Why You're Not Going to Therapy

[kathryn]

Wrote an article for Self Knowledge Daily. Check it out!

 

 

Why You’re Not Going to Therapy

Common Excuses

 

Many people claim they want to start therapy, but time passes and they never take the first steps. They have a barrage of excuses for why they can’t start therapy right now, but the barriers are usually self-imposed and not based in the reality of personal responsibility.

 

These are the most common excuses I’ve heard about not going to therapy:

 

“I know I need to go to therapy, but I’m just not doing it.”

 

No one needs to do anything in life but basic bodily functions like breathing and eventually dying. Therapy is certainly not a basic survival need. Using “need” language for things that aren’t real needs creates an urgency and exaggeration. At worst it’s force, just using stronger language to make yourself do it.

 

Attempts to force yourself to do things don’t work in the long term because no one likes to be ordered around. You rebel by delaying. Like when your mom used to tell you that you needed to take the garbage out right now. Did you just hop to it with a smile on your face? Hell no. You hemmed and hawed to keep your dignity. That’s the kind of microcosm that’s happening in your mind when you try to force yourself to do something. One part of you becomes your mother, the other part become the rebellious child.

 

You don’t need to go to therapy; you will continue to live if you don’t go to therapy. Therapy is not about surviving; it’s about thriving. If you want to improve the quality of your life there are good arguments for how therapy can help you, but ultimately it is your choice.

 

If a part of you does want to go to therapy and another part is resistant, try some negotiation strategies with yourself. See if you can find a solution that would make both parts happy. (If you have trouble with that, a good place to work on getting better at self-negotiation is therapy, btw.)

 

“I had a bad experience with therapy in the past.”

 

Finding a good therapist can often feel like dating. You shop around, find someone you’re drawn to in some way, but you can’t really know if it’s going to work out until you take them out and chat with them a while. You have to make the investment of a first date. Sometimes that first date doesn’t go well. Or, even worse, the first date goes great, you get attached, and then things don’t go well. And I understand, when you get close to someone and they hurt you, it can be difficult to get back out there.

 

But, just like dating, there are more efficient ways of figuring out if you are compatible, aside from picking someone with a friendly smile. You can avoid getting hurt if you look for the right clues and ask right the questions in your first phone consultation.

 

Not all therapists are great, but it’s not just a crap shoot. You can evaluate people and know quickly if they are going to be helpful, if you do some initial work up front.

 

“I just don’t have the money for that right now.”

 

The reality is we all make choices when it comes to money. You are choosing to spend your money elsewhere. And that’s ok, but just be honest about it. You could afford therapy, but you’re choosing not to.

 

It’s true that some therapists are very expensive, but I had a friend who was able to see a therapist for $5 a session. Many therapists have a sliding scale for folks with lower incomes. There are plenty of options out there. You just might have to get a bit creative.

 

You may think looking for a cheaper therapist will limit your choices, but therapy is self-directed. Your therapeutic experience comes down to what you make of it. The person might not have a fancy office, but if he or she is empathetic and curious about you, you can work with that and make real progress.

 

“Won’t drudging up the past, just make it worse?”

 

In the short term, it will feel painful to bring up past trauma, but the avoidance of pain only prolongs it. You are most likely already feeling the pain of your past, but in a low, creeping dose that you get every day, in the anxiety that paralyzes you, in the self-attacks you inflict on yourself when you make a mistake, and in the depression that had you unproductive and useless.

 

What questions like this really mean is: I’m afraid of feeling my pain. And I get that, emotional pain sucks, but when you numb one emotion you numb them all. So by dulling your sadness or fear, you are also dulling your joy and happiness. The avoidance is not benign.

 

“I’m scared.”

 

I haven’t actually heard anyone else use this one, except for myself to myself, but I think this is what all the other excuses come down to.

 

It is scary. It’s terrifying to deal with the shadow parts of yourself and face childhood trauma. And because it’s so scary to delve into history, that’s why you shouldn’t have to do it alone, and that’s why a therapist can help you so much. He or she can help you face the demons one at a time. Having someone there to hold your hand, help you sort through things piece by piece, keeps you grounded.

 

Fear alone isn’t cowardly, but there is cowardice in lying to yourself and denying your feelings. Feel the fear, and then find a therapist who can help you deal with it.

[dono14]

I've found there to be a lot of poor therapists.  In many cases they've just asked how I felt about a circumstance, or agreed with my comments, and haven't made any suggestions.

 

In these cases, it seems like they're just punching a clock until the session's over.  The more deleterious effect is that I suspected that they fundamentally disliked me and were using the process to subvert my trust in therapy and people in general.  I've never been able to speak my mind.  The last one I saw worked at a discounted rate, associated with the Catholic church, and I got the impression from various comments was a strong leftist.  So by speaking freely, I think poisoned the relationship.  However, I didn't have the cash to pay a lot, and felt like my paying $30-$40/hr was more than just compensation.  I was getting $15-20/hr to do what I considered more difficult work.

 

The alternative is to buy a pack of cigarettes and talk to people at an AA meeting or on the street, but you get a variety of stabilities there.  I think that many people use that or a bar as a therapy as the cost is lower.

 

I've also had significant trouble with female gendered therapists.  Whenever I bring up core issues, they get avoidant or passive-aggressive.  The last one I saw stalled for 20 minutes before our meeting.  It's this classic female chicken group behavior where they gather into a group whenever something they don't want to deal with comes up.  I've also had a few refuse to see me.  I think my broaching of misandry in society is related.  Also, most of the male therapists I've seen are effeminate and while having the courage to stay in the room and at least acknowledge my feelings, don't appear to take them seriously.

