here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21898451

 

From what I've read, the top contributing favors to cognitive and behavioral development seem to be genetic, immediate social group/peers, and (some like Charles Murray conclude) religiosity.

 

Your skepticism about its traumatic effects are unfounded, and quite frankly you come across as a dick with such a careless statement when you've never been spanked yourself.

Hopefully you'll see from the links above that it's not founded. And my statement about me not being spanked was purely preemptive, since I've been criticized before for trying to justify something that either I do, or something that was done to me. I have no dog in the fight, it doesn't bother me if spanking does or doesn't have a strong effect on children, my behavior wouldn't only change if spanking was found to be positive (which I've seen nothing showing this). On the other hand, people who are involved in spanking (having been spanked or otherwise) are more likely to have some bias they want to support.

[ProfessionalTeabagger]

If you're right and spanking has little or no effect then there'd be even less reason to spank. Why take the risk of spanking if it has little or no effect? So the no-spanking case wins either way.

 

 the original hysteria against spanking.

 

And most studies thrown around here (or by Molyneux) 

 

Molyneux still tries to cling to his conclusions 

 

So you're saying the positions agianst spanking were hysterical (rather than reasoned), the studies were just "thrown around" (rather than used in a valid way to support the arguments) and Stefan "clings to his conclusions" (rather than accepts them as a result of sound reasoning)?

Do you have any evidence for those claims? 

[Mister Mister]

I think studies by Elizabeth Gershoff and others, took this into consideration, and found that over time, spanking lowers IQ.  But IQ is just one thing.  The real negative effects of panking is that it confuses and negatively conditions childrens' understanding of pain, touch, love, authority, and morality.  It teaches them to dominate others or to submit to others, rather than negotiate.  The Bomb in the Brain presentation covers this very well, and shows how those subjected to corporal punishment, have an exaggerated amygdala response to conflict.

Why is it important to you to justify hitting children?  I can assume you were hit...what is your relation to those who hit you?  Do you have children that you hit? 

[Wuzzums]

Even if for the sake of argument we assume spanking has very little if any long term effects, it still remains an immoral act.

[dsayers]

Even if for the sake of argument we assume spanking has very little if any long term effects, it still remains an immoral act.

This. In addition, it should be pointed out that the only thing you can achieve with violence that you cannot achieve without violence is violence.

[Jot]

Someone deserves a spanking...

 

OP, do you have any idea who that might be?

 

 

On a serious note...everytime you make and argument like this just replace "children" with "wife" and you might see why people here would be reluctant to engage with you in any empathetic way. 

 

The reason you should be against spanking is not because of spanking studies...it is because it is wrong.

[rosencrantz]

You can put the question more abstractly. Does parenting matter? There is one way to test this hypothesis. You can have a look at the way adopted children develop into a socioeconomic status. If their status is similar overall to the parents that adopted them, then parenting has a big impact. If adopted kids and their economic status resembles their biological parents then parenting as a predictor for success later in life can be discarded. 

http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs144-bryan-caplan-on-does-parenting-matter.html

[labmath2]

Please don't downvote me, but i would like to know why rosencrantz was downvoted. His contribution seems valid.

[Slavik]

Molyneux spoke with Charles Murray who discussed the genetic component of child development, and others such as Steven Pinker have talked about it at length. There seems to be a need of extreme revision to the original hysteria against spanking. Studies are increasingly showing how parenting style has very little effect on children's development and traits. And most studies thrown around here (or by Molyneux) put emphasis on causality while ignoring potential reverse causality (e.g. people spank because they and their kids have lower IQs, they don't have lowers IQs because of the spanking).

 

Molyneux still tries to cling to his conclusions by associating spanking with other substantial traumas (e.g. starvation, routinely locking a child in a closet of days, etc.) which have shown to be a significant environmental influence. But do studies confirm this similarity?

 

And for what it's worth, I've never been spanked nor am I an aggressive person who will likely ever spank children myself. I think spanking is strange and ineffective, but I'm skeptical of the trauma and negative social effects associated with it.

From what I remember the topic involved IQ and not development.  IQ being a genetic factor, was the point contested not the rest of the development.  Development includes emotional intelligence which further encompasses ability to deal with stress, risk taking, further development of addictions, aggression and so on.  

 

It is not enough to have high IQ in order to be successful in life, you need to be a well adjusted individual to be happy, damage that spanking (or just hitting) creates has a very lasting effect on the body as well as emotional well being.  If you hit a child you possible are taking away his or her future happiness and success.