Parent to child: you aren't my friend if you don't.....

[regevdl]

This is just sharing some recent reflections from some experiences over the past year or so...  of course any feedback is welcome.  

 

I have been using Peaceful Parenting with my children from day one.  I didn't know there was a name for it.  They were both born at home so I was already in the 'alternative parenting/birthing' circles to pick up on some of this stuff.  But my children are being raised with the standard of friendship that includes choose friends by virtue...not necessarily proximity.  This has been EXTREMELY challenging as we anyway live in a very small remote village so..... you kind of make due with what you have.  But I try to make every experience a learning lesson as naturally they will bond with their peers due to proximity.  But we have friends elsewhere, chosen by standards of virtue and their parenting etc.  

 

I often hear parents or even daycare caregivers ( I used to work in the daycare) say to the kids who aren't abiding by the demands of the moment, "oh.....well you aren't my friend anymore if you don't....."  or "well I'm not going to be your friend anymore if you don't...."  I was floored.  I didn't call it out explicity to the caregiver, rather offered a substitute that has proven effective to me when interacting with the children.  So they repeated the desired behavior towards the child to achieve the desired result from the child but without the 'why'....if that makes sense.  Like, they didn't have context as to why this approach is not only effective by WHY it's essential NOT to do the other approach which may prove 'successful' in the moment from time to time.  Emotional manipulation.

 

My kids are (almost 7 almost 9) and I noticed a few of the kids would use this on my kids if my kids didn't bend to every whim of their peer.  My kids are raised to not budge to peer pressure simply because of these manipulation tactics but...they are 7 and 9 afterall and it will happen as the pressure is too much to bear for that age and I don't blame them for caving from time to time.  Just try to arm them with more ammo so-to-speak.  

 

But the major problem is it is SOUL crushing to my kids to hear this from certain peers who they do consider to be their friends. They have come home completely devistated to hear this ridiculous sentence from their 'friend'.  

 

We have had many talks about this together.  I confronted one of the peers and their parents directly.  The parents could care less so since then, I confronted the daughter directly.  I explained she is either a friend of my daughter or she isn't.  It cannot be conditional on whether my daughter does what she (the girl) wants or not.  The daugher listened and it turned more into a 'lecture' but that is how this girl is raised...only with hitting and yelling so I kept calm but assertive to give her a differnt example of how to settle disagreements.  

 

Since then, that particular issue of 'you aren't my friend unless you...' has been put to rest but the girl uses other manipulation tactics.  It's a challenge since I try to simply show examples of this to my daughter without giving her the conclusion.  She is still young...my son is starting to get it more easily now being almost 9 and we revisit this topic often.  So I will continue with my daughter and hope she will naturally grow apart from this girl. 

 

I noticed that when my daughter plays with the children who use this manipulation (and others) she always comes home crying.  I tell her it breaks my heart to see her cry after playing with friends and I am sure and can see her heart is broken.  She always agrees but a few days later wants to play with them again.  Sometimes I allow it and sometimes we recount the prior experience and choose a more positive alternative as there are 3 other friends that she consistantly has a 100% positive experience with.  I sort of see it as a 'dance with the devil' for my daughter in her desire to occassionally want to interact with the manipulators.  

 

I never want to tell her NOT to be friends, as a demand, but I make my case as to why it's not the most productive and pleasant experience for her and of course when she returns home, for me and the family who see our loved on so hurt and heartbroken.  Because she is the younger of our two kids.... it's taking her time to absorb this.  Her view...as with my son at that age and many other kids that age is they want to be friends with EVERYONE.  and it's so innocent and true!  So I try not to enforce it and try to give alternatives and explainations whenever I feel uneasy.  I have had discussions with some of the other parents about this and tell them what their children say f and how it affects my daughter so terribly.  They don't take it as serious as they should so I just find ways to avoid them interacting whenever humanly possible.  

 

When children play at my house, I observe and stay in 'orbit' but let them play but always am aware when things escalate or provocation is attempted and I step in .  The other mom just likes the convenience of how nice and fun my daugher is, of course, and feel like they can be hands and ears/eyes off when she is at their house  but it's too much to bear for her.  She holds it all ine until she returns home and explodes. I have confronted the mother several times before I simply convinced my daughter to stop going there. 

 

I asked the mother that if my daughter is playing and they want to invite a particular peer that gives her problems, to at least call me or send my daughter home.  She agreed and complied a time or two and so I trusted her.  But later I found out (when my daughter came back distraught) that the mother broke her promise and didn't even confront me.  I confronted her and she sort of turned on me saying that it's the WORST thing to tell a child they cannot play with another child.  For her friendship is the most important thing...bla bla bla. 

 

I told her, for me too and I don't tell my daughter NOT to play with anyone. We discuss the experiences she has and preferences.  I explained to the mother that I don't want to control how she runs her house but I don't think it's much to ask to send my daughter home or call me when the other peer shows up and the children don't need to know a thing and it's not making a big scene.  