 

I think the fundamental problem is that there are a lot of unethical people out there, and when they are confronted with the truth, immediately appeal to coercive authority to hide it from the 'true self.'  As many counselors are LCSWs, and are beholden to the government via grants or insurance schemes, they have conflicts of interest.  And with the going rate of $100/hour generally for private ones, puts them out of many's grasp.  I think the economic angle is conveniently neglected frequently in board and podcast discussions.  Especially if one uses the median rather than mean figures, adjusts for persons not receiving government benefits, etc.

[rosencrantz]

You forgot to mention that a lot of people don't go to therapy because they don't think it's more effective than doing nothing at all.

[kathryn]

I've found there to be a lot of poor therapists.  

 

I certainly agree that there are a lot of bad therapists in the world, but I believe it's fairly easy to evaluate if someone is going to be good or bad for you. It just takes initial work up front to find someone who is open, empathetic, and curious. 

 

I've also found that continuing to give feedback to my therapist, telling her what is working for me and what isn't, has been really useful. I am paying her, and she's providing me a service. She wants the feedback, so she can better serve her client. 

 

In these cases, it seems like they're just punching a clock until the session's over.  The more deleterious effect is that I suspected that they fundamentally disliked me and were using the process to subvert my trust in therapy and people in general.  I've never been able to speak my mind.  

 

Did you try telling your therapist that this was your experience of them?

 

Therapy is a great place to practice RTR. For example, once during a session, my therapist laughed at something I said, something that wasn't intended to be funny, and it hurt me. Right there in the moment I spoke up about my experience. I told her how her comment made me feel and what my perception was. We talked about it, and I was able to find an insight about my own childhood, about the times I was laughed at as a child, and how that effected me.

 

Because of my honesty, I didn't go home with this jilted sensation in my gut, I left the session feeling proud of myself for fighting through my discomfort, being honest, and seeing things more clearly. This practice has made it that much easier to do the same thing in my personal relationships. 

 

The alternative is to buy a pack of cigarettes and talk to people at an AA meeting or on the street, but you get a variety of stabilities there.  I think that many people use that or a bar as a therapy as the cost is lower.

 

One of the benefits of long term therapy that I've read about has to do with the relationship itself. Through building a healthy and consistent attachment to another person, one can heal the anxious or avoidant attachment they may have had with their parents. Therapists are safe because the boundaries are so clear; that clarity brings a level of security. Using a random person at a bar wouldn't have this same effect. 

 

I've also had significant trouble with female gendered therapists.  Whenever I bring up core issues, they get avoidant or passive-aggressive.  The last one I saw stalled for 20 minutes before our meeting.  It's this classic female chicken group behavior where they gather into a group whenever something they don't want to deal with comes up.  I've also had a few refuse to see me.  I think my broaching of misandry in society is related.  Also, most of the male therapists I've seen are effeminate and while having the courage to stay in the room and at least acknowledge my feelings, don't appear to take them seriously.

 

I think the fundamental problem is that there are a lot of unethical people out there, and when they are confronted with the truth, immediately appeal to coercive authority to hide it from the 'true self.'  As many counselors are LCSWs, and are beholden to the government via grants or insurance schemes, they have conflicts of interest.  And with the going rate of $100/hour generally for private ones, puts them out of many's grasp.  I think the economic angle is conveniently neglected frequently in board and podcast discussions.  Especially if one uses the median rather than mean figures, adjusts for persons not receiving government benefits, etc.

 

Passivity is a problem with the entire field of psychology for sure. All that hippy dippy, zen crap. I had a therapist who told me once to "trust in the universe." Total bullshit. I had a friend who's therapist told him he need to "deal with his anger problems" before he could "forgive his dad." BULLSHIT. This kind of thing is really troubling, but you don't have to see these kinds of people. 

 

If you were looking for a therapist, you could ask them how they feel about misandry on your first (free) phone consultation. Gage their reaction carefully. They may have never heard of the term before, but if they are curious and want to know more that's a good sign. If they are defensive or passive aggressive, hang up the phone! 

 

Those kinds of people do sadly seem like the majority, but it's not everyone. I've also discovered through my work with my own therapist, while she helps me see patterns, emotional truths, and internal motivation, I'm also educating her. And that actually feels good because she is so receptive and curious. 

 

Through frequent reevaluation and checking in, you can not only protect yourself from getting screwed by unethical people, you can also practice the negotiation skills vital to any intimate relationship (including your relationship with yourself!). It just takes a commitment to honesty and to trusting yourself. If something feels off, speak up! Unethical people want to stay far away from truth tellers. 

[Kevin Beal]

You forgot to mention that a lot of people don't go to therapy because they don't think it's more effective than doing nothing at all.

There are a thousand different things people could say. I don't think it's meant as an exhaustive list of potential objections.

[myclippedwings]

 

Wrote an article for Self Knowledge Daily. Check it out!

 

 

Why You’re Not Going to Therapy

Common Excuses

 

Many people claim they want to start therapy, but time passes and they never take the first steps. They have a barrage of excuses for why they can’t start therapy right now, but the barriers are usually self-imposed and not based in the reality of personal responsibility.

 

These are the most common excuses I’ve heard about not going to therapy:

 

“I know I need to go to therapy, but I’m just not doing it.”

 

No one needs to do anything in life but basic bodily functions like breathing and eventually dying. Therapy is certainly not a basic survival need. Using “need” language for things that aren’t real needs creates an urgency and exaggeration. At worst it’s force, just using stronger language to make yourself do it.

 

Attempts to force yourself to do things don’t work in the long term because no one likes to be ordered around. You rebel by delaying. Like when your mom used to tell you that you needed to take the garbage out right now. Did you just hop to it with a smile on your face? Hell no. You hemmed and hawed to keep your dignity. That’s the kind of microcosm that’s happening in your mind when you try to force yourself to do something. One part of you becomes your mother, the other part become the rebellious child.

