Where I am right now

[neeeel]

Its been a year since I found FDR. After listening to a few of the podcasts, and reading a lot of the board, I realised I needed to get in to therapy. so I have been a year in therapy, and I feel stuck. I think my therapist is great. He realises the importance of childhood experience, and is constantly gently bringing me back to look at how my experience was, how I felt then, what the effects are.He is good at reflecting anger or hurt at some of the experiences I had as a child.And yet, I still dont trust him, I am barely ever emotional in therapy( or outside), he points out that I am never relaxed, that I am always sitting on the edge of the seat as if I expect to be asked to leave, or as if I dont feel like I can really be there. I think I have been really emotional 2 or 3 times, the rest of the time I sit and relate things in a pretty monotone voice. I dont maintain eye contact, although I will occasionally look at him.

 

When I was lying in bed last night, I felt really pathetic and useless. Like it was useless for me to try and "change" or get self knowledge. I suppose the belief is that I am inherently flawed in some way, that unhappiness is what is in store for me, that not being able to relate to or trust people is just "how I am", that instant angry reaction to criticism or mockery or insults is the way I am, and the way I will always be. I cant really explain exactly what I mean here, I suppose its like a self image I have.

 

I suppose I expect that the way I feel about things will change or stop, and thats how I will know that I am "better". I am expecting that I wont feel uncomfortable around people, or that I wont feel rejected or sad when certain things happen. Am I mistaken here? Am I looking at it wrong? Is it rather, that the feelings will continue, but I will gradually come to recognise them, and see that those feelings are not necessarily related to whats happening in the moment? 

 

I spend most of my time on the PC, I am guessing that its self medication. I occasionally feel very empty , and I have noticed that rather than stay with that, I will turn back to the PC and look for something to do.

 

I dont really have a specific question for people to answer. Would be interested to hear peoples thoughts. Perhaps this is all just self pity ( or maybe thinking its self pity is part of the pathetic and useless self image I have)

[Joe the Hobo]

I hate the term "self pity" as it was used to disregard a lot of my genuine, strong, negative emotions as a child. If my mother had explored them with me it would have changed everything, so please, change everything for yourself now! never disregard this as self pity! you are reaching out in a time of need! That is not self pity.

Examine your feelings, get some insight, I would advise getting some cognitive behavioral therapy to change your underlying negative paradigm (which I think you expressed excellently). Although I've been able to change a lot of negative underlying paradigms through greater perspective (the "zoom out" Stefan sometimes talks about in his shows). I'd sugest that it may help you to find something humbling and enjoy that connecting to reality which really puts things in perspective.

[AccuTron]

...

 

I suppose I expect that the way I feel about things will change or stop, and thats how I will know that I am "better". I am expecting that I wont feel uncomfortable around people, or that I wont feel rejected or sad when certain things happen. Am I mistaken here? Am I looking at it wrong? Is it rather, that the feelings will continue, but I will gradually come to recognise them, and see that those feelings are not necessarily related to whats happening in the moment? 

 

I spend most of my time on the PC, I am guessing that its self medication. I occasionally feel very empty , and I have noticed that rather than stay with that, I will turn back to the PC and look for something to do....

 

Some aspects of what you describe remind me strongly of myself in past years.  A process of years of self healing, great therapist, alas the other people were causing trouble, not helping.  If you have good guidance, you're on the way, and here you'll have more help.  

 

More specifically, I am now a person ​who I LITERALLY could not even imagine at the beginning of my journey.  You may have fantastic reward awaiting you, but you cannot yet see ahead on the trail that far.  Tho' some of your remarks suggest that you are seeing pretty well.

 

In darkest times, I discovered the difference between faith and hope.  When things seem hopeless, no possible vision of goodness, still have faith that it's there ahead, you just can't see or imagine it.  We aren't omniscient.  At a practical level, I put it as "No matter how down you feel, keep brushing and flossing, for the future that may lie ahead."

 

I spend much time on my Mac.  At times of very great distress, it's been a welcome self medication, but at that point, a nap is usually better.  Mostly, it's a search for...what?  Some kind of improvement.  I am using and refining my mind constantly, I look at grand old movies online and feel grandly amused and relaxed.  I ferociously online game, and the way I do it, it's a full body workout.  (Keep the wrists relaxed.)  I learn huge amounts of stuff.  No cat pix, but I like Ten Cats Comic.  You're not wasting time, you're cogitating.  Just move around now and then.

