Finding a Virtuous Woman as a Young Man: Now or Later?

[shnugwa]

Hello, folks!

There may be no objective and quantifiable way to answer the question I'd like to pose to you, but I'd sincerely appreciate any thoughts and insight you can offer on the subject! I am interested in securing for myself a heterosexual monogamous relationship with an intelligent and virtuous woman.

 

The question I'm wrestling with is:

 

Should I work hard to find a virtuous woman to enjoy life with now at age 20, or later after I've accumulated more resources?

Related subjects of interest for this discussion include: Sexual market value, how to meet new women, online dating, and life planning

 

This is a very important question to me. I feel like I'm finally healthy enough as a man to attract and be worthy of the kind of woman I dream of. I've been to nine months of IFS therapy with an amazing therapist, have had almost a thousand hours of emotionally-connected, challenging, empathetic and rewarding conversations with my closest friends who are all Freedomain Radio listeners, and have been working diligently for a long time to understand my childhood and adolescent traumas, process them, and heal from them. I am in a remarkably unique situation which would drastically favor my odds, and I think it's appropriate to relay the reasons in my mind why I think it would be a good idea for me to begin the search now for a partner. However, as I will discuss, I am feeling hesitant to begin due to a lack of dating knowledge and experience. This has me wondering whether or not I should wait until I accumulate more resources first. I have attempted to remain impartial in the following self-assessment of my strengths. These are the reasons why I believe it is high-time for me to put myself out there.

• Financially, I have tens of thousands of dollars in assets saved. Beyond any doubt in my mind, I will be making enough money to fully support myself with my business plans by time I turn 21 this July. Presently, I am operating my budget at a significant loss so that I may live on my own and run my own online business promoting precious metals and preserving freedom. I have enough money to comfortably live an entire year, ALL expenses included, with no income whatsoever; however I have formulated articulate and actionable plans to generate more profit than life expenses by the end of June. This means that (if all goes according to plan) I will be 100% financially secure and independent by the age of 21 and living a richly rewarding existence doing that which I'm genuinely passionate about. Molyneux has often said that in order to attract great people into your life, one must shine the beacon of virtue bright into the sky so that all those who are in tune with the signal and able to recognize virtue on sight may find their way to the signal's origin. Basically, my hope is that by doing the work that I do and successfully making a living out of it, I will be not only living the life of my dreams, but more attractive to the woman of my dreams.
•  
• Emotionally, I am in the greatest health of my life. I have worked arduously to emerge from a depressive slump, marijuana addiction, and irrational paranoia through many months of intensive work in therapy. My level of self-confidence has increased greatly since the massive blow it took from my previous dysfunctional relationship prior to exploring self-knowledge. Through practice in hundreds of hours of difficult conversations in building virtue-based friendships, I am able to empathize now like never before! My parents and I are in the process of having many difficult conversations about my upbringing - venomous verbal abuse, manipulation, and blarping were unfortunately all central to my childhood. However, I feel hope with regards to my relationship to my parents as their willingness to accept responsibility and apologize for their wrong doings is a good sign in my eye. I believe that the work I am doing will prove to be instrumental in attracting a woman of virtue. However, I have a very long road ahead of me until I have fully resolved every conceivable issue. Yet, I feel healthy enough to begin the search! I do not know if it is necessary to process 100% of one's childhood prior to looking for a partner. Hell, some people process 0% of theirs. What are your thoughts on this???
•  
• Mentally, I'm very intelligent and articulate. My verbal IQ clocks in at around 140 and I would consider myself to be a gifted communicator, both written and verbally. This will arguably serve me well in any undertaking I choose for the rest of my life. With regards to dating, I know that for myself, intelligence is a key trait I'm looking for in a lover. I'd like to marry a woman with an IQ of 120 or more (top ~10%). I am charismatic and feel that I am confident enough to engage in meaningful conversations even with woman of great beauty, which long ago would have made me too nervous. I think it's fair to say that my ideal partner would find intelligence and charisma attractive, and fair to say that I'd be able to satisfy at least those criteria.
•  
• Physically, I consider myself to be quite lucky. By genetic accident, I am quite handsome. Others in my life have consistently rated me as a 9/10 on the scale of physical attractiveness, and I work out 2-3 times per week to build upon my athletic body. Let me be clear, I do not consider this to even remotely resemble a virtue, nor is matching physical attractiveness a "must" for me to feel satisfied in a virtue-based relationship. However, I know for a fact that this happens to increase my sexual market value, and my physique will only continue to improve as I continue living a healthy and active lifestyle.
•  
• Personality-wise, I'm quite enjoyable to spend time with. I've got a strong sense of humor, am able to craft witty jokes, and have a great capacity for both intellectual and emotionally connected conversation. I'm a very compassionate and gentle person with a capacity for toughness and strength when the need arises. Sadly, I haven't spent much of any time with women my age over the past two years. I find that I have remarkably little in common with the "average" 18-21 year old, as I am more emotionally-matured than the vast majority of people in my age group.

tl;dr? It may be a wise decision for me to begin the hunt for a fair and virtuous maiden now because I (think I) will have high dating market value, and I hold many virtues that a virtuous woman would find attractive. However, it is perhaps of even greater importance to now mention my shortcomings and why I feel hesitant to fully commit to putting myself out there on the dating market yet. These are the reasons why I think it could be better to wait until I've accumulated more resources.