 

Anyway, not to get into every minor detail but this mother IS one who says to her kids in a pouty voice, "well i'm not your friend if you don't...." and I have confronted her and she blows it off like it's no big deal and even when her son says it to my daughter and it devistates her and I confront her she apologizes and says she will talk to him but I tell her.... but if you keep using this phrase on him.... talking to him not to say it won't change anything.  She doesn't really respond to that and gets 'pressed lip' and short with me...to no surprise. 

 

But today I was at a store, alone and saw a mother with her daughter and grandaugter who couldn't have been more than 3 years old and the grandmother told the young tot... 'no you say?  Well I can't be your friend anymore'.  And I almost collapsed.  My heart sank so deep  and the look on the young girl's face was crushing.  I thought...gee GRANDMA.....  what if in 18 years a boy says that to her when she refuses sexual advances towards her..... would her compliance make you satisfied then?  

 

Like it's shocking how people don't extrapolate these repurcussions of things they say so casually but consistantly and ...AND ....they don't even notice the look on the child's face.  Like it was a meaningly phrase and moment for the grandmother but the girl...barely 3 yrs DEFINITELY internalized that moment...you could tell on her face and I was a stranger 3rd party to the incident.  

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Threat of social ostracism to a child is as severe as hitting, and its incredibly sleazy. I don't think there is any distinction between physical abuse and manipulation that threatens ostracism, since both imply sociopathic coldness to take advantage of a child's complete helplessness in the situation.

 

It could be that your children are having difficulty staying away from these children, because if the realize the severity of what is being done to them, and the severity of what the parents are willing to do to their children, then it will be hard for them to reconcile why you would let them be in that situation in the first place. Giving kids a choice is important, but when there is a situation of abuse and manipulation, then we must protect children from that because as adults we know better. It is more difficult to change your tune on the issue afterwards, but I think that is because your children will have to accept quite a scary fact that they were around such people, and that they were not told the severity of the danger they were in. Children are made to conform, so if they knew the severity deep down, but you are not reflecting that back to them, I think they won't be capable of pointing it out on their own.

 

Also, if your children are around these people, if they do not defend themselves from the bullying and manipulation, they will be sitting ducks. It's like the rule Stefan has with his daughter; be nice to the nice, and mean to the mean. So if your children are nice in response to the other children's meanness, then it seems either you have to teach your children how to be mean back so the other child knows what it's like, or your children cannot be around these kids else they will be prey and they will be learning to subject themselves to bullying. Sorry if that sounds kind of crazy in teaching your children to be mean, and I don't think they should have to be around people who are mean, and it sounds like it could be dangerous to have that sort of conflict, but I think the worst scenario is for them to think they deserve to be bullied, or to think that a certain amount of bullying is acceptable in a friendship.

 

If you are assertive, but it is not changing the situation; i.e. the parents continue justifying the abuse, and the 'friends' keep up the abuse - then I think you have to point out these people for what they are for your children - mean, abusive, evil people who deserve to be treated the way they treat others. But if you're implying to the children that they can be friends with a bully, then you are sort of lying to them (not intentionally or anything). Once you make the case that a bully cannot actually be a friend, and that mean people should not be treated nicely because that is to make prey out of yourself, then at least your children will understand the situation better, and if you decide to step in and not allow them to see these children, it will have more credibility now that you've explained an error you made and apologized for it, and are stepping in to correct it.

 

Also, if you accept manipulation from the parents you are also modelling to expose yourself to abusive people and the kids will pick up on that too.

 

I'm really sorry about this situation, and I am so angry about these parents who chose to treat their children this way, even with your example of peaceful parenting in their face. You are very admirable with what you are doing, and I'm angry these idiots treated you with disrespect rather than learning from your fantastic example of what a great and considerate parent is.

[Tyr]

Threat of social ostracism to a child is as severe as hitting, and its incredibly sleazy. I don't think there is any distinction between physical abuse and manipulation that threatens ostracism, since both imply sociopathic coldness to take advantage of a child's complete helplessness in the situation.

 

It could be that your children are having difficulty staying away from these children, because if the realize the severity of what is being done to them, and the severity of what the parents are willing to do to their children, then it will be hard for them to reconcile why you would let them be in that situation in the first place. Giving kids a choice is important, but when there is a situation of abuse and manipulation, then we must protect children from that because as adults we know better. It is more difficult to change your tune on the issue afterwards, but I think that is because your children will have to accept quite a scary fact that they were around such people, and that they were not told the severity of the danger they were in. Children are made to conform, so if they knew the severity deep down, but you are not reflecting that back to them, I think they won't be capable of pointing it out on their own.