 

You don’t need to go to therapy; you will continue to live if you don’t go to therapy. Therapy is not about surviving; it’s about thriving. If you want to improve the quality of your life there are good arguments for how therapy can help you, but ultimately it is your choice.

 

If a part of you does want to go to therapy and another part is resistant, try some negotiation strategies with yourself. See if you can find a solution that would make both parts happy. (If you have trouble with that, a good place to work on getting better at self-negotiation is therapy, btw.)

 

“I had a bad experience with therapy in the past.”

 

Finding a good therapist can often feel like dating. You shop around, find someone you’re drawn to in some way, but you can’t really know if it’s going to work out until you take them out and chat with them a while. You have to make the investment of a first date. Sometimes that first date doesn’t go well. Or, even worse, the first date goes great, you get attached, and then things don’t go well. And I understand, when you get close to someone and they hurt you, it can be difficult to get back out there.

 

But, just like dating, there are more efficient ways of figuring out if you are compatible, aside from picking someone with a friendly smile. You can avoid getting hurt if you look for the right clues and ask right the questions in your first phone consultation.

 

Not all therapists are great, but it’s not just a crap shoot. You can evaluate people and know quickly if they are going to be helpful, if you do some initial work up front.

 

“I just don’t have the money for that right now.”

 

The reality is we all make choices when it comes to money. You are choosing to spend your money elsewhere. And that’s ok, but just be honest about it. You could afford therapy, but you’re choosing not to.

 

It’s true that some therapists are very expensive, but I had a friend who was able to see a therapist for $5 a session. Many therapists have a sliding scale for folks with lower incomes. There are plenty of options out there. You just might have to get a bit creative.

 

You may think looking for a cheaper therapist will limit your choices, but therapy is self-directed. Your therapeutic experience comes down to what you make of it. The person might not have a fancy office, but if he or she is empathetic and curious about you, you can work with that and make real progress.

 

“Won’t drudging up the past, just make it worse?”

 

In the short term, it will feel painful to bring up past trauma, but the avoidance of pain only prolongs it. You are most likely already feeling the pain of your past, but in a low, creeping dose that you get every day, in the anxiety that paralyzes you, in the self-attacks you inflict on yourself when you make a mistake, and in the depression that had you unproductive and useless.

 

What questions like this really mean is: I’m afraid of feeling my pain. And I get that, emotional pain sucks, but when you numb one emotion you numb them all. So by dulling your sadness or fear, you are also dulling your joy and happiness. The avoidance is not benign.

 

“I’m scared.”

 

I haven’t actually heard anyone else use this one, except for myself to myself, but I think this is what all the other excuses come down to.

 

It is scary. It’s terrifying to deal with the shadow parts of yourself and face childhood trauma. And because it’s so scary to delve into history, that’s why you shouldn’t have to do it alone, and that’s why a therapist can help you so much. He or she can help you face the demons one at a time. Having someone there to hold your hand, help you sort through things piece by piece, keeps you grounded.

 

Fear alone isn’t cowardly, but there is cowardice in lying to yourself and denying your feelings. Feel the fear, and then find a therapist who can help you deal with it.

 

What about people who want to self heal and don't feel ready yet to start the big bad search for the "right" therapist?

 

I used the term "self healing" because I believe that therapists just help us to do what we should be able to naturally do for ourselves, which is pay attention to our emotions?

[Pod]

Well I'm not going to therapy until I get a job.  I'm living on zilch right now.  I am powering through the podcasts though which should speed up the sessions and save me money. 

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I've made all these excuses before, with a special emphasis on #2, and #5 in close second. #5 I have had the experience of sheer terror when I thought of therapy at some times, which in an odd way was sort of validating in that I really could benefit from understanding why I felt it. I want to have those deep emotional experiences, but for me they are fleeting because in many ways I use the #2 excuse to avoid reality, and live in imposturous absolutes - "have to go to therapy" - "have to quit smoking" - "have to exercise more" -

 

"have to do "x" to avoid feeling regret or sadness or any genuine emotion in the present moment" is usually the form it takes for me, and if I put myself in a position where I'm incapable of feeling emotion (seeing my mom, smoking weed), then I will be so frustrated that I want to invent some dictate I can focus on instead of feeling the sadness or regret or anger from smoking or being around my mom.

 

I find that kind of thinking in myself very deceptive and dissociating. When I let go of these absolutes, I connect more genuinely with my emotions, and in every instance where I retreat from my emotions and go back to absolutes, I feel filled with frustration and want to punish myself. It's sort of a vicious cycle, but self inflicted and so onerous to take part in, that when I have genuine emotion, I have a blanketing sense of regret, because I see on almost every occasion that any genuine emotion with a sober mind is preferable and infinitely more fulfilling than living in a land of tyranny, with the dictator of "needs." When I am sober and have a wonderful and genuine moment, it is hard not to notice how many of those I have lost out on by engaging this vicious cycle - but today I combatted this with a rational approach to try and limit my regret to focusing on the part of it which will help me and inform me of what I can do now in the present to relieve it, rather than perhaps letting it overwhelm me. (though it could be the self attack which overwhelms me after the regret, not the feeling itself.. not sure yet)

 

I appreciate how bluntly you wrote this article. I found it challenging in the best ways.

[MiraiRonin]

@ Pod

 

I can see the logic in that; I didn't make much progress in my therapy until after I'd imbibed a fair bit of FDR. Was that the best approach? Hard to say; on the one hand, I didn't make much progress until I understood the importance of early childhood experiences and brought that perspective to my therapy sessions. On the other, would that new perspective have been as beneficial had I not had an established, positive relationship with my therapist? Tough call.

[kathryn]

What about people who want to self heal and don't feel ready yet to start the big bad search for the "right" therapist?