 

• I lack dating experience! I've only been in one committed monogamous relationship which lasted for a year and four months. The relationship was overall very dysfunctional; we didn't share the same values, didn't share the same interests, didn't share the same level of intelligence, didn't get along 1/4th of the time, and my ex was a highly manipulative girl whom I allowed to pussy-whip me into being a little beta. Needless to say, while I now have many months and hundreds of hours of experience in having quality friendships, I don't have anything to model a quality romantic relationship off of.
• I lack sexual experience! In my previous relationship, despite having lost my virginity and having had sex dozens of times, I do not feel presently that I am "sexually experienced". My ex never really seemed to enjoy many of our sexual interactions, and often used sex to manipulate me into submission. This originally made me actually feel quite horrible about myself, which is just so terribly saddening to me now. I wanted so very much to explore, to try new things, and to learn how to better please a woman and for good reason! Sexual intimacy is a beautiful, wonderful part of any romantic relationship; I'd strive to please my partner like no other once the relationship got that far. Unfortunately at the time, I felt sexually rejected repeatedly which proved harmful to my self-esteem. Frankly, in retrospect I don't believe the problem was entirely me. I'm reasonably well-endowed and my partner had sexual trauma which hadn't been processed. Nonetheless, this lacking of experience may not work in my favor.
• I hardly know where the fuck to begin. How the hell do you guys meet women? Married gentlemen, how did you meet your wife?! I can't go to bars or clubs (not that I'd even really expect to find interesting people there [perhaps I am wrong?!]), and although I've made MANY new male friends from FDR, I've only met intelligent, captivating women who are either much older than I or live in different continents. I've created an okcupid account, and have found a few potential leads of intelligent women who are interested in philosophy living within 100 miles of me. That is, at least, a start. I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts and insight on this!!!
• I'm not financially secure yet. My online business will generate the revenue I need to survive from affiliate marketing of products and services which I have used and trust, in addition to selling digital information products (eBooks, online courses) and precious metals (silver, gold). Would a good woman recognize the value in the content that I am producing, the good will that I exude in my work, and look past my (temporary) financial situation in interest of my other virtues? Would she not care that I'm running at a loss while I grow a following and build my business from the ground up? Or would she scoff at the notion of what I'm doing with my life and disregard my ambition to follow my passions until their fruits could be harvested? I really hope the latter is not entirely the case.
• I dropped out of college pursuing a degree in Computer Engineering to become an entrepreneur instead. Some women, I would imagine, greatly prefer a man who has high income potential, and a college degree is a good indicator of that status. I'll not have one unless something drastic changes, so that may work against me too. It would seem that if I am already wealthy, as I plan to be, that I can bypass this "blemish" on my potential dating market value.

Ultimately, this is a massive decision that I think I need help and perspective on. I don't know if there are things that I am overlooking, underestimating, over-exaggerating, or conflating in my analysis of the situation I'm in. Fortunately, from my perspective, I appear to be in a great starting place compared to where I imagine most 20 year old men are at. I would sincerely appreciate your thoughts, bright minds of the Freedomain Radio community. Thanks for both your time and consideration in reading this.

I would be more than happy to take the time to answer any questions or provide clarifications. I greatly look forward to engaging with you in substantive discussion on this subject which I believe is likely highly relevant to many of us young men!

[utopian]

Is that you shnugwa? 

 

I say it's better to start now. You don't want to be like me almost 30 years old, having resources and only recently thinking about serious relationships. You notice yourself, you lack experience. It's not something you pick up and read and then you're good, its a journey. Like weight lifting. It's something you gotta do a little bit every day. 

 

Also, you are looking for a needle in a haystack looking for an intelligent virtuous woman. You could go your whole life and never find one. And if you did, you might not even be ready, as you yourself notice your own lack of experience. Opportunity without preparation is irony. If you do find one, and youre not ready, at least you can befriend her while you develop.

 

Also, youre much too intelligent and formal. Girl's gonna be like "talk dirty to me" and youre gonna be like "the financial crisis was caused by poor distribution of subprime loans...". Women are naturally statist subservient beings all but happy to outsource their independence for the benefits of socialism as they live their lives in the fantastical matrix. As the saying goes, girls just want to have fun. Tell a joke. Do something bad. Argue even when you know youre wrong just for the banter of it. One day youll recognize, for perhaps a reason you can't explain, this always works better than a formal engagement where both parties are always walking on egg shells. The best relationships are anarcies with universally preferable behavior, not a statist lockstep with punishments for non-conformity.

[shnugwa]

Is that you shnugwa? 

Yes! Thanks for responding, man!

 

I say it's better to start now. You don't want to be like me almost 30 years old, having resources and only recently thinking about serious relationships. You notice yourself, you lack experience. It's not something you pick up and read and then you're good, its a journey. Like weight lifting. It's something you gotta do a little bit every day. 

Excellent points overall! With online dating, I am messaging people day by day and getting my feet wet so to speak. It's a process for sure, and most of the women I see (thus far) on online dating sites are more into "netflix and chill" than "philosophy and chill".. Still, it's probably best to work hard now to reap the benefits later.