[Mister Mister]

I really have little/no expertise in these areas, so I hesitate to comment, but when you say you felt it is useless for you to change, I wonder if that is a particular aspect of yourself, related to your history.  Rather than fight or resist this urge, or give in to it, I might be curious about this part of you, and why it is afraid of or resistant to change.  Is there someone in your past or present life who doesn't want you to change?  I hope that helps.  Kudos on your hard work and determination.

[neeeel]

thanks to everyone who replied.

 

I hate the term "self pity" as it was used to disregard a lot of my genuine, strong, negative emotions as a child. If my mother had explored them with me it would have changed everything, so please, change everything for yourself now! never disregard this as self pity! you are reaching out in a time of need! That is not self pity.

Examine your feelings, get some insight, I would advise getting some cognitive behavioral therapy to change your underlying negative paradigm (which I think you expressed excellently). Although I've been able to change a lot of negative underlying paradigms through greater perspective (the "zoom out" Stefan sometimes talks about in his shows). I'd sugest that it may help you to find something humbling and enjoy that connecting to reality which really puts things in perspective.

 

I think that the therapy I currently have is at least part cognitive therapy. Look at your feelings and beliefs, are they true, do they apply to the present situation.

 

What sort of things do you suggest that are "humbling and enjoy that connecting to reality"? 

 

I agree that self pity is perhaps a self attacking term. Perhaps I have in my head someone telling me to "just get on with it and stop whining".

 

Some aspects of what you describe remind me strongly of myself in past years.  A process of years of self healing, great therapist, alas the other people were causing trouble, not helping.  If you have good guidance, you're on the way, and here you'll have more help.  

 

More specifically, I am now a person ​who I LITERALLY could not even imagine at the beginning of my journey.  You may have fantastic reward awaiting you, but you cannot yet see ahead on the trail that far.  Tho' some of your remarks suggest that you are seeing pretty well.

 

In darkest times, I discovered the difference between faith and hope.  When things seem hopeless, no possible vision of goodness, still have faith that it's there ahead, you just can't see or imagine it.  We aren't omniscient.  At a practical level, I put it as "No matter how down you feel, keep brushing and flossing, for the future that may lie ahead."

 

I spend much time on my Mac.  At times of very great distress, it's been a welcome self medication, but at that point, a nap is usually better.  Mostly, it's a search for...what?  Some kind of improvement.  I am using and refining my mind constantly, I look at grand old movies online and feel grandly amused and relaxed.  I ferociously online game, and the way I do it, it's a full body workout.  (Keep the wrists relaxed.)  I learn huge amounts of stuff.  No cat pix, but I like Ten Cats Comic.  You're not wasting time, you're cogitating.  Just move around now and then.

 

I think I dont see the reward. I dont see whats in it for me if I become more open, outgoing, friendly, trusting, I dont know. I cant imagine what having friends would be like. All those things are undesirable in some way. I know on an intellectual basis that humans are social creatures, with a need for bonding, social interaction. That doesnt translate into recognising my need for that. In fact , it seems to be the opposite, I can see the need for the opposite of that, if that makes sense.

 

I really have little/no expertise in these areas, so I hesitate to comment, but when you say you felt it is useless for you to change, I wonder if that is a particular aspect of yourself, related to your history.  Rather than fight or resist this urge, or give in to it, I might be curious about this part of you, and why it is afraid of or resistant to change.  Is there someone in your past or present life who doesn't want you to change?  I hope that helps.  Kudos on your hard work and determination.

 

Yes, I am very resistant to change. Which might seem contradictory, given that I am in therapy and looking for change. I wonder if I am looking for a miracle cure.We have just started to touch on this resistance in therapy, maybe it will become clearer after we have explored it a bit. It feels like change is very dangerous to me.

[Mister Mister]

 

Yes, I am very resistant to change. Which might seem contradictory, given that I am in therapy and looking for change. I wonder if I am looking for a miracle cure.We have just started to touch on this resistance in therapy, maybe it will become clearer after we have explored it a bit. It feels like change is very dangerous to me.

 

Maybe change is only dangerous to a part of you, that you haven't gotten to know yet.  Who is this part and why is it afraid or resistant to change?

[neeeel]

 

Maybe change is only dangerous to a part of you, that you haven't gotten to know yet.  Who is this part and why is it afraid or resistant to change?