 

I used the term "self healing" because I believe that therapists just help us to do what we should be able to naturally do for ourselves, which is pay attention to our emotions?

 

What do you mean by not feeling ready for therapy? Can you be more specific? What does it look like to be ready for therapy?

 

Therapists do help with understanding and processing emotions, among other things. I mentioned above that one of the benefits of long term therapy is in the relationship itself. The process of building a healthy, positive, and secure attachment to another person is therapeutically healing. 

 

Well I'm not going to therapy until I get a job.  I'm living on zilch right now.  I am powering through the podcasts though which should speed up the sessions and save me money. 

 

I think Real-Time Relationships is the best resource to prepare for therapy, but beyond that anything that you can do which involves active processing would really put you ahead of the curve. Things like audio journaling, Nathanial Branden's sentence completions, making emotional tigger lists (taking note of things that made you feel anxious, sad, angry, etc.), and exploring your therapeutic and life goals (What would you want to accomplish in therapy? What would you want you life to look like after therapy?). Listening to podcasts is great; they can be a great resource, but great chefs didn't get that way from reading cookbooks. They improved their skills by getting in the kitchen and cooking. 

[myclippedwings]

What do you mean by not feeling ready for therapy? Can you be more specific? What does it look like to be ready for therapy?

 

Therapists do help with understanding and processing emotions, among other things. I mentioned above that one of the benefits of long term therapy is in the relationship itself. The process of building a healthy, positive, and secure attachment to another person is therapeutically healing. 

 

 

I think Real-Time Relationships is the best resource to prepare for therapy, but beyond that anything that you can do which involves active processing would really put you ahead of the curve. Things like audio journaling, Nathanial Branden's sentence completions, making emotional tigger lists (taking note of things that made you feel anxious, sad, angry, etc.), and exploring your therapeutic and life goals (What would you want to accomplish in therapy? What would you want you life to look like after therapy?). Listening to podcasts is great; they can be a great resource, but great chiefs didn't get that way from reading cookbooks. They improved their skills by getting in the kitchen and cooking. 

Well,

 

Just the effort of starting to search for a therapist feels daunting and I don't have much hope for a therapist who respects the seriousness of child abuse.

 

I feel that therapy is supposed to help us live with our emotions again, after being trained since childhood to live against them. I feel that if I don't feel "ready" or don't have much "faith" in therapists, I might as well try to connect with my emotions on my own.

 

It would be harder and lonelier, but it's certainly possible. Also, I feel that even if I get to a therapist, no real progress will be made unless I make the choice to be conscious of my emotions. I feel that therapists can't get into my head and make that choice for me, I feel it's more self directed. I think being ready for therapy means you acknowledge the first step towards being emotionally conscious starts with yourself, therapists are there to help you keep making that choice, but they can't make the choice for you. So I feel that even if I force myself into therapy, not much will change unless I recognize the choice I have.

 

I just see therapy more as an aid to help me with what I'm already capable of doing. 

 

I will still consider therapy in the future, but for now I feel that it's not worth the effort and the disappointment of searching for the "right" therapist

[dono14]

 

Through frequent reevaluation and checking in, you can not only protect yourself from getting screwed by unethical people, you can also practice the negotiation skills vital to any intimate relationship (including your relationship with yourself!). It just takes a commitment to honesty and to trusting yourself. If something feels off, speak up! Unethical people want to stay far away from truth tellers. 

 

Thanks for the reply, 1st extended 1 on the boards.  I had another negative experience being late to a substance abuse counseling session to get a driver's license back after a DUI.  The staff was horrible, and I thought there had to be something better.  I then realized that 90% of the clients were court-ordered under probation- my DUI was in Wisconsin, the last state to charge DUI municipally rather than criminally, and I just have to see a counselor monthly. I went with a parent, who immediately exploded and went hysterical. 

 

Taking a walk with smartphone, I found a couple online counselor services.  It struck me that by participating in a non-violent system, finding a counselor online, that would remove the threat of jail out of the system.  I found a therapist who was very personable and plan to meet weekly.  It is expensive though.

 

My last couple therapists worked at reduced cost, and whenever I called places was suggested to go there.  I think as many of these places are government grant-supported, a lot of people get funded there.  The guy had a successful private practice but worked there also.  I mentioned a couple libertarian things which he seemed to resent, which may have poisoned things.  By participating in a free market (self-pay), I've found a few willing to work for reduced rates.  It was a bit of a breakthrough as had I stayed in WI, I would have been suggested to go to a 'treatment' processing-center with very maladapted people.  The first time I had legal trouble, getting caught smoking pot, I had to go to weekly group counseling, at the end of which (I was 19 then) the counselor (about 25) informed us that while she had originally thought we were bad people, she now understood we were people too.  That dismissiveness destroyed about 75% of the previously accumulated work, but explained a lot of the body language she had, and the polarized dynamic between the us of compelled attendees and the them of her.

 

Anyway,

It's also difficult to say no to someone for me who's offering to help.  Given my problems with rejection, I hate rejecting people, and try to take a lot of care when doing so.  The internet makes it a little easier.  Alternatively, most of my therapeutic relationships have been abusive in my opinion as the therapist has seemed to question what's wrong with me or belittled.  I think that may be a way to keep clients.  I've heard that many cluster Bs are attracted to the profession to learn how people work to exploit them further.  You'd have to assume some sadists would be attracted to the vulnerable, and that being a psychologist for many people would be a thing of pride which an intelligent person might threaten.  Especially viewing that any core issues I've brought up have been suppressed by the therapist, sidetracked in passive-aggressive fashion usually

[Jot]

What is it exactly doing with a therapist that you could not do otherwise?

