Bushrat Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) I have to say I was not a fan of this video..... here's why: 1. I think its a bit of a straw man argument, you constructed 'linguisite' is accurate on some ways but not entirely accurate. I think there was a place in society for people who were not able to hunt per se. There would have been many other activities scrawny men could engage in to contribute... even in a hunter/gatherer society. gathering, becoming a healer, crafting useful items etc. There definitely were items that could heal people, it was not all deception. many herbs and natural remedies are quite effective. 2.Nature is neither good nor bad. it is not abusing us as you say. The sun shines on the just and unjust. Ancient man lived in nature much easier than any of us could now. I worked in mining exploration for over 25 years... most of it in remote camps far from civilization. I loved it. One can make themselves quite comfortable in nature, even in the winter time. Some of the most incredible camps I was in were winter camps. Nature does not have any kind of personality or aim to destroy or hurt anyone. It just is. Perhaps some people tried to make sense of the arbitrary effects of nature.... similar effects took place in the beginning of modern warfare because death could occur randomly from artillery or random rifle shot even though you were a strong powerful man. Soldiers began to carry good luck charms, believe heavily in luck and destiny because death came not from any weakness but randomly. Indeed nature has a similar randomness, people without understanding in science at time created 'gods' to describe what they observed, but we have records that even anciently some people did not believe in the so called 'gods'. Violence has always been more prevalent from other humans to a larger degree than from nature. I believe this was what people were probably trying to understand... not nature. The priest class was probably trying to minimize violence and oppression between humans, not nature. 3. Indeed there was a strong priest class at many times in history up until now. However not all of these people were trying to 'fool' the people. Many were earnestly trying to help and to find peace in a world full of violence and hatred. History is full of honest loving people in the priest class who honestly tried to help people. There is goodness in helping and serving people, trying to heal the sick, comfort the sad and downtrodden. These are good activities and were the majority of the activities for the Christian priestly class in any time. They did not always have a perfect understanding of nature or God, but many did their best with what they knew. 4. Your mention of 'magical Mormon underwear' shows that you have a misconception of how us Mormons feel about our 'underwear'. We don't believe in magic, but believe that Heavenly Father will bless us in this world or the next by keeping his commandments. The 'underwear' will not stop bullets, or prevent illness, or be some kind of magical armour. It is an inward sign to ourselves and God of the covenants we have made to God to keep his commandments. We wear them to remind ourselves of these covenants. They are worn under our clothes so as to be humble and contrite in our commitments not ostentatious or showy of how we feel. 5.Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Ancient culture had many advancements at times... many of their engineering feats reveal to us of their intelligence. You would be good to remember that many of the early scholars making some excellent discoveries were priests or Christians whose discoveries only revealed more about God than disproved him. I have no problems with science, with evolution, with many of the scientific discoveries and theories that are prevalent today. Most of them only make me have more faith in God and understand him better. Indeed it did take time for mankind to discover better agricultural methods. Its not an indication that we abandoned religion to make those discoveries. 6. There are some people in society who want to have influence or power over others, there always have been, there always will be. Some indeed were attracted to the priest class, some to other areas such as military service or politics. But just because some were priests does not mean all the priestly class have been or are now interested in controlling others. I don't mean this only in an anecdotal fashion but overall. Many have been and still do strive to sincerely help others and bless those around them. We cannot nor should not throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because some of the Christians have tried to oppress others. There were many good people in history who were priests. 7. Many of the terrible practices of Christians were not the teachings of Jesus Christ. Christ taught that he did not bring peace into the world as the world knows it but peace of the soul. Proper disciples of Christ do not try to fool people to have power over them, they to bring peace to the persons life through inner peace and through spiritual peace. A knowledge of God should bring peace into ones life. We sometimes have a saying 'act as if everything depends upon you, and pray as if everything depends upon God'. This belief is not admonishing people to do nothing and abandon reason, but to do all that is in ones own power to help oneself. True Christianity is not abandoning reason, but using it as much as possible, as it always has been. Edited May 6, 2016 by Bushrat 2 2
NotDarkYet Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 All of that is nitpicking relative to the huge elephant in the room here. Namely: Is God real? Is Jesus the "son" of God? How can you know any of this? 1 1
