WontStandForIt Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 If you believe that all of you memories, and everything that you ever worked for will just be destroyed for you, and everything will just go blank forever, what drives you to live? Without god what makes you strive even when your existence will just eventually just die out?
neeeel Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 When you are a baby, or a child, you dont believe in god, or atheism, and you are still driven to live. You are starting from the premise that you need god to have meaning, and thats why other points of view look strange to you. 3
csekavec Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 will just be destroyed for you, and everything will just go blank forever This implies experience after death. There isn't any. I'm not bothered by the endless billions of years before I existed why be bothered about the endless billions of years after I cease to exist? Why are you bothered by those years? It is life's brevity that makes it precious. 2
shirgall Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 If you believe that all of you memories, and everything that you ever worked for will just be destroyed for you, and everything will just go blank forever, what drives you to live? Without god what makes you strive even when your existence will just eventually just die out? The drive to survive predates the invention of deities by about 4 billion years. 4
WontStandForIt Posted March 3, 2016 Author Posted March 3, 2016 While you might not be bothered by the time that you do not exist, I have to say that the idea that all of the things that you ever do will just disappear and that your mind and body will cease to exist at any random instance. It just seems that that is a very depressing mindset to have.
Jer Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 While you might not be bothered by the time that you do not exist, I have to say that the idea that all of the things that you ever do will just disappear and that your mind and body will cease to exist at any random instance. It just seems that that is a very depressing mindset to have. Depressing compared to what? Pretending to know things you don't know seems pretty depressing to me. 4
WontStandForIt Posted March 3, 2016 Author Posted March 3, 2016 Depressing compared to what? Pretending to know things you don't know seems pretty depressing to me. Depressing compared to having hope that there is more to life than just a physical presence. Everything that you ever have done just disappearing one day doesn't just bother you a little bit?
neeeel Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 Depressing compared to having hope that there is more to life than just a physical presence. Everything that you ever have done just disappearing one day doesn't just bother you a little bit? So what you are saying is, that it doesnt matter if its true or not, you will keep this hope, this belief, because it makes you feel better? 4
WontStandForIt Posted March 3, 2016 Author Posted March 3, 2016 So what you are saying is, that it doesnt matter if its true or not, you will keep this hope, this belief, because it makes you feel better? Honestly, I fear that my faith in god is wavering because of the things that have been pointed out in Stefan's videos and evilbible.com, and I am not sure if I can hold onto my faith. And if I can't then how I will deal with it. I have so many times have my prayers answered by god but I see the things in the bible that do not make sense and I do not know what to think. You have to understand how big of a deal that this whole thing is. I am 14, god has always been a good shoulder to lean on when no one else was there. And if he was never there, then it all seems meaningless. If I find a for sure truth, then I will accept it, but I am on a borderline at the moment. 1
DCLugi Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 Honestly, I fear that my faith in god is wavering because of the things that have been pointed out in Stefan's videos and evilbible.com, and I am not sure if I can hold onto my faith. And if I can't then how I will deal with it. I have so many times have my prayers answered by god but I see the things in the bible that do not make sense and I do not know what to think. You have to understand how big of a deal that this whole thing is. I am 14, god has always been a good shoulder to lean on when no one else was there. And if he was never there, then it all seems meaningless. If I find a for sure truth, then I will accept it, but I am on a borderline at the moment. You're in a tough spot my friend. I sometimes try to imagine how my mental structure would hold up if I was faced with the possibility that everything I held true wasn't. I like to think that I would accept the new evidence and move on but it wouldn't be easy. I've known great loss and in the aftermath I see life as opportunity. All the best to you.
Torero Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 If I find a for sure truth, then I will accept it, .... Keep searching. The truth is a vision never to be "found". It's unreachable, by definition. But it's why (full) atheism is hard to understand for believers; there is no 1 fixed story and truth is a path to seek, not some fixed line one walks. 1 2
csekavec Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 You have to understand how big of a deal that this whole thing is. I think you are in the right place for getting understanding. Many of us were theists for many, many years. Giving up untruthful things can be painful. Like quitting smoking there are withdrawal pangs. But it is the right thing to do if you want long term health and enjoyment of life.
WontStandForIt Posted March 3, 2016 Author Posted March 3, 2016 I think you are in the right place for getting understanding. Many of us were theists for many, many years. Giving up untruthful things can be painful. Like quitting smoking there are withdrawal pangs. But it is the right thing to do if you want long term health and enjoyment of life. I think that the next step for me is to go my local baptist preacher and confront him with all of this, now that I have gotten advice from atheists. I will try to see both sides before I make a decision. Thank you guys so much for all of your inputs and advice. It as been enlightening.