[Jot]

There are a thousand different things people could say. I don't think it's meant as an exhaustive list of potential objections.

I think rose did a great job bringing that excuse up because I believe this is in fact the most common one.

 

It might not be the most popular among FDR audience but I think I have never heard one more used by the general population than this one and it's various forms...I.e. "therapy is useless" etc...

[Kevin Beal]

I think rose did a great job bringing that excuse up because I believe this is in fact the most common one.

 

It might not be the most popular among FDR audience but I think I have never heard one more used by the general population than this one and it's various forms...I.e. "therapy is useless" etc...

Who do you imagine the target audience of this piece is?

 

If someone doesn't think that therapy is good for anything, then the scope of the article would have to include a case detailed and compelling enough to convince someone who held that belief. That would require an article of it's own, at least.

 

I won't speak for the author, but my own impression is that most people who frequent the boards are at least open to the idea of psychotherapy, and based on the content of the article, I would guess that the target audience is just this type of person.

 

What is it exactly doing with a therapist that you could not do otherwise?

Technically, nothing. You could do all of your own car maintenance, start your own company, diagnose and treat your own illnesses, and a whole variety of things you wouldn't necessarily want to do, and which may actually cause more grief than is worth the effort. The fact that you could technically do something is not an argument against paying someone to do it for you.

 

We pay therapists for their expertise, their commitment to our growth and to help us see the things our psychology has been maladapted specifically to keep out of our own awareness.

[Jot]

Who do you imagine the target audience of this piece is?

 

If someone doesn't think that therapy is good for anything, then the scope of the article would have to include a case detailed and compelling enough to convince someone who held that belief. That would require an article of it's own, at least.

 

I won't speak for the author, but my own impression is that most people who frequent the boards are at least open to the idea of psychotherapy, and based on the content of the article, I would guess that the target audience is just this type of person.

 

Verry fair point.

 

 

Technically, nothing. You could do all of your own car maintenance, start your own company, diagnose and treat your own illnesses, and a whole variety of things you wouldn't necessarily want to do, and which may actually cause more grief than is worth the effort. The fact that you could technically do something is not an argument against paying someone to do it for you.

 

We pay therapists for their expertise, their commitment to our growth and to help us see the things our psychology has been maladapted specifically to keep out of our own awareness.

 

Indeed...shortly after I posted this question I realized that a better question to have asked would have been: To what degree is self-therapy limited compared to therapy with a therapist? What is the difference between the cost-benefits of those two options? 

[kathryn]

Thanks for the reply, 1st extended 1 on the boards.  I had another negative experience being late to a substance abuse counseling session to get a driver's license back after a DUI.  The staff was horrible, and I thought there had to be something better.  I then realized that 90% of the clients were court-ordered under probation- my DUI was in Wisconsin, the last state to charge DUI municipally rather than criminally, and I just have to see a counselor monthly. I went with a parent, who immediately exploded and went hysterical. 

 

Taking a walk with smartphone, I found a couple online counselor services.  It struck me that by participating in a non-violent system, finding a counselor online, that would remove the threat of jail out of the system.  I found a therapist who was very personable and plan to meet weekly.  It is expensive though.

 

My last couple therapists worked at reduced cost, and whenever I called places was suggested to go there.  I think as many of these places are government grant-supported, a lot of people get funded there.  The guy had a successful private practice but worked there also.  I mentioned a couple libertarian things which he seemed to resent, which may have poisoned things.  By participating in a free market (self-pay), I've found a few willing to work for reduced rates.  It was a bit of a breakthrough as had I stayed in WI, I would have been suggested to go to a 'treatment' processing-center with very maladapted people.  The first time I had legal trouble, getting caught smoking pot, I had to go to weekly group counseling, at the end of which (I was 19 then) the counselor (about 25) informed us that while she had originally thought we were bad people, she now understood we were people too.  That dismissiveness destroyed about 75% of the previously accumulated work, but explained a lot of the body language she had, and the polarized dynamic between the us of compelled attendees and the them of her.

 

Anyway,

It's also difficult to say no to someone for me who's offering to help.  Given my problems with rejection, I hate rejecting people, and try to take a lot of care when doing so.  The internet makes it a little easier.  Alternatively, most of my therapeutic relationships have been abusive in my opinion as the therapist has seemed to question what's wrong with me or belittled.  I think that may be a way to keep clients.  I've heard that many cluster Bs are attracted to the profession to learn how people work to exploit them further.  You'd have to assume some sadists would be attracted to the vulnerable, and that being a psychologist for many people would be a thing of pride which an intelligent person might threaten.  Especially viewing that any core issues I've brought up have been suppressed by the therapist, sidetracked in passive-aggressive fashion usually

 

I'm sorry to hear you've had such bad experiences with therapists and counselors.

 

Being forced to go by the courts is awful. I don't think I would have been able to make much progress in therapy if there was a proxy gun to my head. I'm really sorry that you were in that situation.

 

The appointed counselors in situations of forced therapy after criminal behavior (like driving under the influence) often have been exposed to a lot people who don't want help and continuously repeat their destructive patterns. The counselors can be disillusioned or even scared for their safety. In that situation it may be useful to think about how you might look from the perspective of the therapist. It's very rare for them to come across a person who is intelligent and has real potential for lifelong change. Most will desperately want a client like you, but when they first see you in a group of criminals they won't know that you are different. (And if you listen to FDR, I think it's fair to say that you are different.) Taking a moment to remember this may help you not take their initial judgments as personally. 

 

Also, while it is awful that you were forced to do therapy against your will, there is some logic in why they would want you to do that. Figuring out why you decided to drive under the influence is vital to not doing it again. If they had just fined you or sent you to jail you would likely just repeat the behavior, but with a counselor and through introspection you could stop this pattern. Getting a DUI is pretty serious. I don't know how drunk you were, but you could have really hurt yourself or others. Why were you driving drunk? 