Jaeger Posted May 5, 2016 Posted May 5, 2016 I have to say I was not a fan of this video..... here's why: 1. I think its a bit of a straw man argument, you constructed 'linguisite' is accurate on some ways but not entirely accurate. I think there was a place in society for people who were not able to hunt per se. There would have been many other activities scrawny men could engage in to contribute... even in a hunter/gatherer society. gathering, becoming a healer, crafting useful items etc. There definitely were items that could heal people, it was not all deception. many herbs and natural remedies are quite effective. 2.Nature is neither good nor bad. it is not abusing us as you say. The sun shines on the just and unjust. Ancient man lived in nature much easier than any of us could now. I worked in mining exploration for over 25 years... most if it in remote camps far from civilization. I loved it. One can make themselves quite comfortable in nature, even in the winter time. Some of the most incredible camps I was in were winter camps. Nature doe not have any kind of personality or aim to destroy or hurt anyone. It just is. Perhaps some people tried to make sense of the arbitrary effects of nature.... similar effects took place in the beginning of modern warfare because death could occur randomly from artillery or random rifle shot even though you were a strong powerful man. Soldiers began to carry good luck charms, believe heavily in luck and destiny because death came not from any weakness but randomly. Indeed nature has a similar randomness, people without understanding in science at time created 'gods' to describe what they observed, but we have records that even anciently some people did not believe in the so called 'gods'. Violence has always been more prevalent from other humans to a larger degree than from nature. I believe this was what people were probably trying to understand... not nature. The priest class was probably trying to minimize violence and oppression between humans, not nature. 3. Indeed there was a strong priest class at many times in history up until now. However not all of these people were trying to 'fool' the people. Many were earnestly trying to help and to find peace in a world full of violence and hatred. History is full of honest loving people in the priest class who honestly tried to help people. There is goodness in helping and serving people, trying to heal the sick, comfort the sad and downtrodden. These are good activities and were the majority of the activities for the Christian priestly class in any time. They did not always have a perfect understanding of nature or God, but many did their best with what they knew. 4. Your mention of 'magical Mormon underwear' shows that you have a misconception of how us Mormons feel about our 'underwear'. We don't believe in magic, but believe that Heavenly Father will bless us in this world or the next by keeping his commandments. The 'underwear' will not stop bullets, or prevent illness, or be some kind of magical armour. It is an inward sign to ourselves and God of the covenants we have made to God to keep his commandments. We wear them to remind ourselves of these covenants. They are worn under our clothes so as to be humble and contrite in our commitments not ostentatious or showy of how we feel. 5.Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Ancient culture had many advancements at times... many of their engineering feats reveal to us of their intelligence. You would be good to remember that many of the early scholars making some excellent discoveries were priests or Christians whose discoveries only revealed more about God than disproved him. I have no problems with science, with evolution, with many of the scientific discoveries and theories that are prevalent today. Most of them only make me have more faith in God and understand him better. Indeed it did take time for mankind to discover better agricultural methods. Its not an indication that we abandoned religion to make those discoveries. 6. There are some people in society who want to have influence or power over others, there always have been, there always will be. Some indeed were attracted to the priest class, some to other areas such as military service or politics. But just because some were priests does not mean all the priestly class have been or are now interested in controlling others. I don't mean this only in an anecdotal fashion but overall. Many have been and still do strive to sincerely help others and bless those around them. We cannot nor should not throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because some of the Christians have tried to oppress others. There were many good people in history who were priests. 7. Many of the terrible practices of Christians were not the teachings of Jesus Christ. Christ taught that he did not bring peace into the world as the world knows it but peace of the soul. Proper disciples of Christ do not try to fool people to have power over them, they to bring peace to the persons life through inner peace and through spiritual peace. A knowledge of God should bring peace into ones life. We sometimes have a saying 'act as if everything depends upon you, and pray as if everything depends upon God'. This belief is not admonishing people to do nothing and abandon reason, but to do all that is in ones own power to help oneself. True Christianity is not abandoning reason, but using it as much as possible, as it always has been. Hi Bushrat. I would consider what Stefan was talking about the parasite class or priest class as people practicing priestcraft as defined in the Book of Mormon. For an example of Priestcraft see Alma 1:2-6 2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength. 3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people. 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. 5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money. 6 And he began to be lifted up in the pride of his heart, and to wear very costly apparel, yea, and even began to establish a church after the manner of his preaching. While those who hold the priesthood are to provide for themselves with honest work and not be paid for teaching the word of God. See Alma 1:26-27 26 And when the priests left their labor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength. 27 And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely. All of that is nitpicking relative to the huge elephant in the room here. Namely: Is God real? Is Jesus the "son" of God? How can you know any of this? That is the question everyone asks, even us believers. To be honest I don't know. I cant prove empirically if God exists, I only have my gut feeling and that's not any proof. I believe these are questions every man must find out for himself. Now if a man tells you he is God's priest and wants you to pay him money in order to hear his word then run.
