Help! My Brother is a shitty parent and I'm concerned for his children

[BnK_Collins]

Hi all,

 

My brother is 27 with 4 children. He is currently living under the same roof as his children and partner (mother of his children). He has no time for his kids and acts like they are good for nothing burdens in his life. He is very selfish, does not like parting with his money to help support/raise his children. He does nothing to help his partner around the house or to raise his children. He is verbally, emotionally and physical abusive. He calls them pricks and cu#ts to their faces. He seems particularly hateful of his eldest boy who has just turned 7. He did not even say happy birthday when he was opening his presents in the morning. I'm not even sure if he wished him happy birthday at all. (My mum has told me that my father used to do the very same thing with my brother.)  This same boy, my nephew recently told his Nan that he hates his dad. You can see the effect this has on this little boy. I believe somehow this is all some kind of history repeating itself as my dad was also a shitty father to his sons. He would favour one over the other. He was also abusive. It's a vicious circle. When I have tried to talk to my brother about this he loses his temper and leaves so that the conversation cannot continue. I tried to arrange for him to go and seek some guidance/counselling to which he never went. I asked him about this recently and he said he didn't go because he hasn't had time. He does not have full-time work at the moment so I know this is just and excuse. I'm at the point where I've asked his partner if there is ANY benefit to the kids with him being around. She said that she agonises over this question constantly. Is there anything at all that I can say to her that might help. I think he is beyond help.

[regevdl]

Hi all,

 

My brother is 27 with 4 children. He is currently living under the same roof as his children and partner (mother of his children). He has no time for his kids and acts like they are good for nothing burdens in his life. He is very selfish, does not like parting with his money to help support/raise his children. He does nothing to help his partner around the house or to raise his children. He is verbally, emotionally and physical abusive. He calls them pricks and cu#ts to their faces. He seems particularly hateful of his eldest boy who has just turned 7. He did not even say happy birthday when he was opening his presents in the morning. I'm not even sure if he wished him happy birthday at all. (My mum has told me that my father used to do the very same thing with my brother.)  This same boy, my nephew recently told his Nan that he hates his dad. You can see the effect this has on this little boy. I believe somehow this is all some kind of history repeating itself as my dad was also a shitty father to his sons. He would favour one over the other. He was also abusive. It's a vicious circle. When I have tried to talk to my brother about this he loses his temper and leaves so that the conversation cannot continue. I tried to arrange for him to go and seek some guidance/counselling to which he never went. I asked him about this recently and he said he didn't go because he hasn't had time. He does not have full-time work at the moment so I know this is just and excuse. I'm at the point where I've asked his partner if there is ANY benefit to the kids with him being around. She said that she agonises over this question constantly. Is there anything at all that I can say to her that might help. I think he is beyond help.

Wow.  that's so sad, those poor kids!  I don't even know what to suggest.  I mean the fact that the partner/mother 'agnonizes' over the question is concerning.  I mean the abusive dad is an obvious problem and he clearly is not open for change but why in the world is the mother 'torn'.  

 

I mean if she is fully aware and bothered by everything you have described that SHE witnesses and experiences in her home then what's to agonize about...I think the children will respect her more for leaving and saving them from this monster. 

 

As typically the case the mother sticks around until the kids are big enough and then she leaves because then suddenly the father becomes too much for HER to bear...nevermind what she put the children through.  This too is incredibly selfish. 

 

It seems like you tried every conceivable solution with your brother who is committed to being this way but you may have hope in convincing the mother to leave with the children to get them to safer 'waters' of sorts.  Try to find out what she is benefiting by staying with him.  If it's financial (but doesn't seem to be the case if they are barely making ends meet).  But she, herself, must feel she is gaining SOMETHING that is outweighing her decision to leave and protect her kids.  

 

Maybe also look up alternative solutions for her a protection home or if you can help or take them in or other people so she feels she has a soft landingthat might encourage her to leave.  