 

I'm glad you are processing how the therapists were passive aggressive with you and how certain body language indicated their discomfort. Reflecting on these experiences will help as you move forward and become more discriminating with who you accept help from. 

 

Good luck with the new counselor. I hope very much that it goes well. 

[Kevin Beal]

To what degree is self-therapy limited compared to therapy with a therapist? What is the difference between the cost-benefits of those two options? 

If you're doing therapy with a psychotherapist responsibly, you are also doing self therapy. It should be very self directed. You can't be passive in therapy just because they are the therapist and you are the client.

 

If you are totally competent being your own therapist, then you don't need to hire a trained therapist. A therapist should be teaching you the skills to become your own therapist, gain knowledge about yourself, learn how to take control of your life, etc.

 

If you aren't competent at being your own therapist, the best place to learn how to get there is under the guidance of a professional. You may be able to learn without one, but I've seen people try and I don't think they get what they are in for. It's a hell of a lot harder than it looks.

 

Are you learning to be your own therapist? How's it going? How do you know how well it's going? Do you not feel lost and aimless?

[Jot]

If you're doing therapy with a psychotherapist responsibly, you are also doing self therapy. It should be very self directed. You can't be passive in therapy just because they are the therapist and you are the client.

 

If you are totally competent being your own therapist, then you don't need to hire a trained therapist. A therapist should be teaching you the skills to become your own therapist, gain knowledge about yourself, learn how to take control of your life, etc.

 

If you aren't competent at being your own therapist, the best place to learn how to get there is under the guidance of a professional. You may be able to learn without one, but I've seen people try and I don't think they get what they are in for. It's a hell of a lot harder than it looks.

That's quite a persuasive argument, I have never given this therapy thing too much thought but I will have to consider this idea more seriously from now on.

 

 

Are you learning to be your own therapist? How's it going? How do you know how well it's going? Do you not feel lost and aimless?

When I first started listening to FDR, listening to the call-in shows where callers were discussing problems that are usually dealt with in therapy such as social anxiety, isolation, depression, fear, bullying, emotions...and so forth I had tons of epiphanies...the kind of epiphanies that I did not have reading, skimming, searching any kind of psychology/therapy book, website, video, scientific study, article...etc. 

 

Nonetheless, something that I remember always feeling somehow confused by when I was a new listener was the fact that at the end of every such call Stefan would suggest at the end him/her going into therapy...the confusing part about this universal suggestion was that in my mind more or less consciously it would always arise the question along the lines of "Who (what therapist) the fuck could top that? (the caller-Stefan discussion). Looking back at this now I think that what I was really "asking" was who other than Stefan would be able to make me feel the same power, liveliness, grief, healthy anger, hope, calmness etc...that I felt listening to a lot of the personal centered call-in shows.

 

To me, those call-in shows felt like therapy...having my crape veil of unawareness and reality swaying and distortion lifted off of my eyes to the true causes and roots of a lot of my psychological issues. 

 

The fundamental difference that is between Stefan and the almost boundless majority of the people, therapists included, that I always sensed was his unseen, in somebody else by me, capacity for and degree of empathy that only comes as a result of capability to reason, processing reality as it is and massive amounts of wisdom accumulated throughout decades of philosophical inquiry. 

 

Maybe, unfortunately believing that I won't find a therapist with similar proportions of rationality, empathy, maturity, willingness to be challenged and corrected and so on I always had an uneasy feeling about me going into therapy...why is this so important to me I do not fully understand but I know that mentally picturing me opening to and letting my whole true self out is the significantly easiest with Stefan, there is no other person I can mentally picture being able to and having a relative easy time with exposing my true self without significant fears, feelings and thoughts of self-attack, and this is my big hurdle with therapy. I for whatever reason seem to believe that the only way I could really profit from therapy is if the therapist is very like-minded with Stefan,

 

However...I was really taken aback by what Stefan said in regards to his own therapist, that he so warmly always talked about, I cannot really remember the exact word he used but it was synonymous with "hack", he said that philosophically she was a "hack", which startled me deeply since I always seemed to believe that the only way you can truly profit from therapy with a therapist is if he/she is very philosophically rigorous and rational.

 

 

 

"Are you learning to be your own therapist? How's it going? How do you know how well it's going? Do you not feel lost and aimless?"

 

All, good questions. 

 

I have taken some steps here and there, not to the degree to which you should consider big leaps forward but if it were not for my seemingly everlasting fluctuating mood I would have been much further.

 

The degree to which I feel lost and aimless is a function of mood. The more depressed I feel the more helpless, aimless and lost I feel but whenever I have some good days I don't seem to feel this way at all, quite the opposite sometimes, even tough the challenge is to increase the number of good or relatively good days and diminish the number of days in which I feel like shit.

 

 

How would I do that? I do not know yet...the case for has been made...it looks like an option I would consider now, the fact that I am scared of it and seem to make quite a few rationalizations against is proof that there is growth to be made from it.

[Kevin Beal]

I can relate to the aimlessness and fluctuating mood. Therapy helped a lot with that.

 

Stef would probably make a fantastic therapist if that was his calling. If you're looking for him in a therapist, then you may be disappointed.

 

Calling into the show is more of a "steer you in the right direction" kind of experience. Therapy will offer you epiphanies, but I don't personally think that epiphanies are worth very much if you don't apply your newfound knowledge toward improving your situation and mastery over life. A good therapist will be there to help you do that, be your cheerleader, hold you accountable over time, etc.

 

I think talking about your philosophical differences with a therapist can actually be very therapeutic. They will likely disagree on a lot, but exploring the anxiety of bringing things up, the frustration with trying to get complex ideas across, the embarrassment of failing, etc., with someone who you can have productive disagreements with will add a lot to your self esteem and confidence in social situations.