 

A lot of it is to do with not growing up, not becoming like "them", I would say this part is about 6 or 7 years old, but maybe also a lot of teenager mixed in.

[Mister Mister]

A lot of it is to do with not growing up, not becoming like "them", I would say this part is about 6 or 7 years old, but maybe also a lot of teenager mixed in.

becoming like whom?

[neeeel]

becoming like whom?

 

 

My parents, mostly, but any adult in general.

[Mister Mister]

You don't want to change because you don't want to become like your parents?  Can you unpack this for me?

[neeeel]

change = growing up. Growing up = becoming like parents. I dont want to become like my parents.

 

( of course, change might not necessarily = growing up, and growing up might not necessarily = becoming like my parents, but thats how I picture it,)

 

My parents seemed to me to be full of stupid arbitrary rules, to be illogical, unkind, I felt very strongly that I needed to protect myself, and that meant rejecting the stuff they tried to put on me. 

[neeeel]

I find great comfort in nuance. In recognizing that not all musicians are like my ex-husband, for example. Recognizing counterexamples can bring shades of gray to a question that may appear black and white. In your case, does it help to visualize successful adults, who you may want to emulate?

 

 

 

I am finding it hard to think of any adult that I want to emulate. At some point , they "sold out" to some extent or another. I can realise that "selling out" might actually be making compromises, or choosing something that seemed more important to them over some other thing, but thats only an intellectual understanding. My gut feeling is of "danger, stay away" when it comes to thinking about "being an adult"

 

I am an adult by any definition. I get that ( intellectually, at least). Perhaps these are "childish" pictures of how the world works. but I end up in a vicious circle, because by challenging these "childish" pictures, I am feeling the panic and "danger, stay away", if that makes sense

 

 

 

Or another thing I was thinking is: doesn't remaining inert and 'unsuccessful,' by their definition, satisfy their grim predictions for you? What about rebelling against that?

 

 

Its funny that, by rebelling against them and everything they stand for, I have ended up where they are, alone, isolated, unemotional.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I think there is a lot to be said about aligning your expectations of how you think you should feel according to what is realistic consider the abuse you've endured and the amount of time you have spent doing self work to understand it. If you are attempting to solve a problem without dealing with the root cause of childhood trauma and the patterns they developed, then this is going to lead to frustration. Usually consistent frustration is really just ruthless self attack, and what can help alleviate this is to not expect as much from yourself if you are not achieving your expectations of how you want to feel. 

 

Many times just accepting something you are doing which you are at least partially upset with yourself about (like spending so much time on PC) and instead just spend time on PC and notice when you stop enjoying it. If you never stop enjoying it, welcome to nirvana! If you do at some point, and you will if you try and test the limits of how much fulfillment you can get from using the PC, then at least you can acknowledge that emotion of frustration. Maybe it will come in so hot and heavy that you will realize the frustration started much earlier, and that your body has developed incredibly effective ways of hiding your frustration from you until it hits some sort of breaking point.

 

At that point I would only hope you would try to see the severity of what is in front of you, and keep it in your mind that you now know you have this pattern of hiding frustration until it is no longer tolerable. What do decide to do from there is up to you Neeel, but if your desire is to become more self knowledgeable than therapy is probably a necessity in some degree since the pattern has been going on for so long.

 

I'm really sorry you had these terrible feelings and I wish you better, if you don't mind me saying.

[neeeel]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I appreciate your response.

 

 

I think there is a lot to be said about aligning your expectations of how you think you should feel according to what is realistic consider the abuse you've endured and the amount of time you have spent doing self work to understand it. If you are attempting to solve a problem without dealing with the root cause of childhood trauma and the patterns they developed, then this is going to lead to frustration. Usually consistent frustration is really just ruthless self attack, and what can help alleviate this is to not expect as much from yourself if you are not achieving your expectations of how you want to feel. 

 

 

 

Yes, Expectations are a big one. Its good to remember, for example, that stefan was going to therapy twice a week for 3 years, or something, so thats 6 years worth of therapy once a week. I have done 1 year, so im 1/6th of the way to what he did. It helps to keep things in perspective

I also wonder if I am expecting the stuff I feel to just stop, ie I wont feel bad any more and thats how I know Im "cured", and perhaps thats not a realistic expectation?