Kevin Beal Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 I don't "live as an atheist". It never comes up except in rare discussions like this. I often forget that there are people who believe in gods and ghosts and all the rest of it. I'm motivated to work on improving the quality of my life because I, and the people I care about, will benefit from that work later on. If I become increasingly fit for living and accomplishing things, then there are more and more opportunities for me to experience intense joy and share in that experience with those close to me. I can feel more deeply. I can experience deeper connection, fulfillment and love. I have plenty enough incentive to live a good life without the existence of a sky daddy who will reward me for my devotion to him. In fact, the idea repulses me intensely. 2
Guest Gee Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women. 2 1
Anuojat Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 I was christian until 21 and statist socialist until 23. Reason i became an atheist is simply turned my always present desire and yearnign for the truth and honest INWARD and saw my emotions, deep strong ones for what they were. And i saw my psycological manifestation also for waht they were and i accepted them. It was slow, it was hard and most of all i too did feel a sort of nihlism around me but strangely enough there was always certain tenderness in myself that i found soothing and now ive learned that it was the unyielding love for myself, the idea that everyone whom still is capable of love can change and without "the belief" in this concept of God i could easily after some struggles see what it was: A internal desire, an echo chamber for self talk, self love and coping mechnism to protect my trueself in IFS theraphy models these are called guardians. And mine were, both good and bad. (aka self attack self blame, shaming ect. False and so on.) This idea that i can be at peace with myself and love myself and care for ME similiarly like parent that i never had was such relief because i could express and enjoy both my deep seated emotions of joy and sadness and anger without coming up bandate known as god. But it was jsut me and if icould love myself, if i could care for myself, Death was again as it was when i was a child: Matter of fact that is scary, unwanted but NOT unberarable not soemthign to run away from in my head not something to shield my mind from. So thats how i deal with it. Intergrity, self love and honesty... for myself first and foremost. I dont need to believe in something like this, i dont need the bandate because i have the natural self healing of having love for myself.
dsayers Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 You have to understand how big of a deal that this whole thing is. I am 14, god has always been a good shoulder to lean on when no one else was there. For what it's worth, I understand how big of a deal that is. Religion was inflicted upon me also. I believed in it so much that when the inclination first arrived to explore the possibility that it was bullshit, I was overwhelmed with fear that I would go to hell just for thinking that. 2+2=4 never did that to me. At any rate, in your quote here, I think the "no one else is there" part is WAY more important than the god part. I will try to see both sides before I make a decision. Maybe it's just your wording, but this suggests that it's up to you. Either god exists or he does not. The question becomes: How do you know? I can tell you how I know my Montana mug exists. I can't tell you how I ever "knew" god exists. I remember when I asked Christ into my heart, I opened my eyes and everything seemed brighter. Of course, it was a bright day and I had just had my eyes closed for a couple minutes straight because I desperately needed SOMEBODY to love me. Pirates wore eye patches to keep one eye acclimated to darkness. I think this better explains the brightness I experienced than a deity could.
neeeel Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 Honestly, I fear that my faith in god is wavering because of the things that have been pointed out in Stefan's videos and evilbible.com, and I am not sure if I can hold onto my faith. And if I can't then how I will deal with it. I have so many times have my prayers answered by god but I see the things in the bible that do not make sense and I do not know what to think. You have to understand how big of a deal that this whole thing is. I am 14, god has always been a good shoulder to lean on when no one else was there. And if he was never there, then it all seems meaningless. If I find a for sure truth, then I will accept it, but I am on a borderline at the moment. Atheism isnt about knowing deep down that something is true while pretending or trying to believe that its false. As kevin points out, "living as an atheist" isnt something that takes effort, you dont have to constantly be "denying god" or something.You talk as if you still believe in god ( you mention having had your prayers answered numerous times, and a shoulder to lean on) and it seems like you consider atheism as some sort of cloak that you use to cover all of that. Its not like that at all. I am not sure if I can hold onto my faith Why do you want to hold on to your faith?