 

Also, you are looking for a needle in a haystack looking for an intelligent virtuous woman. You could go your whole life and never find one. And if you did, you might not even be ready, as you yourself notice your own lack of experience. Opportunity without preparation is irony. If you do find one, and youre not ready, at least you can befriend her while you develop.

Honestly, I think I'm ready in most areas except the experiential realm as you point out. Part of me would like to wait until I meet my ideal partner; part of me would like to gain experience with "normal" people who I can at least get along with. As I understand it, you have had a very tragically difficult time in finding a truly rewarding and loving relationship based on virtue; I was quite sad to read the topic about not being able to justify Philosophy as it made you unhappy in your relationship . Did you start looking from a young age? Do you feel until you waited too long? What are your thoughts?

 

Also, youre much too intelligent and formal. Girl's gonna be like "talk dirty to me" and youre gonna be like "the financial crisis was caused by poor distribution of subprime loans...".

I can turn on the suave when necessary. It's not difficult for me to be charming and engaging with women. I wrote my post in a very rational manner because I'm asking for advice on what is to an extent a calculated decision in my mind. Yet, writing this I realize that deep in my gut it's something that I've truly wanted and yearned for so long...

 

Women are naturally statist subservient beings all but happy to outsource their independence for the benefits of socialism as they live their lives in the fantastical matrix. As the saying goes, girls just want to have fun. Tell a joke. Do something bad. Argue even when you know youre wrong just for the banter of it. One day youll recognize, for perhaps a reason you can't explain, this always works better than a formal engagement where both parties are always walking on egg shells. The best relationships are anarchies with universally preferable behavior, not a statist lockstep with punishments for non-conformity.

Yikes! I wasn't expecting that! Perhaps I misunderstand, but are you of the opinion that all women are "statist, naturally subservient beings... who happily outsource their independence for... socialism as they live their lives in a fantastical matrix"? If so, do you think that the perspective you have on women may be preventing you from finding a virtuous and loving partner? For instance, if I hear a woman say "Men are all domineering statists, who happily flaunt their money for sexual conquest of young ladies, living in a fantastical matrix" (or some shit like that), I would not be attracted to her to say the least. I'd be curious to better understand what your criticism is of women if you're willing to explain.

Thanks again for your reply! I hope to chat more.

[inquirius]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the wisdom of Tom Leykis, Sandman on Youtube, and the tenants of MGTOW before you go on your quest to find a unicorn.

[shnugwa]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the wisdom of Tom Leykis, Sandman on Youtube, and the tenants of MGTOW before you go on your quest to find a unicorn.

 

While I appreciate your concern, I more greatly appreciate your participation in MGTOW.

One less competitor in the epic contest of finding a quality woman to love and cherish!

[myclippedwings]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the wisdom of Tom Leykis, Sandman on Youtube, and the tenants of MGTOW before you go on your quest to find a unicorn.

Wow, so you really believe there are no "virtuous" women out there?

 

I mean from my personal life, I have seen a clear difference between emotionally aware women with a healthy sense of self, compared to women who are emotionally empty, with an unhealthy sense of self?

[thebride440]

I wish you luck in your search.  I can only give anecdotal advice but always, always be honest.  If you are rebuffed by someone when you are, honest that is ok because it is better not to waste time with a woman who is not compatible to you.  Further, I am a bit older and have seen that women in your generation are not into “deep thoughts”.  Therefore, when searching for that special someone immerse yourself into things that will help you meet women that are more enlightened. Such as; volunteering at a museum, or library for events, go to art exhibits, go anywhere that you can to find brains that seek knowledge. 

[inquirius]

Wow, so you really believe there are no "virtuous" women out there?

 

I mean from my personal life, I have seen a clear difference between emotionally aware women with a healthy sense of self, compared to women who are emotionally empty, with an unhealthy sense of self?

 

I do not answer to straw men.  

[utopian]

 

 

 As I understand it, you have had a very tragically difficult time in finding a truly rewarding and loving relationship based on virtue; I was quite sad to read the topic about not being able to justify Philosophy as it made you unhappy in your relationship  . Did you start looking from a young age? Do you feel until you waited too long? What are your thoughts?

Difficult does not even describe it, I simply have not found one. Or the inkling of one. Philosophy shows me the truth. The truth is that humans are generally inhumane. The beautiful lie I was chasing, was the lie that the perfect woman was out there waiting for me to find her. It just does not exist, and anyone chasing that is going to weed themselves out of the gene pool. I have not exactly been looking my whole life... it's complicated. But I do believe I waited too long, although I might not have been able to start any sooner. I felt ready, not so long ago. I went looking for the girl of my dreams when I felt I was ready. She had sent my sister an invitation to her wedding two months prior. 

 

 

 

I can turn on the suave when necessary. It's not difficult for me to be charming and engaging with women. I wrote my post in a very rational manner because I'm asking for advice on what is to an extent a calculated decision in my mind. Yet, writing this I realize that deep in my gut it's something that I've truly wanted and yearned for so long...

