A question to you guys.

[WontStandForIt]

Do any of you guys think that it is possible that, over thousand of years, through translations, not being printed, and such, that the Holy Bible could have been edited by people (Rulers  specifically) so that they could control people? And that God actually exists, and that we have just been shown a diluted version of what monarchs of old wanted people to believe about his teachings? I mean, I am not just trying to come up with excuses but you can't just think that all of the translations have been spot on, especially since it existed in writing long before the printing press.

[dsayers]

God actually exists

Which god? How do you know?

[WontStandForIt]

I do not know, just as you do not know if God does exist. If there was though, we cannot just rule out the possibility can we? I mean in that way, we can respect that christianity is not an illogical religion, as well as maybe open some eyes to the perspective that just because a book that could've easily been edited by humans is immoral, it doesn't mean that the christian deity is immoral.

[wdiaz03]

Do any of you guys think that it is possible that, over thousand of years, through translations, not being printed, and such, that the Holy Bible could have been edited by people (Rulers  specifically) so that they could control people? And that God actually exists, and that we have just been shown a diluted version of what monarchs of old wanted people to believe about his teachings? I mean, I am not just trying to come up with excuses but you can't just think that all of the translations have been spot on, especially since it existed in writing long before the printing press.

 

If God exists and he is not intervening to correct any of this then isn't it like he didn't existed at all. You have not way to sort out what his God really wants from you now that his words are corrupted. Ask yourself this:

 

What would it look like if people invented a God? Would the sacred texts be filled with inconsistencies? would this God be similar to the many  other Gods people have created? Would the knowledge of this God be localized tot he region that invented it?

Compare the many religions humans have believed throughout history. why is one of the religion of today any different? what would people 2000 years from now think of the religions of today? 

[dsayers]

I do not know, just as you do not know if God does exist. If there was though, we cannot just rule out the possibility can we?

Of course we can! In order for the Christian deity to exist, it would mean that

 

1 Consciousness can exist without matter or energy (CEwoME). This is not an accurate description of the real world.

2 Only one CEwoME. Nothing exists in uniquity.

3 Specifically that one CEwoME. What are the chances that of the thousands of deities humans have talked bout, THAT's the right one?

4 The CEwoME intervenes.

 

That last step is extremely important. Because as wdiaz points out, without intervention, for it to exist or not exist would be functionally identical. If it existed, we could measure it and substantiate it. If it doesn't intervene after creating all the evil in the world, that this is not something worth praise or worship.

 

It's intellectual sloth to claim we cannot know something that is easily tested for. I say this as somebody who once identified as agnostic.

[neeeel]

there is no way to get from "god exists" to "the god of the bible is the correct god", do you see how big a leap you are making?

 

Even if we start with accepting the premise that god exists, that tells you nothing about god, and especially not about what god wants us to do.

[utopian]

Absolutely. The Jews themselves will tell you Christianity is fairly deviated from the original religion, and does not even serve the same god. 

 

In fact, it is a hobby of mine to go looking into this very topic. You may want to look into a couple topics which purvey the original sources for what god was supposed to be.

 

The first is Kabbalah, part of the original Jewish religion which was much more paganistic. According to Kabbalah, god is basically the universe. God is everything. He is all, and is in all, as Kabbalah says. The same way you would rarely be conscious of a single germ in your body, you are a germ in the universal body of god that he is rarely conscious of.

 

The second topic is the ancient Sumerian texts. You may have heard of Mesopotamia, or Babylon. Sumeria was a third region which was very intellectually and culturally advanced. The Sumerian texts and hieroglyphs speak of the gods as beings who actively walked among man and taught them to do their bidding, and hold many descriptions of the original bible stories. According to the texts, the gods were aliens looking for gold to take back to their home planet to save their atmosphere.  Their home planet was supposedly a tenth planet of our solar system. Coincidentally, NASA has recently begun to talk of evidence for just such a planet;

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/09/03/is-there-a-planet-x-a-massive-perturber-hidden-beyond-pluto/

[Mister Mister]

  I really appreciated your honesty in a previous thread, and I greatly sympathize with what you are going through.  Outside of this forum, are there people in your life with whom you can talk about these important issues?  Either way I greatly admire and feel for your curiosity and desire for truth despite the obvious discomfort it is bringing you, especially at such a young age.

 

  As for your question, it is undoubtedly true that religious texts like the Bible, though they may have some truth and principles, are edited so as to serve power, or at least not to threaten it.  In general, we don't have a fair representation of philosophy, historically, because of our violent, statist past.  You have to understand that the world these texts came from thousands of years ago in the Middle East, was a much harsher one.  Certain truths simply could not have survived in that world, because they would have been a threat to political power of the time.  Either the texts would be burned and the followers killed, or the texts would be edited, or, most likely, no one would have dared to even write them down or preach them in the first place.  Has it ever occurred to you, that the same government which killed Jesus, also canonized the main texts which have become the New Testament, some 400 years later?  Do you know that many things were left out, such as the Gospel of Thomas?  It was also translated by the Romans into Latin from Greek, from Aramaic, and then the Latin was translated into English over a thousand years later.  So of course the content of the Bible as it exists today has been heavily edited, probably for political reasons.