[neeeel]

If he doesnt acknowledge that theres a problem, you arent going to get anywhere. Either he doesnt believe theres a problem, or he has an inkling that there might be a problem, but doesnt want to face it.

 

Have you and your brother ever talked about your childhoods? Does he believe there was nothing wrong with his? "Well, I was hit, and I turned out ok" ?

 

Do you have an "in" to the compassion that might still be there in your brother? A shared childhood memory of when your brother was upset and hurt and in pain? Are you able to bring him back to that place?

 

Would it be dangerous to his son if you reported ( without telling him which of his kids said it) that one of his children had said "I hate my dad". Not saying it to your brother in a nasty way, or a condemnatory way, but a "Do you want your kids to hate you " way? If he is liable to take it out on his kids, then do not do this.

 

Edit: thinking about talking about your shared childhood with your brother, I am worried that this may also make things worse for his kids? It might bring his pain more into focus, and he may not be able to deal with it, and so take it out on his kids. What do other FDR people think?

 

Edit 2: if you have the opportunity, allow your brothers kids to talk to you, if they say stuff like "I hate my dad", use that as an opening to talk to them about it. Reflect back to them that they are allowed to hate and be angry.

[Abbie Brown]

I would wait for a moment when you can go to you brother and suggest counseling. Clearly all those involved need it. If he isn't willing to hear the first time keep saying it. Over and over again, in whatever manner is required until he sees you are concerned and that it is not an attack but a change to heal his family. 

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Where is the female accountability in your post? What does he think of his mother? What do you think of your mother? What do you think of his wife? Why would it necessarily be in his interest to attend therapy if he is around women who do not take responsibility for their own choices? It would be the moral thing to do, but I don't see any evidence to think he cares about morality.

 

Someone brought up single motherhood as an alternative. I don't see how that can be, considering that the wife chose to marry and have four children with the husband. If she saw how abusive he was, why did she keep having children with him?

 

I grew up in a single parent home, so maybe I am biased, but I am always cautious when that is suggested as being an improvement. I don't know of any data which supports the idea that single motherhood is preferable. It could be in this situation, but I don't feel confident in anything that was shared about her to say so.

[TheBen]

The easiest and most effective way to change the world is to change yourself.  You think that the issue here is your brother and his family but the problem is you.  It is your duty as someone who is striving to be a moral person to pick your battles wisely and spread virtue where it can grow.  In my opinion you are not helping your brother and his family at all and you may even be hurting them.  You are trying to use logic and reason with people that refuse to take even the smallest steps at bettering the lives of themselves and their family.  I'm sure you have heard of Dunning and Kroeger.  When you bring logic and evidence to people to try to sway their opinion, they can tend to double down and believe in their shit values even more.  I would urge you to please stop torturing yourself by attempting to help those who have shown very little sign of positive growth.  Move on and get over this situation.  Go find good people and be around them.  Shape your life so that you are enriched by the daily activities that you choose to do.  Maybe living a positive life will show your brother's children that it is indeed possible to overcome and achieve happiness.  If you continue to "value" your relationship with your brother and his family, then you may be validating their dysfunction in the eyes of his children.  I think that this is the best and perhaps the only way you can help this horrid situation.

 

--Ben

[BnK_Collins]

Wow.  that's so sad, those poor kids!  I don't even know what to suggest.  I mean the fact that the partner/mother 'agnonizes' over the question is concerning.  I mean the abusive dad is an obvious problem and he clearly is not open for change but why in the world is the mother 'torn'.  

 

I mean if she is fully aware and bothered by everything you have described that SHE witnesses and experiences in her home then what's to agonize about...I think the children will respect her more for leaving and saving them from this monster. 

 

As typically the case the mother sticks around until the kids are big enough and then she leaves because then suddenly the father becomes too much for HER to bear...nevermind what she put the children through.  This too is incredibly selfish. 

 

It seems like you tried every conceivable solution with your brother who is committed to being this way but you may have hope in convincing the mother to leave with the children to get them to safer 'waters' of sorts.  Try to find out what she is benefiting by staying with him.  If it's financial (but doesn't seem to be the case if they are barely making ends meet).  But she, herself, must feel she is gaining SOMETHING that is outweighing her decision to leave and protect her kids.  