 

Of this I do not doubt my friend! An arched brow on a face like yours wearing a nice suit with a grey tie would be sure to kill a woman upon eye contact, before including your demeanor. But you said it yourself, you find women tend to never be interested in the philosophy and chill. There is a reason for that, as well as a reason as the female population being so sparse here. I don't think you will understand if I just tell you what it is. You will have to go out and experience it over and over before you start to challenge what you've been taught throughout life.

 

 

Women are naturally statist subservient beings all but happy to outsource their independence for the benefits of socialism as they live their lives in the fantastical matrix. As the saying goes, girls just want to have fun. Tell a joke. Do something bad. Argue even when you know youre wrong just for the banter of it. One day youll recognize, for perhaps a reason you can't explain, this always works better than a formal engagement where both parties are always walking on egg shells. The best relationships are anarchies with universally preferable behavior, not a statist lockstep with punishments for non-conformity.

Yikes! I wasn't expecting that! Perhaps I misunderstand, but are you of the opinion that all women are "statist, naturally subservient beings... who happily outsource their independence for... socialism as they live their lives in a fantastical matrix"? If so, do you think that the perspective you have on women may be preventing you from finding a virtuous and loving partner? For instance, if I hear a woman say "Men are all domineering statists, who happily flaunt their money for sexual conquest of young ladies, living in a fantastical matrix" (or some shit like that), I would not be attracted to her to say the least. I'd be curious to better understand what your criticism is of women if you're willing to explain.

 

Yes, women are ALL, NAURALLY; statist subservient beings, happy to outsource their independence for the benefits of socialism, as they live their lives in the matrix. I say naturally because, it's in the genes, the evolution. Stephan himself says socialism is porn for women. They are simply developed to do whatever it takes to make the most well taken care of babies. They did not develop to survive; they developed to reproduce. Now, seeing as how reproduction without survival is a problem, the species needed a separate entity who's focus was survival, and not necessarily reproduction, therefore men, and therefore, the beings of survival and reproduction were meant for each other. 

 

Now this is not to say that with proper utilization of the neocortex, a woman cannot rise above their natural development to become something more philosophical. Indeed they can, and men can become more than the dogs they are generally (and I would say mostly) rightly accused of being. It is, unfortunately, the minority of men and women, as noticed by your earlier observation. 

 

And unfortunately, it appears to be getting worse. I am writing another article, like the one in my sig, concerning corporate and state interest in child abuse. Because of my semi-relationship, I have taken quite an interest in borderline personality disorder, and have tested the dynamics of the disorder on my relationship and other women. There are some unbelievably fundamental mechanics at the core of most women, almost as seemingly fundamental as, say, being hungry. I play with these mechanics at an alarming success rate. Either these dynamics are evolutionary fundamental to women, or large percentages of women are being abused as children, or both. It will take time to write thoroughly. But for now, without ever getting into knowing women in general, you probably would not even get to the point where you would believe these dynamics exist. 

[inquirius]

While I appreciate your concern, I more greatly appreciate your participation in MGTOW.

One less competitor in the epic contest of finding a quality woman to love and cherish!

 

First of all, there are plenty of MGTOW men who interact with women; MGTOW is, if nothing else, about refraining from marriage.  

 

Secondly, the fact that you're more concerned about whatever minute competition I offer as a random man on the internet rather than the great wealth of resources I've directed you towards should display for all your lack of critical thinking when it comes to females, especially given the previous emotional damage you suffered.  You also  never give a single reason as to why you need to engage in marriage, which is an absolutely unnecessary risk which benefits only the state.

 

What you should be working on is yourself, not trying to find hay in a needle stack.

[Guest Gee]

Great question. I have no idea how to find a good women, mine found me in college. I suppose maybe there is some wisdom there though? The kind of women you want is the kind of women raised to find a good man, there might be some mileage in putting yourself out there, really living your values for all to see and look at the reactions.

 

Anyway.

 

Lack of dating experience isn't a problem. I would think the kind of woman you want isn't going to punish you for not spending all your time chasing women. Presumably the lack of chasing women is an indication of more likely stability all else equal.

 

Lack of sexual experience isn't a problem. I've had one partner in my life. Again, I would suppose the kind of women you want wouldn't have much either! Do you want a partner who selects on cunnilingus? Gross.

 

Not financially secure yet isn't a problem. You have pretty good prospects eh? And this is your IQ test. Is she smart enough to recognise good prospects for the future, can she defer gratification. 

 

Dropped out of college? Great, less debt! Besides, getting into college and passing a few courses is the indication of potential, once your in and you've knocked out a course of two your IQ test is kind of done. Take physics, average IQ is 130. I'm guessing that average in every year is 130, not simply the graduates! And it is IQ that goes with earnings.

 

Don't know where to begin? 

Well Stef met his wife at a mixed vollyball game

I met my partner (10 years this year) on a ski trip

If I had to guess, I'd say get involved in some sporting activities but maybe this question deserves its own thread.

 

I think the only thing to do before finding your partner is therapy, I wish I had that before I met mine.

And chin up btw, there are alot of great women out there, just be ruthlessly curious! You'll be happy you found her young too, you get more years to enjoy each others company!

[myclippedwings]

I do not answer to straw men.  

No, I'm genuinely curious why you believe a "virtuous" women is impossible to find?

Could you just elaborate on that point please?

[inquirius]

No, I'm genuinely curious why you believe a "virtuous" women is impossible to find?