  But as for the other part of your question, does god exist...of course the existence of god as a greater metaphysical question, is not dependent on the truth or falsehood of the Bible or any of the many religious texts people have believed in throughout history.  But the problem is that most definitions of god are logically inconsistent, or in complete opposition of observable reality.  I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective that may help.  It is absolutely true that there are great mysteries in the Universe - Where and how did the Universe originate?  what principles underlie Creation and where did they come from?  what sustains matter and energy in constant, beautiful, though sometimes violent, motion?  how did life originate?  how widespread is life throughout the Universe?  what is consciousness and how did it come about?  We can appreciate these mysteries, and strive for better and more clear and consistent answers to these questions.  We can be honest and humble about our uncertainty and ignorance in certain areas, while being reasonable about the things we can be certain of.  We can gain great value from introspection, and meditation, and have powerful inner experiences that we can't explain.  But none of this requires faith in something we can't prove, or which is nonsensical by definition.  You are obviously a passionate and intelligent young person, and I can tel you that in time, you won't necessarily need the idea of God to have principles and ethics as well as a sense of wonder about the world.

[rosencrantz]

Do any of you guys think that it is possible that, over thousand of years, through translations,

 

No. The Vulgate Bible was the main source for Western Christianity. It was translated around 400 AD and has remained in service since then. 

 

not being printed

 

 

Bibles were copied in monasteries for hundreds of years and they were in circulation. What does have print to do with it?

 

 

that the Holy Bible could have been edited by people (Rulers  specifically) so that they could control people?

 

Until you provide concrete examples the question is meaningless.

 

but you can't just think that all of the translations have been spot on

 

Actually, they are. You have two very old translations of the Old Testament. The Vulgate and the Septuagint have been researched and found to be very accurate. As is the Masoretic Text, the Hebrew version of the Old Testament. By looking at Qumran and comparing it to those old fragments you can verify that the Masoretic text is accurate.

 

Absolutely, the translations are nothing like the original

 

When you take Western grammar and philosophy into account, the translations are fairly accurate. Do you have examples for inaccuracy?

[WontStandForIt]

Do you all really think that if a deity exists, that we could measure one? 

 

 

 

If God exists and he is not intervening to correct any of this then isn't it like he didn't existed at all. You have not way to sort out what his God really wants from you now that his words are corrupted. Ask yourself this:

 

What would it look like if people invented a God? Would the sacred texts be filled with inconsistencies? would this God be similar to the many  other Gods people have created? Would the knowledge of this God be localized tot he region that invented it?

Compare the many religions humans have believed throughout history. why is one of the religion of today any different? what would people 2000 years from now think of the religions of today? 

 

 

Don't you think that if a god wanted us to have free will, he would not interfere in something that is human made? 

 

 

[WontStandForIt]

Outside of this forum, are there people in your life with whom you can talk about these important issues?

My parents aren't the most educated people, they are nice and supportive, but my mother for instance questions god's existence so I can't really talk to her but tomorrow I am going to a church to confront a preacher about the things in the bible that do not make sense. I will be using evilbible.com for that. I have a thirst for truth and that is why I seek out these forums, because I tend to really enjoy talking to well read people that make sense. There are some of those people on this forum, so that is why I prefer that. I also have a real life friend that I talk to, and him and I have agreed that we believe god, but not the bible. Thank you for the compliments and such as they are scarce in my age group and are what motivates me!

[rosencrantz]

The verse in question is Gen 2:22

 

The Vulgate reads: et aedificavit Dominus Deus costam quam tulerat de Adam in mulierem et adduxit eam ad Adam (and God 'built' her from the rib he took to the wife and gave her to Adam)

The Septuagint texts inlcudes the words oikodomaso (to build) and pleura (side) so the translation is similar. When you have a look at a 'critical' bible you will see that it shows if there are different translations for a given verse. 

Plato wanted to explain homosexuality in one of his myths. According to him, humans rolled around like cannonballs. Every human consisted of two two units who could be male or female. The gods saw that humans became too arrogant and they split the humans in half. Depending on the original configuration you became either heterosexual (original configuration woman - man or man - woman) or homosexual (man - man or woman - woman). 

[wdiaz03]

Do you all really think that if a deity exists, that we could measure one? 

 

 

 

 

Don't you think that if a god wanted us to have free will, he would not interfere in something that is human made? 

 

 

 

The God from the bible has interfered plenty of times. great flood, miracles, revelations. yet each time the result seem to fall short of the seemed intentions. 

 

I recommend the videos from DarkMatter2525 if you what to explore religion from a different respective.

 

[Mister Mister]

My parents aren't the most educated people, they are nice and supportive, but my mother for instance questions god's existence so I can't really talk to her but tomorrow I am going to a church to confront a preacher about the things in the bible that do not make sense. I will be using evilbible.com for that. I have a thirst for truth and that is why I seek out these forums, because I tend to really enjoy talking to well read people that make sense. There are some of those people on this forum, so that is why I prefer that. I also have a real life friend that I talk to, and him and I have agreed that we believe god, but not the bible. Thank you for the compliments and such as they are scarce in my age group and are what motivates me!

  I understand.  I wouldn't think the important thing with regards to your mother, would be to have a philosophical discussion about theology and metaphysics and epistemology, but rather your emotional experience with regards to your current crisis in faith.  Would she be sympathetic and curious?  Or do you think she would lash out or fog you with cliches?