 

Maybe also look up alternative solutions for her a protection home or if you can help or take them in or other people so she feels she has a soft landingthat might encourage her to leave.  

Thanks for your reply. I spoke to the mother today and since I talked to them about this 3 days ago she said it got her thinking. She has since initiated a conversation with my brother who has admitted that he is stressed about not being able to provide for his family. (There are many more issues than this one and it has been going on since the first child was born, but it's a start.) He wants more stable work. He also went to see his Dad who is back in the country last night and apparently they had a good talk whereby his/my dad admitted that he had not been a very good father. My Dad then told him that my brother needs to be better with his children. My brother seemed to take this on. This could be the start of something. I really hope so. As for the mother, she couldn't tell me why she still stays with him but she did say she still has hope and maybe she is right from what has gone on recently. She couldn't tell me what benefit there is to the kids or for herself with him in this current state. I'm definitely not letting her off the hook here. She as a parent has a responsibility to keep her children safe from harm and she hasn't.  We'll see how things go from here.

[BnK_Collins]

If he doesnt acknowledge that theres a problem, you arent going to get anywhere. Either he doesnt believe theres a problem, or he has an inkling that there might be a problem, but doesnt want to face it.

 

Have you and your brother ever talked about your childhoods? Does he believe there was nothing wrong with his? "Well, I was hit, and I turned out ok" ?

 

Do you have an "in" to the compassion that might still be there in your brother? A shared childhood memory of when your brother was upset and hurt and in pain? Are you able to bring him back to that place?

 

Would it be dangerous to his son if you reported ( without telling him which of his kids said it) that one of his children had said "I hate my dad". Not saying it to your brother in a nasty way, or a condemnatory way, but a "Do you want your kids to hate you " way? If he is liable to take it out on his kids, then do not do this.

 

Edit: thinking about talking about your shared childhood with your brother, I am worried that this may also make things worse for his kids? It might bring his pain more into focus, and he may not be able to deal with it, and so take it out on his kids. What do other FDR people think?

 

Edit 2: if you have the opportunity, allow your brothers kids to talk to you, if they say stuff like "I hate my dad", use that as an opening to talk to them about it. Reflect back to them that they are allowed to hate and be angry.

Hi, thanks for your comments. I completely agree with you about your first point. Please see my reply to the first comment if you are interested. There has been a development.

Your suggestions have been very helpful and I will utilise them where I can.

I would wait for a moment when you can go to you brother and suggest counseling. Clearly all those involved need it. If he isn't willing to hear the first time keep saying it. Over and over again, in whatever manner is required until he sees you are concerned and that it is not an attack but a change to heal his family. 

Hi Abbie, thanks for your comment.

 

Repetition may be another useful tool I can use. I will try it.

[BnK_Collins]

Where is the female accountability in your post? What does he think of his mother? What do you think of your mother? What do you think of his wife? Why would it necessarily be in his interest to attend therapy if he is around women who do not take responsibility for their own choices? It would be the moral thing to do, but I don't see any evidence to think he cares about morality.

 

Someone brought up single motherhood as an alternative. I don't see how that can be, considering that the wife chose to marry and have four children with the husband. If she saw how abusive he was, why did she keep having children with him?

 

I grew up in a single parent home, so maybe I am biased, but I am always cautious when that is suggested as being an improvement. I don't know of any data which supports the idea that single motherhood is preferable. It could be in this situation, but I don't feel confident in anything that was shared about her to say so.

Hi Matthew,

 

There is no female accountability in this post, you are right. I would be writing a book if there was. My brother also has had issues with his mother. Not sure if they have been resolved in his mind (I don't think he can even put into words how he feels about either of his parents at this stage) however, my mother has already apologised and taken responsibility for her part in his upbringing. What do I think of my mother? I think that she has a lot of issues from her childhood that have come through in our upbringing. I think that she is an average person and that she was an average parent. I love her because I think I 'should' and I have learnt what not to do from her. I feel the same way about my father. I am angry at them both because they did a shitty job as parents. I have spent the past 5 years undoing the damage that they did to me, (which will be a lifelong thing) and I am angry because my brothers are that much further behind me when it comes to sorting their lives out as they had it worse than me. My father did not treat me badly like he did my brothers.