Could you just elaborate on that point please?

 

Quote me where I said that a virtuous woman is impossible to find.

[shirgall]

Any time you spend doing something is time spent not doing something else. Preparing yourself for the virtuous woman, or the virtuous life, or the fulfilling life, is probably more rewarding in the long run than transitory pleasures.

[ThomasTheIdealist]

Quote me where I said that a virtuous woman is impossible to find.

You said this was a "quest to find a unicorn". Being that unicorns don't exist, you must be referring to OP searching for something that doesn't exist. Being that the whole discussion is about "finding a virtuous woman," what else were you referring to exactly?

[utopian]

For example, the response to my post, is predictable. Why face a challenge directly and put forth a rational argument, when you can outsource your independent ability to discuss, to the collective societal prudery of mechanics on an internet forum? In the same way, do women naturally avoid fending for themselves by learning to defend themselves. Instead, they expect laws of the state to be there to save them.

 

There are of course exceptions to the rule. I admire such women who take survival into their own hands like, say, Rhonda Rousey. But like in the UFC, women are very much the minority. So is the case in philosophy, and so is the case in the state.

[shnugwa]

First of all, there are plenty of MGTOW men who interact with women; MGTOW is, if nothing else, about refraining from marriage.  

 

Secondly, the fact that you're more concerned about whatever minute competition I offer as a random man on the internet rather than the great wealth of resources I've directed you towards should display for all your lack of critical thinking when it comes to females, especially given the previous emotional damage you suffered.  You also  never give a single reason as to why you need to engage in marriage, which is an absolutely unnecessary risk which benefits only the state.

 

What you should be working on is yourself, not trying to find hay in a needle stack.

 

Hey man, I get the impression you're having a bad day. There's no need to roam the boards with a chip on your shoulder; I was joking.

 

Hi Nick. Thanks for being such a thoughtful young man. I don't have much to contribute on most of your points, but as a woman my two cents is to strike "sexual inexperience" from your list of reasons to hold off on finding a woman. This is not something a virtuous woman is looking for in a man, and is easily remedied within the relationship anyway. Just my opinion.

 

Edited to Add: I think all the other points on your list of reasons to wait are also not needed to address prior to beginning your journey. Dating will make you experienced at dating (which is not a goal anyway. the goal is to find a lasting relationship), and the rest will come with research and striving to be the best you. The virtuous woman you are looking for will need to take a chance on your future financial worth, and that's how it should be. You find her in her peak, and she finds you prior to your peak. Your other qualities are far more important than financial "maturity" anyway, and she will be eager to snatch you up.

 

Thank you for your remarkably kind and insightful thoughts! My partner and I will undoubtedly sit down and try our best to learn what works for each other sexually. This is a great relief, as I hadn't stepped back and considered what sexual inexperience would mean to a good woman. This is exactly the kind of reply I had best-hoped for. I really genuinely appreciate your input, mellomamma

[inquirius]

You said this was a "quest to find a unicorn". Being that unicorns don't exist, you must be referring to OP searching for something that doesn't exist. Being that the whole discussion is about "finding a virtuous woman," what else were you referring to exactly?

 

He's asking the forum if he should "find a woman to enjoy life with now at age 20" and my response is that the likelihood of him or whatever similarly aged woman he would want being ready is akin to finding a unicorn, and the process is like finding hay in a needle stack.  Relationships and marriages fail more than they succeed, and especially so for young people.

 

That should clarify your exact concerns.

[myclippedwings]

Quote me where I said that a virtuous woman is impossible to find.

inquirius, on 25 Feb 2016 - 9:50 PM, said:

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the wisdom of Tom Leykis, Sandman on Youtube, and the tenants of MGTOW before you go on your quest to find a unicorn.

"unicorn"

[Rachelle]

Hello, Nick.

I won't have a lot of insight to give because I lack experience in dating and I've never had a virtuous female friend, but I would like to offer my thoughts and personal opinions.

You seem to have made a lot of progress with your self knowledge and growth. I'm in a similar situation with my parents and can appreciate the position you're taking and the hope you may have. I can understand your concern when asking if it's necessary to be 100% finished with the processing of one's childhood as I've also had that concern. My opinion would be is that if you're upfront and honest with where you're at in that processing (as you seem to be) then it's just up to the other person to decide if it's something they're willing to accept or work with. If you find that it's an obstacle while dating or while being in a relationship then take that as useful information, but don't be too disheartened because (I assume) you would still be working to fully process whatever necessary so you would eventually get where you need to be to have a healthy relationship.

Addressing your reasons as to why you're hesitant to put yourself out there I would say that lacking dating or sexual experience are not inherently negatives. Speaking for myself I find men who have had sex with multiple women who have varying quality less attractive than men who have had sex with a lower number or none. Without knowing much more I would assume the man who has slept with less women is more stable and looking for a serious long-term relationship. I personally think it would be disgusting for a woman to overlook your qualities and think that you're not worth dating because you haven't slept with enough other women.

I can't offer any advice on how to find a virtuous woman. I agree with Graham and mellomama, that she should be able to judge your potential as a mate and be willing to take chances. I would not consider the kind of women who would scoff at you after listening to your passion and plan for your life to be virtuous or a quality mate.