 

Also, if your children are around these people, if they do not defend themselves from the bullying and manipulation, they will be sitting ducks. It's like the rule Stefan has with his daughter; be nice to the nice, and mean to the mean. So if your children are nice in response to the other children's meanness, then it seems either you have to teach your children how to be mean back so the other child knows what it's like, or your children cannot be around these kids else they will be prey and they will be learning to subject themselves to bullying. Sorry if that sounds kind of crazy in teaching your children to be mean, and I don't think they should have to be around people who are mean, and it sounds like it could be dangerous to have that sort of conflict, but I think the worst scenario is for them to think they deserve to be bullied, or to think that a certain amount of bullying is acceptable in a friendship.

 

If you are assertive, but it is not changing the situation; i.e. the parents continue justifying the abuse, and the 'friends' keep up the abuse - then I think you have to point out these people for what they are for your children - mean, abusive, evil people who deserve to be treated the way they treat others. But if you're implying to the children that they can be friends with a bully, then you are sort of lying to them (not intentionally or anything). Once you make the case that a bully cannot actually be a friend, and that mean people should not be treated nicely because that is to make prey out of yourself, then at least your children will understand the situation better, and if you decide to step in and not allow them to see these children, it will have more credibility now that you've explained an error you made and apologized for it, and are stepping in to correct it.

 

Also, if you accept manipulation from the parents you are also modelling to expose yourself to abusive people and the kids will pick up on that too.

 

I'm really sorry about this situation, and I am so angry about these parents who chose to treat their children this way, even with your example of peaceful parenting in their face. You are very admirable with what you are doing, and I'm angry these idiots treated you with disrespect rather than learning from your fantastic example of what a great and considerate parent is.

 

Exactly. Social Ostracism means "I will leave you to die" to a child. It is the cruelest thing in the world you can do to any human being. If you've done any therapy like I have to remember how these things feel in the moment, I remember it literally feeling like "I"m going to die". It's the same level as what I feel when near miss avoiding car accidents or falling from a height, etc..

[Jaeger]

I remember hearing this in elementary school or a similar one "I will be your best friend if you..."  To me it is the stick and the carrot mentality to get what you want.  I don't understand how a mother or a day care worker would say such things to a child.  Why can't we as adults just practice what we preach.  You know say "Please" and "Thank You".  I find my kids respond a lot better if they feel they have free choice.

[neeeel]

 

 

If you are assertive, but it is not changing the situation; i.e. the parents continue justifying the abuse, and the 'friends' keep up the abuse - then I think you have to point out these people for what they are for your children - mean, abusive, evil people who deserve to be treated the way they treat others. But if you're implying to the children that they can be friends with a bully, then you are sort of lying to them (not intentionally or anything). Once you make the case that a bully cannot actually be a friend, and that mean people should not be treated nicely because that is to make prey out of yourself, then at least your children will understand the situation better, and if you decide to step in and not allow them to see these children, it will have more credibility now that you've explained an error you made and apologized for it, and are stepping in to correct it.

 

 

I dont think its a good idea to teach your children to be mean to anyone. I am not saying they have to be friends with them, they can just not play or socialise with them. But telling them to be mean back doesnt make sense. Its not self defence, in the way that fighting back against the initiation of physical violence is, because it doesnt counter or stop the attack ( I suppose it occasionally might, in that the abuser may be taken aback). Far better to teach them how to deal with such attacks and verbal abuse, to teach them not to believe or accept what the other person is saying as true, to teach them that they do not have to spend time with that person, or be friendly or nice to them. 

 

I suppose it depends on what you mean by teaching your child to "be mean"? I wouldnt class not being friends with them as being mean.

[Weeds]

If both you and your daughter have experienced no change in the other child and parent's behavior but your daughter insists on playing at their house, instead of confronting them about it (fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me).. Perhaps the next time your daughter comes home crying it would be best to formulate a plan to respond to those scenarios? For example, giving HER the responsibility of calling you or asking the mother to drive her home. If they are creating an environment where they strip your daughter of control, then give her the formula to influence the outcome in her favor (being with people who love her unconditionally). I would also suggest reiterating the plan each time before she goes to their house. And if she comes home crying again, ask her if she practiced what you both planned. If yes, let her know how brave she is and proud of her you are. If not, remind her of the plan for next time and how important it is that when they dont want to be her friend anymore that she find greener pastures. When her 'friends' find out that the tactic does not work, they will be less likely to use it.

 

Please share your future experiences/ how everything pans out! I hope you and your daughter are able to collaborate on a positive atmosphere for her to play in.

[Weeds]

I am also curious to know what your daughter thinks would help the situation?

[Kikker]

Besides from the advise given here I would like to add that your son won't be obviously crying when he experiences injustice so keep an eye out for that. Furthermore I like to add that your daughter probably can take a hit or two and she should learn as soon as she is able to understand that all her friends will use manipulative tactics to some extend and shouldn't mentally exaggerate the meaning of words like: "i don't want to be your friend anymore if...".