RCali Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 While you might not be bothered by the time that you do not exist, I have to say that the idea that all of the things that you ever do will just disappear and that your mind and body will cease to exist at any random instance. It just seems that that is a very depressing mindset to have. I am bothered, that I will cease to exist. Greatly. It's depressing that there is not hope to live on forever, but it's even more depressing if you let this thought consume you, and with that, not use what time is given to you to live, and make others' lives better, and rememberable, and even influence generations to come in this manner. In that way, you can be eternal. Make great enough works, and history will remember you. Maybe not forever - or not likely at all - but having influenced people in your lifestime so that you may be spoken of in millenia is quite the achievement. And, really, you don't just die randomly. There's no such a thing as randomness in death or life. There's chance. You can manipulate this chance to your advantage. Such as, if you want reduced chance of heart attack, you'll eat healthy food, sleep well, and exercise. If you want to decrease chance of being decapitated by crazy people, you'll stay away from South Africa. If you want to increase the chance of finding a good mate, you'll increase your value through many possible means. There's no randomness in any of this. You may think so, but it's because you cannot see all of the equation, or any of it, and, as such, you think it doesn't exist. But it does. The opposite of what I just said, though, is true for existance of gods. A false equation has been created for religion. It is false because it doesn't comply to the cientific method, and, if it doesn't comply to cientific method, it doesn't exist. How do we live as atheists? Well, the same way people lived before religion was created, and after it was. We work hard to survive and to learn the truth.
Jer Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 I am 14, god has always been a good shoulder to lean on when no one else was there. And if he was never there, then it all seems meaningless. If I find a for sure truth, then I will accept it, but I am on a borderline at the moment. I vividly remember feeling like I was leaning on God when I was a teen. I prayed every day for God to bring me things that I could have probably gotten if I had relied on myself instead. I ended up sabotaging myself because I didn't think I needed to work hard to get the things I wanted since if I just had enough faith God would move mountains for me. Have you ever waited for God to give you something you prayed for when you could have been working toward it yourself? How would you know if the prayers you say have been answered were actually answered by God as opposed to coincidence or your own effort? George Carlin says he prays to Joe Pesci https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70vuRnnPIzE
AccuTron Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women. From the first Conan movie with the good director, yes?
shirgall Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 From the first Conan movie with the good director, yes? Most famous from that, but it's actually a bastardization of a quote from Temujin (Ghengis Khan): "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters."
villagewisdom Posted March 3, 2016 Posted March 3, 2016 Where are your parents? This is a most important topic to be able to speak with them about at your age.
AncapFTW Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 Honestly, I fear that my faith in god is wavering because of the things that have been pointed out in Stefan's videos and evilbible.com, and I am not sure if I can hold onto my faith. And if I can't then how I will deal with it. I have so many times have my prayers answered by god but I see the things in the bible that do not make sense and I do not know what to think. You have to understand how big of a deal that this whole thing is. I am 14, god has always been a good shoulder to lean on when no one else was there. And if he was never there, then it all seems meaningless. If I find a for sure truth, then I will accept it, but I am on a borderline at the moment. Part of growing up is learning to that things are the way they are, and not living in a fantasy world where you believe them because you want them to be true. At that things you can try and change things if you want, but that doesn't work in this case. The most you can do is try to discover IF a deity exists, and so far no one can prove it. At one point, the idea that the government could fix society's problems was a comforting thought to me. Then I started seeing the government for the inept group of actors, liars, and thieves that it is, but thought it was the lesser evil. In time, I came to realize that it was even worse than that, that it was the very evil that was the problem we were trying to cure. I was rejoicing that one tumor was choking out the other tumors, and thought it should be aided in that, but then I saw things for how they were. It was practically a religious experience when I came to see the government for what it was. I felt like a weight was taken off of my mind, like I was no longer bogged down by the mental gymnastics needed to support that evil, and that's the same thing that happened when I realized that a deity wasn't needed to explain anything, and actually made things worse. Maybe you'll have that experience too some day. 2
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 What drives you to live if you exist for eternity? 2
WontStandForIt Posted March 4, 2016 Author Posted March 4, 2016 What drives you to live if you exist for eternity? In the Bible, it says that Heaven is so vast that there is plenty of room there for everyone, therefore, I am sure that there will be plenty of things to explore. Also to spend forever with my friends in paradise would be a great existance. While seeing that everything that I ever work for will just go away, is like building a castle so that one day, it will just crumble, and you will never remember anything about it, makes it seem like the castle should not be built in the first place.