 

I'm sure that my brother could care about morality IF he could get past his shitty upbringing. I genuinely don't think he is an evil person. I think he is an incredibly angry one and at the moment very selfish and blind to what sort of consequences this will have for his children.

 

As for your comment about the mother continuing to have children with him even though she knew he was abusive...... I myself would not be with someone like this as I am clear about my morality. I have no idea why she kept having children with him and I bet if I asked she couldn't tell me.

 

I am interested to know what other people would answer to the question - single parent home or abusive co-parent home??

[BnK_Collins]

The easiest and most effective way to change the world is to change yourself.  You think that the issue here is your brother and his family but the problem is you.  It is your duty as someone who is striving to be a moral person to pick your battles wisely and spread virtue where it can grow.  In my opinion you are not helping your brother and his family at all and you may even be hurting them.  You are trying to use logic and reason with people that refuse to take even the smallest steps at bettering the lives of themselves and their family.  I'm sure you have heard of Dunning and Kroeger.  When you bring logic and evidence to people to try to sway their opinion, they can tend to double down and believe in their shit values even more.  I would urge you to please stop torturing yourself by attempting to help those who have shown very little sign of positive growth.  Move on and get over this situation.  Go find good people and be around them.  Shape your life so that you are enriched by the daily activities that you choose to do.  Maybe living a positive life will show your brother's children that it is indeed possible to overcome and achieve happiness.  If you continue to "value" your relationship with your brother and his family, then you may be validating their dysfunction in the eyes of his children.  I think that this is the best and perhaps the only way you can help this horrid situation.

 

--Ben

Hi Ben, thanks for your comment.

 

I disagree with your comment about the problem being me. I'm not saying that it is not problematic in the way that I am looking at this situation. I am saying that there is potentially more than one problem here.

 

Sound advice from you IF this situation did not involve children, which it does. Children can't protect themselves from this. They don't choose their parents or the decisions that their parents make.

The fact that these children happen to be my family  and that I might be able to make even the slightest bit of positive difference for them is the reason that I choose to at least try to help. I am not in their everyday lives as it is so I am not in their company and can and do separate myself from this negativity. I can accept the fact that there may well be nothing I can do to help but I still think it is worth trying.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Hi Matthew,

 

There is no female accountability in this post, you are right. I would be writing a book if there was. My brother also has had issues with his mother. Not sure if they have been resolved in his mind (I don't think he can even put into words how he feels about either of his parents at this stage) however, my mother has already apologised and taken responsibility for her part in his upbringing. What do I think of my mother? I think that she has a lot of issues from her childhood that have come through in our upbringing. I think that she is an average person and that she was an average parent. I love her because I think I 'should' and I have learnt what not to do from her. I feel the same way about my father. I am angry at them both because they did a shitty job as parents. I have spent the past 5 years undoing the damage that they did to me, (which will be a lifelong thing) and I am angry because my brothers are that much further behind me when it comes to sorting their lives out as they had it worse than me. My father did not treat me badly like he did my brothers.

 

I'm sure that my brother could care about morality IF he could get past his shitty upbringing. I genuinely don't think he is an evil person. I think he is an incredibly angry one and at the moment very selfish and blind to what sort of consequences this will have for his children.

 

As for your comment about the mother continuing to have children with him even though she knew he was abusive...... I myself would not be with someone like this as I am clear about my morality. I have no idea why she kept having children with him and I bet if I asked she couldn't tell me.

 

I am interested to know what other people would answer to the question - single parent home or abusive co-parent home??