 

 

Many times just accepting something you are doing which you are at least partially upset with yourself about (like spending so much time on PC) and instead just spend time on PC and notice when you stop enjoying it. If you never stop enjoying it, welcome to nirvana! If you do at some point, and you will if you try and test the limits of how much fulfillment you can get from using the PC, then at least you can acknowledge that emotion of frustration. Maybe it will come in so hot and heavy that you will realize the frustration started much earlier, and that your body has developed incredibly effective ways of hiding your frustration from you until it hits some sort of breaking point

 

I feel like I could just continue on like I am, forever, and that wouldnt be so bad, in a way. And then every so often I will feel an intense emptiness, or something, its hard to describe. I suppose that is whats prompting me to look into all of this. I do get a lot of enjoyment out of the PC so, yes, you are right, I should acknowledge that

 

 

 

 

At that point I would only hope you would try to see the severity of what is in front of you, and keep it in your mind that you now know you have this pattern of hiding frustration until it is no longer tolerable. What do decide to do from there is up to you Neeel, but if your desire is to become more self knowledgeable than therapy is probably a necessity in some degree since the pattern has been going on for so long.

 

I'm really sorry you had these terrible feelings and I wish you better, if you don't mind me saying.

 

 

 

Thank you for your support. I am already in therapy, I think part of my frustration and what prompted my OP was that I couldnt see any progress, even after 1 year. Perhaps that is too early to be looking for progress( what would progress look like, anyway?), or perhaps Im not fully committed and am just playing, still testing out the waters.

[AccuTron]

neeeel: "I also wonder if I am expecting the stuff I feel to just stop, ie I wont feel bad any more and thats how I know Im "cured", and perhaps thats not a realistic expectation?"

 

Back in the late nineties, I went into a few years of therapy.  I was extremely messed up in the beginning.  I had absolute rat parents, which I could not comprehend at the time.  (Sure do now.)  

 

For so long, I felt horrid despair going to my appointments.  That gradually lessened, and one day, when we would've been setting up the next appointment, my therapist said "Well, I think you're done."  And I realized he was right!  

 

So essentially, what happened is what you described above, and I consider it a very realistic expectation, assuming everyone does their homework.

 

Be clear that "done" didn't mean totally done, it meant that I could continue on my own.  We'd worked out the big pieces, and I was vastly healthier.

[Filip S]

Hey Neeeel,

 

I wanted to point out a few things that I've noticed (my opinion, and subject to correction), but before that, let me give you accolades on going into therapy! That's a big step in and of itself, and shows that you have a commitment to self-knowledge and healing yourself. Additionally, congratulations on "getting emotional" with your therapist. Yes, it may have only been two or three times, but that is nothing to scoff at. 

 

I think you are growing to trust your therapist, as proven by your following statement of "lying in bed." It sounds like you heard your therapist's observation of you not being able to relax and tried it. That night, were you actively trying to relax? Also, these feelings of being pathetic and useless - do they usually come at night?

[neeeel]

 

 

I think you are growing to trust your therapist, as proven by your following statement of "lying in bed." It sounds like you heard your therapist's observation of you not being able to relax and tried it. That night, were you actively trying to relax? Also, these feelings of being pathetic and useless - do they usually come at night?

 

I wasnt actively trying to relax, no. I had been feeling kind of empty in the evening, was thinking about how I would turn back to the PC rather than stay with the empty feeling, and was thinking about how it didnt seem like I was getting anywhere in therapy, or that I wasnt able to open up. So when I got to bed, it was just a continuation of the train of thoughts from before, I think

 

its hard for me to be sure, as I havent been keeping count, but it doesnt seem like the feelings of being pathetic and useless come more often at night. I suppose I might notice them more at night because I am not paying attention to the PC.

[Filip S]

One possibility is that the empty feeling you feel is justified. If you looked at your day, would you say you were happy with what you were doing? 

 

I'm guessing if you spent the whole day on the PC, you wasted your day. And that's okay! These things are okay to do from time to time. For you, you probably do too much of this stuff. You want to change, I can see that, but it's not going to be easy. In fact, it's going to suck - but it beats the alternative.

 

The PC is one of my weaknesses, and I've lost many a days on it. I was on the computer one day, wondering what I was doing with my life. I was feeling self-pity, despair, worthlessness, and all these depressive feelings. I thought to myself, well fuck, I didn't do anything with my day. I got angry, and told myself: my life is my own, I should be a man and live on my own. (Currently, I'm living with my parents, so moving out is a goal of mine). Like I'm in charge of my own destiny, why not go and do what others do effortlessly? Straight up go and try it!!

