"It's MY CHILD so taking their things is not stealing"

[john cena]

How do I respond to someone who claims that taking away their child possessions by force is not stealing, because they own the child? I mean sure I could blow that argument up directly by showing that she does not own the child, but this person is stupid and would not be able to gather much from that stumping. 

Conversation started in response to this:


Me: If you have to steal your kids stuff away, you already messed up. Why not make them work for it in the beginning? 

 

 

Other:

It's not really stealing if they live in your house and you bought it lol. But the answer to your question is bc there are too many spoiled brats that don't respect their parents these days!

 

 

Me:
Yes if you gave them possession of the item and tell them it's theirs, (IE a gift) and you forcibly take it away, that is considered theft among adults. Surely you don't have a higher moral standard for a toddler than adults, do you? Showing them that authority can arbitrarily take their things away is not healthy.

 

The reason they don't respect their parents, is because their parents don't respect them! Children are people too, not some other entity that we must violently control.

 

A better way is to tell them that if they don't do something, you won't do something for them in the future. IE do your chores or I don't pay your cellphone bill this month. This makes a whole lot more sense in regard for actually prepping them for society.

 

 

Other:
That's the problem, people treating toddlers and younger children like they are adults so therefore they think they are grown, and they aren't. And if it's THEIR child, it isn't stealing. I wish I would've told my dad he was stealing my stuff when he took phone, car, etc. Lol that would've have ended good for me. And there is nothing violent about the method she used. She even stated that she has told her over and over to keep her room cleaned, when words no longer work, you have to do something. And obviously it worked.

She also said it's a teenager, not a toddler. So she deffinetly understands what's going on and I hope to God she knows better by now.

[dsayers]

How do I respond to someone

Depends on what your goal is. Are you trying to change their mind? In order to change a person's mind, you must first understand WHY they think the way they do. If you haven't already, check out Stef's Bomb in the Brain series.

 

You are gifting this person your time when their behavior suggests they are not worthy of your time. Also, you are inadvertently STRENGTHENING their misguided belief because you are providing resistance to it.

[AncapFTW]

 

How do I respond to someone who claims that taking away their child possessions by force is not stealing, because they own the child? I mean sure I could blow that argument up directly by showing that she does not own the child, but this person is stupid and would not be able to gather much from that stumping. 

 

Conversation started in response to this:

 

Me: If you have to steal your kids stuff away, you already messed up. Why not make them work for it in the beginning? 

 

 

Other:

It's not really stealing if they live in your house and you bought it lol. But the answer to your question is bc there are too many spoiled brats that don't respect their parents these days!

 

 

Me:

Yes if you gave them possession of the item and tell them it's theirs, (IE a gift) and you forcibly take it away, that is considered theft among adults. Surely you don't have a higher moral standard for a toddler than adults, do you? Showing them that authority can arbitrarily take their things away is not healthy.

 

The reason they don't respect their parents, is because their parents don't respect them! Children are people too, not some other entity that we must violently control.

 

A better way is to tell them that if they don't do something, you won't do something for them in the future. IE do your chores or I don't pay your cellphone bill this month. This makes a whole lot more sense in regard for actually prepping them for society.

 

 

Other:

That's the problem, people treating toddlers and younger children like they are adults so therefore they think they are grown, and they aren't. And if it's THEIR child, it isn't stealing. I wish I would've told my dad he was stealing my stuff when he took phone, car, etc. Lol that would've have ended good for me. And there is nothing violent about the method she used. She even stated that she has told her over and over to keep her room cleaned, when words no longer work, you have to do something. And obviously it worked.

She also said it's a teenager, not a toddler. So she deffinetly understands what's going on and I hope to God she knows better by now.

 

Anyone who is on my property must surrender their possessions to me at any time.  Who cares if I gave it to them, that giving is contingent on my every whim.  She needs to be brought into line, so I'll do whatever I feel like to force her compliance.

 

Somehow you can to teach your children to be mature by acting immature towards them.

 

It also isn't abuse when they beat them, rape if you have sex with them or let someone else, or murder if they decide they've had enough and add rat poison to their supper.

 

"I was abused by my parents that way, and if I'd said anything about it would have been abused more, so that makes it ok in this situation."

 

And there's nothing violent about stealing your car and ransoming it back to you either.

 

Her previous methods have been ineffective, so it's ok to violate her rights and property to teach her a lesson.  The teenager was coerced into compliance eventually, so it's all good.

 

It's an older child that is practically an adult already, so it's not as bad if it happens to them.  She now sees the that her parents can do whatever they want to her and understands that she's basically at their mercy, which will keep her in line from now on.

[ThomasTheIdealist]

I don't see anyone claiming to own the child. The child is theirs in the sense of legal guardianship, not ownership.

 

If a landlord takes the washing machine from a house someone is renting, without any formal agreement to leave the landlord's washing machine for tenants' usage, then is that stealing?

[AncapFTW]

I don't see anyone claiming to own the child. The child is theirs in the sense of legal guardianship, not ownership.

 

If a landlord takes the washing machine from a house someone is renting, without any formal agreement to leave the landlord's washing machine for tenants' usage, then is that stealing?

Not the same thing.  The child's things weren't loaned to them, they were given to them.

 

Besides, usually if there is a washing machine there is will be listed in the rental agreement because it would increase the price of rental.

[Spenc]

This is a clear case of trying to close the barn doors after the horses have left.