NotDarkYet Posted May 5, 2016 Posted May 5, 2016 Is a gut-feeling a sufficient foundations for a belief system? If yes, then why bother trying to correct Stef. If no, then why don't you go after the Christians (or Statists, etc) , who have far more inconsistencies in their apologetics?
Jaeger Posted May 5, 2016 Posted May 5, 2016 Is a gut-feeling a sufficient foundations for a belief system? As far as my personal beliefs I'm drawn to Mormonism by more than just a gut feeling. Even If I come to the conclusion that God does not exist I will still want to keep going to church. I have friends there so there is the social aspect. I actually like singing hymns talking about gospel subjects even if I question some of them. Perhaps this desire is all genetic and I'm just a moth drawn to a flame, I don't know but I'm willing to find out. If yes, then why bother trying to correct Stef. I was pointing out to Bushrat that Stefan's arguments about the parasitical class mirrors Mormon doctrine on priestcraft. I actually agree with Stefan on this subject. If no, then why don't you go after the Christians (or Statists, etc) , who have far more inconsistencies in their apologetics? I'm more than willing to do that. I'll even throw in a Mormon or two I just realized my response to Bushrat would not make sense to a non-Mormon. Priestcraft is preaching for money, fame, and without authority from God. It is consider a big sin in Mormonism. The priesthood in Mormonism is held by every man in the church and we believe it to be the authority to act in God's name but that it doesn't give you the right to rule over others or to be paid for any priesthood service.
Bushrat Posted May 6, 2016 Author Posted May 6, 2016 As far as my personal beliefs I'm drawn to Mormonism by more than just a gut feeling. Even If I come to the conclusion that God does not exist I will still want to keep going to church. I have friends there so there is the social aspect. I actually like singing hymns talking about gospel subjects even if I question some of them. Perhaps this desire is all genetic and I'm just a moth drawn to a flame, I don't know but I'm willing to find out. I was pointing out to Bushrat that Stefan's arguments about the parasitical class mirrors Mormon doctrine on priestcraft. I actually agree with Stefan on this subject. I'm more than willing to do that. I'll even throw in a Mormon or two I just realized my response to Bushrat would not make sense to a non-Mormon. Priestcraft is preaching for money, fame, and without authority from God. It is consider a big sin in Mormonism. The priesthood in Mormonism is held by every man in the church and we believe it to be the authority to act in God's name but that it doesn't give you the right to rule over others or to be paid for any priesthood service. These are great points, and I agree with them whole-heartedly . I agree about the insight pointed out about preistcraft. I do think that not everyone who went into the ministry then or now is decidedly and intentionally deceiving people for their own gain. Its not the case nor, and its probably not the case then. People who are trying to do good may not have all the truth or may have some part of the truth and try to do the best as they can. However, as Stef has pointed out there are some who use religion as means to oppress and exploit others. I guess I am not convinced that all or even most of those practicing religion as preists in the past were behaving with sinister motives.
Jaeger Posted May 7, 2016 Posted May 7, 2016 These are great points, and I agree with them whole-heartedly . I agree about the insight pointed out about preistcraft. I do think that not everyone who went into the ministry then or now is decidedly and intentionally deceiving people for their own gain. Its not the case nor, and its probably not the case then. People who are trying to do good may not have all the truth or may have some part of the truth and try to do the best as they can. However, as Stef has pointed out there are some who use religion as means to oppress and exploit others. I guess I am not convinced that all or even most of those practicing religion as preists in the past were behaving with sinister motives. Even if the minister's intentions are good they are still deceiving the people. True it is unintentional but still a deception. They may even believe the deception themselves. 1. They claim to speak for God when they don't. 2. They charge for something that was freely given by God, His word. 3. They put themselves in a false position of authority to "Spiritually" rule over their peers. Bottom line is that these false priests use coercion (Threat of Hell, damnation, wraith of God) to get their way. Coercion was never God's way of doing things. As Latter Day Saints and holders of his priesthood we have been exhorted not to use force. In fact the minute we do use coercion we lose our priesthood authority. See D&C 121:34-46 34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? 35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson— 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. 37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. 38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God. 39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. 40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen. 41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; 42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— 43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy; 44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death. 45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. 46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. In other words God wants us to live the N.A.P. Sorry to focus so much on just your one point (#3) in your original post. I agree with your other points.
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