I don't see dropping out of a college as a problem especially if your reason for doing so is because you're passionately pursuing something you care about. You say some women greatly prefer a man who has high income potential and speak of status, but from your post I don't think you're looking for those status seeking women and so I wouldn't worry about that being a blemish and instead hope that that keeps lower quality women away. I personally would look for qualities of a good father and therefore a good husband/mate over a man who just has a high income, which can still be considered impressive but it would not be enough.

I'm sorry to hear about your relationship history with women. I hope your friends will help you stay clear from dangerous women (there's a lot) in the future. I've found out how important it is to have a supportive group of people willing to get involved and help you in your romantic relationships. I've been a bit depressed and in a self isolating state recently and it was encouraging to see you write and put yourself out there. It made me think I want to step up some more and work harder to get out of the state I'm in. It was a kind of friendly reminder, not a self-punishing one. So thanks for that, and I hope your search goes well if you end up deciding to put yourself out there more.

[shnugwa]

Hello, Nick.

 

I won't have a lot of insight to give because I lack experience in dating and I've never had a virtuous female friend, but I would like to offer my thoughts and personal opinions.

 

Famous first words which always precede great advice and insight from the humble!

 

You seem to have made a lot of progress with your self knowledge and growth. I'm in a similar situation with my parents and can appreciate the position you're taking and the hope you may have. I can understand your concern when asking if it's necessary to be 100% finished with the processing of one's childhood as I've also had that concern. My opinion would be is that if you're upfront and honest with where you're at in that processing (as you seem to be) then it's just up to the other person to decide if it's something they're willing to accept or work with. If you find that it's an obstacle while dating or while being in a relationship then take that as useful information, but don't be too disheartened because (I assume) you would still be working to fully process whatever necessary so you would eventually get where you need to be to have a healthy relationship.

 

You're quite right! I'm too far down the rabbit hole now; it's either become a virtuous philosopher with immense self-knowledge or bust! I would guess the woman I'd want wouldn't mind if I were still growing, and being up front on my part about that will serve to ease any discomfort that would otherwise arise out of discussing it. Thanks for your thoughts on this!

 

Addressing your reasons as to why you're hesitant to put yourself out there I would say that lacking dating or sexual experience are not inherently negatives. Speaking for myself I find men who have had sex with multiple women who have varying quality less attractive than men who have had sex with a lower number or none. Without knowing much more I would assume the man who has slept with less women is more stable and looking for a serious long-term relationship. I personally think it would be disgusting for a woman to overlook your qualities and think that you're not worth dating because you haven't slept with enough other women.

 

I can't offer any advice on how to find a virtuous woman. I agree with Graham and mellomama, that she should be able to judge your potential as a mate and be willing to take chances. I would not consider the kind of women who would scoff at you after listening to your passion and plan for your life to be virtuous or a quality mate.

Thank you for saying this, Rachelle. I appreciate the sentiment, and I whole-heartedly agree with you, Graham, and mellomamma. The kind of woman I want wouldn't scoff at a man following his passions.

I don't see dropping out of a college as a problem especially if your reason for doing so is because you're passionately pursuing something you care about. You say some women greatly prefer a man who has high income potential and speak of status, but from your post I don't think you're looking for those status seeking women and so I wouldn't worry about that being a blemish and instead hope that that keeps lower quality women away. I personally would look for qualities of a good father and therefore a good husband/mate over a man who just has a high income, which can still be considered impressive but it would not be enough.

 

Brilliant! I now have more confirmation that this is no problem at all. You know, it's interesting actually. On one online dating site, okCupid, I see quite a few women indicating that a college education "is necessary" for their partner. I'd wager that's just their way of trying to filter for intelligence, stability, and financial security. The idea that this can keep narrow-minded women who see it as an absolute away didn't occur to me. Hooray! I've benefited once again from your insight

 

I'm sorry to hear about your relationship history with women. I hope your friends will help you stay clear from dangerous women (there's a lot) in the future. I've found out how important it is to have a supportive group of people willing to get involved and help you in your romantic relationships. I've been a bit depressed and in a self isolating state recently and it was encouraging to see you write and put yourself out there. It made me think I want to step up some more and work harder to get out of the state I'm in. It was a kind of friendly reminder, not a self-punishing one. So thanks for that, and I hope your search goes well if you end up deciding to put yourself out there more.

 

I'm remarkably fortunate to have surrounded myself with intelligent, empathetic, virtuous friends whom I've met through FDR. If you're not aware, I actually advertised for the Young Philosophers Skype Group a while back. I sincerely appreciate your sympathies, and would like to offer my own in return. I am sorry to hear that you've felt isolated as of late!! If you would like to take the first steps towards forging quality relationships, I'd love to invite you to participate in our discussions and join the group. We discuss philosophy, relationships, personal matters, technology, and much more! Check out the thread here and see if it's of interest! You don't need to answer any questions; I judge from your message that you're a genuine person. Just send me a message if you'd like to meet some new quality people!  

[AccuTron]

While I appreciate your concern, I more greatly appreciate your participation in MGTOW.

One less competitor in the epic contest of finding a quality woman to love and cherish!

Uh, and it's epic why?  Easy finds are not epic.  Epic means it took a long time, successful or not, and probably fighting off blood eyed zombies while starving on high cold plains.  Enjoy.