 

That was my experience anyway. 

[kathryn]

To me, those call-in shows felt like therapy...having my crape veil of unawareness and reality swaying and distortion lifted off of my eyes to the true causes and roots of a lot of my psychological issues. 

 

The fundamental difference that is between Stefan and the almost boundless majority of the people, therapists included, that I always sensed was his unseen, in somebody else by me, capacity for and degree of empathy that only comes as a result of capability to reason, processing reality as it is and massive amounts of wisdom accumulated throughout decades of philosophical inquiry. 

 

Maybe, unfortunately believing that I won't find a therapist with similar proportions of rationality, empathy, maturity, willingness to be challenged and corrected and so on I always had an uneasy feeling about me going into therapy...why is this so important to me I do not fully understand but I know that mentally picturing me opening to and letting my whole true self out is the significantly easiest with Stefan, there is no other person I can mentally picture being able to and having a relative easy time with exposing my true self without significant fears, feelings and thoughts of self-attack, and this is my big hurdle with therapy. I for whatever reason seem to believe that the only way I could really profit from therapy is if the therapist is very like-minded with Stefan.

 

I have a theory, which I could be totally wrong about, but here it is. 

 

I think listening to the podcasts for a long time without applying the principles takes a toll on one's self esteem. If love is the involuntary attraction to virtue, then self love too is fostered through virtuous action. One of the most fundamental virtues is integrity, consistency between ideas, behavior, and reality. 

 

It's confusing to me when I hear that you say you admire Stef so much, but you're not taking his advice (which is to go to therapy). Even though you say he is the only person you can imagine taking the advice from. This inconsistency tells me you may not admire Stef as much as you say you do. 

 

Lying to yourself effects self esteem because while you might not be consciously unaware of what is happening, part of you knows the truth. When someone lies to me, I have a really difficult time trusting them again. Their credibility is damaged, and I'm uncertain when they are really being honest. When this happens with the self, it's a terrible internal war. Repairing the damage requires apologies, amends, and restitution, which can only happen over time. 

 

On the other hand, if you are not lying to yourself, if you truly do admire Stef and trust his advice, then not taking action on his advice would also be a violation of integrity. Your ideas aren't matching up with your behavior. 

 

In either case, when your self esteem is damaged, it's that much easier to self attack, and that's what perpetuates the cycle and keeps you stuck. When you don't feel good about yourself it's even harder to take action, and when you don't take action you feel even worse about yourself.

 

By matching up your ideas and your behavior, increasing your integrity, you could break free from this cycle. At least, that's what worked for me. 

 

Good luck. 

[AccuTron]

"The alternative is to buy a pack of cigarettes and talk to people at an AA meeting or on the street,"

 

NO CIGARETTES!!!

You smoke to relax, knowing full well it's like sucking on plutonium laced flesh eating bacteria, which is NOT relaxing your insides.  Every suck is an internal lie, reinforced.

 

Instead, get some Cracker Jacks, assuming your teeth are up to it.  Gives ya' something to do, doesn't kill you, annnnndddd....you get a little prize, which can surely stir up more conversation, reading the inner meaning of a small plastic puzzle.  

 

--------------------------------------------

"I've heard that many cluster Bs are attracted to the profession to learn how people work to exploit them further. "

 

I know of a woman who has some kind of psychology degree, and she is one of the most manipulative and own-family destructive people I've ever met, I have no hesitation in calling her evil.  My sister is a psychologist in San Francisco, hotbed of critical and honest thinking  , and is pompous, impossible to reason with, and some other things I shouldn't think about.

 

The man I went to years back was excellent.  He had no agenda, was very healthy in his own mind, and cost real money, which I was pleased to (be able) pay, for his benefit.  His approach was to listen and ask questions, and listen more, and occasionally to steer me on a line of thinking.  This was before the internet was as much as it is, and before FDR.  Referencing Ferssitar's question #13, very much of that successful approach is exactly what is done here at FDR.

[kodama]

I have tried many times to follow a therapy with a therapist. EMDR, Primal, Psychoanalysis, Cognitive Behavioral, Gestalt...Even been to take Ayahuasca for 1 month, and I can totally understand why so much people don't want to go to see a shrink.

 

The way I use therapists : I take what I can, and for the rest, I am always very conscious and can detect all attempts of manipulation (which is a constant in this business). I use all the pain these manipulations trigger in me, and work in self therapy with it. 

 

After I could grive it, and I can still see the manipulation, but I don't feel anything painful, I am just lucid about it.

 

Now, I do all of it by myself, and it works for the best.

 

Journaling, talking, movements, reading, laying in the dark and feeling, crying, screaming, hitting cushions...

[Kevin Beal]

The way I use therapists : I take what I can, and for the rest, I am always very conscious and can detect all attempts of manipulation (which is a constant in this business).

What does "manipulation" mean in this context?

 

Depending on what you mean, this could be perfectly in line with ethics in psychotherapy and exactly what you want. A therapist wants to bypass people's defenses and not get caught up in a drama which is not going to serve the client. Emotional defenses exist to prevent reality from from being perceived directly, as it is. A therapist offering reality directly, as it is, may not be what will help the client most.

 

If they are taking advantage of their position in order to get something from the client at their expense, then that's different, but "manipulation" is a word that needs to be used sparingly.

 

One could argue that language itself is manipulative as word choice is used specifically to connote something in particular, when other words may be just as precise.

 

Tact and deception can take the same form, but have entirely different motives. Omitting certain details, using (un)favorable phrases, conveniently timed praise/criticism, and a lot of other social skills can be used to help or hurt. People who've been burned too many times may well mistake tact for deception and miss opportunities for connection.