 

The instant I set out to do what I was avoiding, the moment I tried it, I knew instantly why I didn't do it. Anxiety washed over me like you wouldn't believe. For myself, I've noticed an ebb and flow to my emotions, I have despair and self-pity on one hand when I don't do anything with my day, on the other hand I have anxiety and panic. It's a shitty situation, for sure, it's painful as hell - probably the most painful thing I've ever done. I bounce back and forth, sometimes the anxiety gets the better of me and I stop what I'm doing - but then I realize I hate the feeling of self-loathing more and get back to it. As shit as the situation is, I've gained some valuable insight - I've learned a bit more about my emotions and how they work. (anxiety vs depression) I take some pride in that. 

 

You may feel like you're stuck, and that your feelings are so far away from you - that's just not true. If you don't believe me, just try doing those things that you are avoiding: trusting your therapist, looking that therapist deeply in the eyes, not spending hours on the computer, relaxing your mind and body.

 

You may be skeptical, but entertain me at your next therapist session. Just go ahead and trust him, look into his or her eyes. Screw what's holding you back! Do it! See what happens. I don't know if you'll react with anxiety like myself, but you will know, deep down, what your reaction is. It's so hard, I know! I know! I want you to know you can do it and I believe in you!!

 

Where you're at is wonderful, please don't take this as a chastisement or anything of that sort. Understand that self-knowledge is going to be the HARDEST thing you're ever going to do. FDR is not for the faint of heart. You, neeeel, are not faint, nor are you weak. Be gentle to yourself, and your progress. Don't chastise yourself but be HONEST. Look at what you're doing without negative judgement, when you do spend that time on the computer rather than on your goals, don't get down on yourself. Acknowledge it, accept it, and plug on!

[tux]

Are you doing any self knowledge work in between your therapy sessions? One thing would be to write a diary. I think putting thoughts into words on a paper (or as binary data) helps you define what you feel and lets you see any changes in your emotional life as time goes on. It is challenging at the beginning to express your thoughts in text, but it gets better.

 

There are plenty of great things you can do with your computer, but it is also a common tool for procrastination. Do you often feel that it is an escape from everyday life?

[neeeel]

 

neeeel: "I also wonder if I am expecting the stuff I feel to just stop, ie I wont feel bad any more and thats how I know Im "cured", and perhaps thats not a realistic expectation?"

 

Back in the late nineties, I went into a few years of therapy.  I was extremely messed up in the beginning.  I had absolute rat parents, which I could not comprehend at the time.  (Sure do now.)  

 

For so long, I felt horrid despair going to my appointments.  That gradually lessened, and one day, when we would've been setting up the next appointment, my therapist said "Well, I think you're done."  And I realized he was right!  

 

So essentially, what happened is what you described above, and I consider it a very realistic expectation, assuming everyone does their homework.

 

Be clear that "done" didn't mean totally done, it meant that I could continue on my own.  We'd worked out the big pieces, and I was vastly healthier.

 

 

Thanks for your input. Its interesting that I feel a bit of fear about my therapist saying to me "Your done!". I am starting to rely on his support and kindness, I think

 

Are you doing any self knowledge work in between your therapy sessions? One thing would be to write a diary. I think putting thoughts into words on a paper (or as binary data) helps you define what you feel and lets you see any changes in your emotional life as time goes on. It is challenging at the beginning to express your thoughts in text, but it gets better.

 

There are plenty of great things you can do with your computer, but it is also a common tool for procrastination. Do you often feel that it is an escape from everyday life?

 

My main self knowledge work outside of therapy is FDR, listen to podcasts, talk on chat, read posts. I did start a diary a year ago, but I only write about once a week, usually about what happens at my voluntary work, I suppose its only when I actually go outside and interact with people that I notice stuff and feel stuff.

 

I think that even if I was much healthier and more outgoing, I would still use the PC a lot, but yes, I think it is a convenient way to occupy my mind and avoid going out, interacting, or having to pay attention to feelings.

[AccuTron]

"Thanks for your input. Its interesting that I feel a bit of fear about my therapist saying to me "Your done!". I am starting to rely on his support and kindness, I think"

 

Which is fine; you're in the phase where that's exactly what you need.  Sounds familiar to me, those distant years ago.  (We wouldn't want the ship captain to debark the passenger while still far from shore!)  When you get stronger...a gradual process...you'll have less need to feel that, it will probably just evaporate.