 

Stef will often talk about how he gets a promise from his daughter in the first place.  So let's say I have a kid who wants to play soccer and I sign them up and then notice his grades are slipping and I'm concerned.  I probably should have negotiated that soccer is secondary to school work in the first place.  Furthermore, I should have instilled a sense in the mind of the child how and why school work is important long before this so that it wouldn't suddenly crop in a negotiation over soccer anyways.

 

So the parent has routinely asked for higher standards of tidiness in this case on facebook.  Then they've presumably continued to give the kids the means to possess all this stuff that becomes clutter in their rooms, and they continue on with their pleas for tidiness as they help the kids accumulate more crap to pile up on the floors.  It's no wonder they aren't getting the message loud and clear.  So instead of just not buying them the 7 pairs of jeans in the first place, until they showed better habits for caring for their stuff and their bedroom, the parents buy them the jeans, then steal them back when they are piled up on the floor and create a conflict over privacy, possessions and sense of fairness.

 

I don't know how you convey this to the mother or father because they aren't going to want to hear that they have been taking the wrong approach for a long long time, they will probably want to dig in their heels so they don't have to circle back and undo all the damage from previous errors and establish better relations with their kids

[Mister Mister]

 

there are too many spoiled brats that don't respect their parents these days!

 

The implications are that children should respect their parents.  Why?  What have you done to earn their respect?  Fed and sheltered them?  Well even a dog or a sparrow is capable of that, it's not exactly honorable behavior, just selfish animalistic protection of your genes.  Furthermore, are there anything parents can do to lose their children's respect?  Would you treat anyone else in your life this way?  i.e. "I bought my wife a necklace a year ago, but now I've taken it back because she's not showing me respect!!!".  Would we accept that kind of behavior in any other kind of circumstance (taxation and eminent domain maybe?) ???  Respect and love have to be earned through reciprocity, integrity, honesty, and so on.  When a person behaves like this, just because they have power over others, just because they can, it is to me a sign of massive insecurity and self doubt.

 

This is really at the core of the issue, in my opinion.  It's the confusion of virtue with mere obedience to power.  Kids who do what they are told are "good", otherwise they're bad 

I don't see anyone claiming to own the child. The child is theirs in the sense of legal guardianship, not ownership.

 

If a landlord takes the washing machine from a house someone is renting, without any formal agreement to leave the landlord's washing machine for tenants' usage, then is that stealing?

It's not the same at all.  A tenant can leave a landlord, a child cannot leave their parents.  This is why people can get away with such nasty behavior in these kind of situations.

[ThomasTheIdealist]

Not the same thing.  The child's things weren't loaned to them, they were given to them.

Who's to say they were given and not loaned? This parent clearly did not give them to their child, but merely let them use it. There was no explicit arrangement otherwise.

 

A tenant can leave a landlord, a child cannot leave their parents.

Then this is the real problem. isn't it?

[AncapFTW]

Who's to say they were given and not loaned? This parent clearly did not give them to their child, but merely let them use it. There was no explicit arrangement otherwise.

 

Then this is the real problem. isn't it?

So, a parent giving a child a toy and saying it's theirs doesn't constitute them explicitly giving it to the child?  A parent saying "I bought this for you" then giving it to them doesn't constitute them explicitly giving it?

 

What if someone else gave it to them, say as a birthday present?  Can the parent also confiscate those items on a whim?

[AccuTron]

What I don't see mentioned is why the mess to begin with?  I'm thinking of a woman I know, who has revealed herself to be an unthinking idiot, despite a nursing career...don't let careers fool you...and she has a now grown daughter.  While living at home, the daughter's room was a mess, but I ask myself what the daughter was reacting to.  Was her life a mess, her mother illogical, irrational, unethical?  I think the closer look needs taken to what is actually going on in that home to begin with. Symptom vs. cause.

[Mister Mister]

Then this is the real problem. isn't it?

 

Care to elaborate?  I don't really see it as a problem, it's just a biological reality, that children are to some extent unwilling prisoners of their caregivers.  The problem is letting this power corrupt a person, because society doesn't generally apply rational standards to parenting.  Stef has made the argument that parents ought to act as if their children COULD choose otherwise, and also that of course when the children are grown, they have no obligation to have any contact with their parents.

[Troubador]

This parent's problem is they are taking ownership of the child, but not responsibility. Note how ownership is asserted, but responsibility is not. This parent can own the child, but the parent takes no responsibility for the child's messiness, that is an undesirable trait possessed by the child. Although I suspect this parent would be quick to take credit for a virtue, talent or achievement their child has actualised. Respect is a trickier one to get to the bottom of, ideally you don't want parent = respect by default. Ideally respect is earned, as that is how it works in the real world. It should be no different for us as parents to earn that respect. All too often people feel powerless and disrespected in their day to day lives and revel in the notion that this dependant on them human being that they control and feel have to respect them.

 

In truth proper respect should be accompanied with love and trust and that is even more essential in a parenting context. In the crucial early years a child that is bonded to you securely wants to spend all their time with you. You are literally their world. Things like virtues and good habits can be much more easily instilled in this phase, through co-operation. One of the first words my son learned was teamwork. Of course basic chores can take three times longer when they help you, but they are watching you to see how to behave and if you include them and make them part of your world it pays dividends in the end.

 

A teenager however is set to challenge you, and this too is absolutely crucial. They are powering up to be independent so at this stage you need to channel and direct that. They are also learning that you are not perfect, and with that realisation going on to define who they wish to be by comparison, so don't fight this and go against the flow. Rather work with it. In this context the parent should apologise to the child for not teaching the child to be tidy, and rather ask how can they can reach a mutually beneficial solution. Involve the teenager in the process.