 

But you said your dad was abusive, yet did not say anything about your mom. I'm not saying you should have, I just thought it might be important to point out; and I think the idea that the only other option besides omitting female responsibility is to write a book is not really valid. I still don't think you're holding your mother accountable in this post: "your brother has had issues with your mother." If your mother was abusive, then it seems like a shift of responsibility away from her to him to say that he has had issues with his mother. As an adult, he is more in ownership over the issue now. But as a child, it wasn't his issue, but his mother's issue. It was her moral obligation to keep him safe from abuse and she failed.

 

I am bugging you about this because I think it is important for your brother to be validated with regards to how his mother treated him, and usually a big part of validation is not giving the abusers a way out from being fully accountable for their actions. You said you don't think he even knows how he feels about his parents, and that's because he is currently acting out his hatred of them against his children, so he's not got the opportunity to see how not normal his actions are.

 

Also, I'm not sure what "resolved in his mind" means. An apology requires consistency and follow up, and if your brother does not feel resolve or forgiveness from your mom, the onus is on her to earn his forgiveness. Forgiveness is not something which is chosen by the victim, but rather it is a result of an effort by the person who did wrong to provide restitution and clarity.

 

I don't think it is valid to say your mother was abusive as a result of her upbringing, or else it wouldn't make sense for you to hold your brother or yourself to higher standards. If you can chose, so could she have, unless you are willing to say she is completely unaccountable for her actions; in which case she wouldn't be capable to take responsibility or apologize for her abuse, and wouldn't deserve people who do hold themselves responsible in her life, because she would be incapable of reciprocating in any kind of relationship.

[BnK_Collins]

But you said your dad was abusive, yet did not say anything about your mom. I'm not saying you should have, I just thought it might be important to point out; and I think the idea that the only other option besides omitting female responsibility is to write a book is not really valid. I still don't think you're holding your mother accountable in this post: "your brother has had issues with your mother." If your mother was abusive, then it seems like a shift of responsibility away from her to him to say that he has had issues with his mother. As an adult, he is more in ownership over the issue now. But as a child, it wasn't his issue, but his mother's issue. It was her moral obligation to keep him safe from abuse and she failed.

 

I am bugging you about this because I think it is important for your brother to be validated with regards to how his mother treated him, and usually a big part of validation is not giving the abusers a way out from being fully accountable for their actions. You said you don't think he even knows how he feels about his parents, and that's because he is currently acting out his hatred of them against his children, so he's not got the opportunity to see how not normal his actions are.

 

Also, I'm not sure what "resolved in his mind" means. An apology requires consistency and follow up, and if your brother does not feel resolve or forgiveness from your mom, the onus is on her to earn his forgiveness. Forgiveness is not something which is chosen by the victim, but rather it is a result of an effort by the person who did wrong to provide restitution and clarity.

 

I don't think it is valid to say your mother was abusive as a result of her upbringing, or else it wouldn't make sense for you to hold your brother or yourself to higher standards. If you can chose, so could she have, unless you are willing to say she is completely unaccountable for her actions; in which case she wouldn't be capable to take responsibility or apologize for her abuse, and wouldn't deserve people who do hold themselves responsible in her life, because she would be incapable of reciprocating in any kind of relationship.

My Mother was not and has never been abusive (please re-read my first reply to you to confirm that I did not state this) - she did not remove my brother or us from this situation, she always gave in to my brother when he acted out or demanded things from her, overcompensating for what my father wasn't doing. She would make excuses for my brother when he acted out and would give in to him because she felt sorry for him........She did not provide a good example either. I fully acknowledge that my mother played a big role in the issues that my brother has today by choosing to have children with my father and that she had choices in this situation in which she did not make good ones. And yes she did fail in keeping him safe from abuse. And yes I hold her just as accountable as I hold my father. You are right I did not say this in my original post. I am simply saying that my brother has had this conversation with my mum who has acknowledged her failings and apologised. My brother had not yet (until 2 nights ago) had this same conversation with my dad. Therefore my post was primarily about my dad, brother and how his issues with him are being transferred.