---------------------------------------

Rachelle: "...and I've never had a virtuous female friend"

 

That is an eye catcher.  Would you please elaborate?

-----------------------------

"virtuous philosopher with immense self-knowledge or bust!"

You need your own T-shirt:  Imgur:

[Rachelle]

Thanks for the invitation Nick, I'll consider it. I'm just hesitant because of my history with people bullying me into speaking and having a lot of pressure in groups of intelligent people to be "interesting", and therefore secure and not abandoned. These are some things I'm currently still working through so I have some anxiety but might be willing to take a chance once I think on it more.

AccuTron, I'll do my best to elaborate. I grew up very isolated, some physically and very much so emotionally. I was home schooled and my parents weren't that active in finding quality people for me to engage with. So in my younger years I was mostly exposed to other families in the area who were also homeschooling their children, all of which were extremely dysfunctional and damaging to myself. Everyone I met I thought was much shallower than myself and couldn't be trusted with my inner life. I grew bitter in loneliness and isolation and when given the chance to go to public high school my brother chose to go and I chose not to. I thought to myself that it would be a terrible environment and people are shallow and stupid but really I was afraid because I was constantly being hurt by the people in my life and being alone felt safer to me. I became very self absorbed.

The reason I'm saying all this is to explain that I haven't really been around a lot of people, male or female, I've just had better experiences with males than I have with females and we've had more similar interests, which for a while was basically just video games, until I met a man who introduced me to philosophy and helped me out of a dark place, but that relationship was very dysfunctional as well. I was trying to force the relationship into something it wasn't and thanks to being emotionally neglected as a child I was trying to create and live in the fantasy that we had a deep connection while love and security that we didn't actually have and the end result of our relationship was the scariest and most painful thing I've experienced in my life. It ended about a year ago and I've been doing more self work since and have made a lot of progress but I didn't feel like I was in a place to reach out to others to form connections and I'm just now starting to feel like I'm ready to. So to be fair, I haven't met a lot of females due to isolation that turned into self isolation.

In my experiences males were usually safer because although both being dysfunctional, females were usually the more emotionally manipulative ones that would act "helpless" triggering the part of me who was always trying to protect my emotionally manipulative abused as a child mother as an attempt to gain some sense of control and security in my life. I was also not interested in make up and fashion and thought it was shallow and fake but I didn't really understand it when I was younger and also had/have insecurities about being feminine myself so I think it was just a lashing out more than it was a judgment made with knowledge, but even with more knowledge and processing I still don't find it that interesting, and by itself I find it shallow.

I know it's messy and not as concise as I'd like it to be but hopefully that gives some clarity or understanding to what I said earlier. If not, feel free to question me further but I don't want to derail the thread too much.

[st434u]

If you thought the homeschooling families were shallow, you're lucky you didn't go to high school.

[AccuTron]

Rachelle, that is a good full response which feels concise to me.

 

"I was afraid because I was constantly being hurt by the people in my life and being alone felt safer to me. I became very self absorbed."  -- I can relate to that one.  And we then feel guilty about it, like it was us that did something wrong.  I am now very aware of the lack of even one trustworthy adult in my young life, any form of honest guidance at all.  Now, we have forums like this, where we can ask questions without getting a dirty look, and get advice without manipulation.  That's a miracle by comparison.

 

About makeup:  I have been impressed by such facial layering, usually because something in my brain, like rational thought, momentarily forgot to be fully present.  

Makeup and manipulation are well discussed elsewhere on the net.  I'm not even sure what feminine even is any more.  But I tell you one thing, if that manipulation is there, then feminine appeal is killed outright.  So have fun with makeup, if it's just for fun.  The one thing I'd only ever care about, and I've pretty much given up, is honesty at the woman's core, not just surface.  Which it sounds like you have and value.  Right there, you're leagues ahead of most women, as far as appeal.

[Rachelle]

AccuTron, thank you for your understanding and kind words. I've read and heard a lot of men give up on finding a quality women after seeing so many low quality ones and having many bad experiences. It seems to be a rare thing and much like how it used to be in the video game world a woman could take advantage of the lack of females around to pretend to be that rare find and manipulate and use the men who are blinded by the possibility that they finally found that rare one. I just wanted to let you know that I am aware of this and because I'm not well known I could be seen as such a threat to people on the forum, so I very much appreciate the compliment given to me. I'd say it's smart to be cautious around women.

I haven't written/posted much in the forums yet but you're right it is a good place to go for advice and has given me good experiences. Sometimes after quite a long break and feeling a bit defeated or exhausted I'll pop on here and read a few threads or posts and find myself inspired with energy to keep moving forward.

[csekavec]

OP: you have a lot in your post. Looks to me that time and effort unpacking what you already know will lead to good results for you!  One thing I'd add that I think hasn't really been said yet is don't be overly concerned with looking for a 'philosophical' woman. By this I mean someone who explicitly knows philosophy. There are plenty of really good people who have a wealth of good philosophy passed down as a legacy from generation to generation.  In my experience it's far better to apply proper descriptive language to already existing behavior and thus make a philosophy explicit.  Let me know if this makes sense, I fear I may have explained poorly. 