dsayers Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 to spend forever with my friends in paradise would be a great existance. But if you're focused on what you think is going to be there later, you might miss out on what's happening right now. While seeing that everything that I ever work for will just go away, is like building a castle so that one day, it will just crumble, and you will never remember anything about it, makes it seem like the castle should not be built in the first place. Not many castles getting built these days. The ones that around around are hundreds of years old. Much older than a human life span. There's no reason to expect that the things you do have to outlive you. When you die, the people that knew you will carry your memory on. Every interaction with every person changes them in some way. This ripples from person to person. You've already planted so much that has the potential to outlive you. If this is your concern though, clinging to a fantasy would only exacerbate this concern. Using that time instead to make sure your life matters and your net impact on the world is a beneficial one would address your concern in the best possible way. 1
WontStandForIt Posted March 4, 2016 Author Posted March 4, 2016 But if you're focused on what you think is going to be there later, you might miss out on what's happening right now. Not many castles getting built these days. The ones that around around are hundreds of years old. Much older than a human life span. There's no reason to expect that the things you do have to outlive you. When you die, the people that knew you will carry your memory on. Every interaction with every person changes them in some way. This ripples from person to person. You've already planted so much that has the potential to outlive you. If this is your concern though, clinging to a fantasy would only exacerbate this concern. Using that time instead to make sure your life matters and your net impact on the world is a beneficial one would address your concern in the best possible way. I am sorry, but you didn't quite get what I was saying, I meant that to me, there really doesn't really seem to be a point of caring in life it at one point, it is going to all go away and I will not exist, and I will never even remember it or be able to look back on it with my friends after that point. Why live only for everything to go away forever, and end up unconscious and it all be gone.
csekavec Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 The only way to cease things changing is to stop all motion. Your wish for eternity is a bald wish for death.
David Ottinger Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 If you believe that all of you memories, and everything that you ever worked for will just be destroyed for you, and everything will just go blank forever, what drives you to live? Without god what makes you strive even when your existence will just eventually just die out? Producing offspring is as close to eternity as you're gonna get, and there is no guarantee that our species will never face extinction. But, the ego -- which is what you're trying to save here -- doesn't need to go along with this ever changing genetic procession through space-time. Also, I fail to see why I need to pretend there is an omnipresent factor to myself in order to find value in life. I will die. And I value my time even more because I know it's in limited supply.
Mister Mister Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 Most famous from that, but it's actually a bastardization of a quote from Temujin (Ghengis Khan): "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." Holy crap...I would have loved to read a dialogue between him and Socrates.
DaviesMa Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 I can see how the thought of non-existence would bother people and I must admit that it has bothered me for a time. A way to look at it from a physics point of view is to see time as another dimension, like length, width or height. If you stop seeing time as something that goes forward, but instead is a place or a coordinate, then you reach the conclusion that every moment of your life has and will always exist, but in a different place to where 'you' are now. In effect, there are almost infinite versions of you experiencing your life but they are further back or further along the dimension of time. I hope this makes sense. Whether it provides comfort or not is another matter.
neeeel Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 I can see how the thought of non-existence would bother people and I must admit that it has bothered me for a time. A way to look at it from a physics point of view is to see time as another dimension, like length, width or height. If you stop seeing time as something that goes forward, but instead is a place or a coordinate, then you reach the conclusion that every moment of your life has and will always exist, but in a different place to where 'you' are now. In effect, there are almost infinite versions of you experiencing your life but they are further back or further along the dimension of time. I hope this makes sense. Whether it provides comfort or not is another matter. This seems just the same as believing something because its comforting. Your life has and will always exist but in a different place to where you are now? sounds pretty woo-woo to me.
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 In the Bible, it says that Heaven is so vast that there is plenty of room there for everyone, therefore, I am sure that there will be plenty of things to explore. Also to spend forever with my friends in paradise would be a great existance. While seeing that everything that I ever work for will just go away, is like building a castle so that one day, it will just crumble, and you will never remember anything about it, makes it seem like the castle should not be built in the first place. What's the point of exploring all these things? There's no challenge because there's no end. You might as well be non-existent. You can't comprehend forever so you can't say anything would be great within it. Anything you ever do is literally pointless. It doesn't matter if you do it or don't because no matter what you do there's still always eternity. Nothing you do can matter in any way. Eternity cancels out all meaning in life. It doesn't follow that because you will one day not remember building the castle that you should not build it. Eternity is just a series of moments like our finite existence but if nothing ends then nothing has any value. Better never to have been at all than live for eternity. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/My_Corner_of_the_Continuum
WontStandForIt Posted March 5, 2016 Author Posted March 5, 2016 Our existence on earth is limited, that is why it has value. Life has value even when it is eternal, because you can do so many things with it, and even doing those things again (Like going to play pool every friday) will likely not have a identical experience, so therefore you will never get bored. New things will be invented and also, you remember the time that you spent on earth. I have no reason to believe that this is the truth. Honestly nobody knows if the afterlife exists or not. I can say that I believe that it does. I can't fathom evolution being a thing. Can anyone here say that there is more of a chance that life started by coincidence than a deity existing?
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