 

It's appears that I didn't give you the amount of information that you needed in order to know what was going on fully. This is what I meant by 'writing a book'. Am I correct in assuming that you wanted more background story on my brother and BOTH of the parental relationships or that you wanted me to acknowledge the female responsibility in this situation.

 

'Resolved in his mind' means that  I haven't asked my brother if he feels validated by my mothers admission that she failed on her part. I am yet to have this conversation with him.

 

I agree with everything you have said and I appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me. The concepts that you have put forward are not foreign to me. I still can't help feeling like you have zero'd in on my lack of information about the female responsibility part here and discarded what this post is really about.

 

What is your relationship with your mother like? Have you had any similar issues come up for you and her?

 

Kristie

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Thanks for taking what I said into consideration. You're correct that I don't see this post about your brother specifically. Sorry if I was not more honest about that. I think I could have been a lot more clear to say that what I was really putting forward was for you, to help if I could be able to hold your mother more responsible. I thought any effect you could have to hold your mother more responsible would help you and your brother in this situation, since I'm not sure how to handle it practically.

 

What do the children think of their mom? (I cringe at even calling her that)

 

I wanted to point out that the damage they are undergoing from their father's and mother's actions are literally crushing them. I am sorry I don't have specific data on this (but there is data.. I'll dig it up), but in my personal experience of my childhood, hatred expressed in the form of verbal abuse from my mother was a source of seemingly eternal torture for me because of how afraid I would be of the next lashing. These were a source of severe depression and suicidal thoughts when I became a teenager. There is a likely hood that is high that if their situation does not alter radically, they will experience similarly horrible self image. The hatred they are being filled with is like a balloon that waits to pop into severely bad life decisions unless there is someone looking out for them. They will have no idea when they first become teenagers what a healthy relationship which isn't abusive is. Virtually no teens in society are given any preparation at all for the effects of their trauma. It is equivalent to having soldiers come home and completely omitting them any information about PTSD.

 

So if you can in any way warn them about the risks they face when they are age appropriate, I think that would be hugely admirable. I also wanted to tell you how sorry I am for how difficult you said your childhood was and how you will be continuing to work on it for the rest of your life. That is a huge burden and I'm so sorry that was unjustly placed on you. I can relate and I am working towards going to therapy to process it more, but as I alluded my childhood and specifically my relationship with my single mother were horrid. The issue of holding females responsible is severely important for me; because I know until someone said out loud that I could hold my mother accountable for her abuse, I was significantly at risk to repeat the abuse of my heart by exposing it to cold and soul-sucking women. I didn't mean to suggest you were unfamiliar with these concepts, but I thought they might be important in how you are processing your experience (which includes you trying to put yourself into the shoes of the children involved). I know I significantly split my parents as a child into better and worse when in fact they were both about equally immoral; a level far more immoral then I ever was safe to consider them as a child. I'm not saying that is happening for you or for the children, but especially for boys it is very important to be able for them to have realistic understandings of modern women.

 

That's kind of a huge topic, and sorry if I was ranting at all, but I have a lot to say about boys' and men's relationship with female responsibility.

[Livemike]

"He seems particularly hateful of his eldest boy who has just turned 7."
That would be the kid who put into his partner when he was 19-20?  Yeah pretty sure that wasn't deliberate, particularly if he had a bad father himself.  So I'm guessing he resents the kid for killing off whatever dreams he had.  

Did he only become abusive after he lost full-time work or was it before that?  If the latter then I'd be wary of any improvement that comes after he claims it's about financial stress.

[brucethecollie]

That is so sad, I'm so very sorry   I'd say stay away from him but I understand you are an uncle and that complicates matters. I am in a similar situation with two siblings. I had to cut off any ties to one and to the other, well, the only thing that has helped is to live by example-at least one sibling is being inspired to change and is making steps in the right direction. I feel terrible about my one niece I don't have contact with but the parents make the situation impossible. In both cases, my siblings were not ready to be parents and chose a terrible partner and they emit this awful underlying tone of resentment towards the kids.