 

Rachelle I was homeschooled. A lot of what you said resonated with me. When things are difficult, know you aren't alone. It seems trite to say it but it's true.

[AccuTron]

OP and MRP (most recent poster):  I see new forum topics.  

 

One would be about home school experience.  Why don't one of you do that?  You seem to be talking a secret code and I have no idea what it is.  Posters who were home schooled, what were your experiences, feelings, etc.?  What was your relationship to the ducks, Donald and/or Daffy?  Seriously, as cultural/social/psychological starting points, those two cartoon characters could create a path.

 

 

 

I went to Catholic and public shcools. (<spellcheck tried to correct that, but I thought it was too cute to lose.  The education was good; just joking.)  In fact, just before I looked here for recent replies, I was in Google Earth looking at my schools, hundreds of miles away.  

 

That's an interesting tool -- it now occurs to me as yet another new forum topic -- that I have been able to visit thru the internet wonders, the places of the trials of my youth, like I'm Marley's Ghost, or maybe just the big ghost dog in television's Topper. 

 

Over recent years I've looked over the neighborhoods in as much detail as available, and it was an angst cleanser, given my pre-existing efforts at self understanding.  Over recent years, my feelings with later visits reflect my improved mental clarity since the prior visit.  (And the satellite images have better clarity.)  Anyone else do that?

 

Which segues back to the miracles of modern comm age.  To visit my childhood home elsewhere on the planet, while right in this seat; and to ask questions of others elsewhere on the planet, while right in this seat.  

 

(Which brings me to another forum topic I'll start, re what sort of flight deck do you have, whilst typing here?  What are the effects of your surroundings, do you type in one place at home, or anyplace with reception and decent snacks?)

 

Which gets us back to Rachelle saying that you come back here when your energy says to do so.  Which makes perfect sense.  I'd just add that the more you show up here, the more you'll be tested, the quicker -- not rushed -- your development.  Sort of like going to a martial arts gym vs. doing practice at home.  Which is apt; camaraderie for one thing.  Also, that mental forearm block sure looks snappy; but is it really effective, or just show?  Find out.  Make it a routine.  Get into your mental ghi and take "the keyboard stance."  (Any Japanese translators wanna tackle that one?)

[Jaeger]

Nick,

 

I wish I had some great fatherly advice for you.  I wish I could tell you I did some great and marvelous thing to attract my wife.   I might not be able to speak for all married men whose spouses are virtuous women, but for me it was like winning the lottery.  All I did was get up the courage to ask her out and then the rest was history.  In reality she picked me.  

 

The only way to get dating experience is by dating.  Only date the nice girls.  These are the girls that thebride440 mentions above.  You find them in the places of culture.  Virtuous women tend to be more religious and conservative so don't expect work on your sexual experience at the same time as your dating experience, they prefer to wait until marriage for that.   They want you to get the experience with them.

 

My wife was a virgin when I married her she wouldn't even let me french kiss her until after we were married.  I could only peck her on the lips after we were engaged.  My past sexual experiences in many ways were a hindrance to our marriage  rather than a benefit.  We worked through it and now after 18 years of marriage our sex life is better than ever.

 

My best advice is when dating and you get a chance to visit her folks, watch how things are done in their home.  Is it a peaceful home?  Is there fighting or bickering?  Does she get along with her family?  You want to make sure she comes from as stable a home as possible.  She will become the future mother of your children so make sure she will get good advice from you future mother in law.  That's my next advice.  Make sure you like your future mother in law and that she also is a virtuous woman.  Not that disputes won't happen but that the disputes will be handled in a peaceful manner.

 

Rachelle and csekavec,

 

I'm very interested in your homeschooling experiences please post them in my post on homeschooling under peaceful parenting.

 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/46299-homeschooling/

[shnugwa]

OP: you have a lot in your post. Looks to me that time and effort unpacking what you already know will lead to good results for you!  One thing I'd add that I think hasn't really been said yet is don't be overly concerned with looking for a 'philosophical' woman. By this I mean someone who explicitly knows philosophy. There are plenty of really good people who have a wealth of good philosophy passed down as a legacy from generation to generation.  In my experience it's far better to apply proper descriptive language to already existing behavior and thus make a philosophy explicit.  Let me know if this makes sense, I fear I may have explained poorly. 

 

Rachelle I was homeschooled. A lot of what you said resonated with me. When things are difficult, know you aren't alone. It seems trite to say it but it's true.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, I will try to repeat what you mean:

"Don't be too concerned with trying to find a woman who is philosophical. Not all women explicitly know about Philosophy. There are many inherently good women who have a wealth of moral standards and virtues which were passed down through tradition. You would be compatible with such women, as you would share the same values and virtues. The fact that they didn't come from philosophical reasoning isn't too important, because if the woman is intelligent and rational, you can simply teach her the philosophy later."

 

If that IS what you mean, that is super great advice!!! I have found myself thinking "You know, I'd probably have a lot more in common in terms of Morals and Virtues with a smart Christian than the average leftist-atheist." And I think what you say will stick in my mind as good advice that will serve me for years to come. Thank you kindly. Also, thank you to everyone except the MGTOW trolls for filling this thread with brilliant insight and perspective that will undoubtedly help many other young men in a situation similar to myself.