 

But if what you're doing now works well for you, then great! I'm happy

[kodama]

What does "manipulation" mean in this context?

 

 

When the therapist is not healed himself (and in France, it is a constant), he's just trying to get something from you, as every person in a narcisistic process tries to do in all his relationships.

 

I will give you some examples :

• He talks to me about his life, and he lasts, lasts...and then I have to cut him in order to talk about me (I pay for this), he looks quite angry, listen to me a bit, and then goes on with his own story saying quite exasperated : "As I was saying before......."
• She says "I cannot promise that this therapy will bring all the memories you have lost". I answer "Okay, I take the responsability of trying", then she goes on "But I cannot promise that you will find the memory you searching for". So I say "Yeah, I got it, Iet's just try". And she says this 5 times. At the end, I'm like : "Stop being afraid taht I will reproach you to waste my money, I will pay to TRY, ok?" then she answers : "Ok, I get it. But let's be clear that I cannot promise..." Fuck...
• He insists on saying "tu" when I feel more respected with "vous" (in french, it is common when you don't know someone, and we are two adults to say "vous" for respect). To explain, it is commonly used by boss or teacher who wants to show his power to say "tu" to the employee or student, while you must say "vous" to him. When I insist with the "vous", he says "ok...if you like, we say "vous" " (like if I was insane) and the each time he talks to me he says "tu...sorry..vous...I will never get used to it, as you know that every other patients accept the "tu".
• I want to talk about my relationship with my mother, he cuts me and says "I don't want to talk about you mother today, we will talk about your father" (It's the second time I see him)
• I tell her that I know some therapy books, and she says "You know my job better then me, allright, allright !"
• I cry, and he says "Stop crying now, enough"

 

And I can tell more, more...and each example is taken from different therapists, 

[kodama]

Actually this is quite funny, cause just under this thread appears a post from Darius, and as I agree with all what it says in it : https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/47116-qa-is-therapy-working-for-me-article/, it can answer to you far better than I do myself.

[Kevin Beal]

When the therapist is not healed himself (and in France, it is a constant), he's just trying to get something from you, as every person in a narcisistic process tries to do in all his relationships.

There is no such thing as perfect mental health, just as there isn't with physical health. And it's often a matter of degree; a person can be mentally very healthy in one area and less healthy in another. My own therapist didn't give women as much personal responsibility as she did men, but she killed it at other things, like dream analysis.

 

Darius' article is a good one and worth checking out, but it's not any kind of refutation. I bet he'd agree with the OP about the excuses and importance of therapy. He is a therapist, after all.

 

I agree that most therapists aren't good, but neither are most dates you could go on, or most jobs you could interview for. I didn't look at all the potential dates out there and tell myself that I should stop looking, just because the ladies I interacted with (at the time) were not good matches for me. In fact, dating any of the women around me, at particular times in my life, would have made me very unhappy. As with therapy, I'm super grateful to myself that I stuck it out and kept looking, because I had a hugely transformative therapy experience, and met the most amazing woman.

 

There is an attitude that I've seen over and over again with people, especially where it concerns therapy, where they miss the forest for the trees, and they focus on a relatively unimportant aspect of a relationship, or one that could easily get resolved, and declare that the other person cannot be trusted, prematurely.

 

I don't know the context, but some of the examples you gave seemed very strange, and it's likely they were some of the bad ones. I didn't understand the pronoun thing, but that's probably just a cultural difference. There are very common french interactions which seem very rude to me.

[DaVinci]

If you're doing therapy with a psychotherapist responsibly, you are also doing self therapy. It should be very self directed. You can't be passive in therapy just because they are the therapist and you are the client.

 

If you are totally competent being your own therapist, then you don't need to hire a trained therapist. A therapist should be teaching you the skills to become your own therapist, gain knowledge about yourself, learn how to take control of your life, etc.

 

If you aren't competent at being your own therapist, the best place to learn how to get there is under the guidance of a professional. You may be able to learn without one, but I've seen people try and I don't think they get what they are in for. It's a hell of a lot harder than it looks.

 

Are you learning to be your own therapist? How's it going? How do you know how well it's going? Do you not feel lost and aimless?

 

Those are some good questions. I think the aim of therapy is to make your therapist not needed, or at least not needed at nearly the frequency that they were. 

 

As far as knowing how well self therapy is going, that can be hard to determine early on, but I think the more time you spend on it, the better you will become, even if the process is slower than paying a therapist to help you through it and guide you away from areas that might not help.

 

There is more fumbling around and unbroken barriers in the beginning for sure, and I think not fumbling through self therapy as much as you used to is a good indicator of at least being on the right track. I think you begin to know when you've broken down your own walls. I don't know how to describe it better than that.

[Tyne]

My husband and I have put off getting some much needed therapy. My husband mainly uses the excuse that we just can't afford it. My fear is of what I don't yet know or understand about therapy and what a good therapist is supposed to look like. You mentioned that it would be simple to figure out if a therapist would be right for you by asking the right questions. What would be some good questions to ask? What are some red flags?

[Kevin Beal]

You mentioned that it would be simple to figure out if a therapist would be right for you by asking the right questions. What would be some good questions to ask? What are some red flags?

Here are some thoughts that I had, if you're interested.

[Aaron727]

I think this video fits here in this thread. 

[Brad Sherard]

I think this video fits here in this thread.

Fascinating vid. Thanks for putting it up. Its fun to see how the psychology profession applies its own tools reflectively. I also enjoy seeing how those with a measure of self-knowledge behave(even knowing that self-knowledge is something one can obtain is a form of self-knowledge so even the incorrect psychologists are informative in this regard).

[Aaron727]

Glad you liked it. If you want check out some other videos on that guys channel. He has a bunch of interesting stuff.