Aaron727 Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 When the topic of immigration comes up everyone starts talking about Mexicans and Muslims but the highest numbers are Chinese, mostly woman coming over on a travel visa to have babies. Trump wants to build a wall but the Mexicans will go over and under it. There are already vast networks of tunnels along the border for drug smuggling. Trump also want to put a temporary ban on Muslims until they are vetted as if that is going to stop a terrorist from making an attack and as if the government is competent enough to vet people when it cant even keep drugs out of prison. Even if Trump's plan works he is not dealing with the biggest problem which is the Chinese. No matter how much government control you have people are going to continue to flock to the welfare state legally and illegally. The only thing that will fix immigration is a reduction of state power, abolishing welfare and government benefits to immigrants. No politician including trump will ever reduce state power because all the state can do is expand its power. Trump's plan is not even a band-aid . If Trump wanted to fix america he wouldn't be arguing for an expansion of state power. 1 8
dsayers Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 Me neither. But I can see the title. Trump is one person, so caring about what their position is on X, Y, and Z is a waste of time. Also, "immigration" is similarly worrying about what other people are doing, usually in the context of FORCED wealth distribution. So I'm guessing the topic will be one that avoids important questions by focusing on minutia.
Wuzzums Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 Trump doesn't care about immigration. The whole issue has to do with illegal immigration. 2
Donnadogsoth Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 Also, on Moslem immigration, the Chinese aren't known for their territorial aggression and cultural imperialism, are they? They're not beheading people and screaming about how they're going to breed with our women, are they? (I know there was that Mongolian thing a few years ago, but that seemed like a one-off.) 4
Cruiser Posted May 6, 2016 Posted May 6, 2016 "Trump wants to build a wall but the Mexicans will go over and under it. There are already vast networks of tunnels along the border for drug smuggling. Trump also want to put a temporary ban on Muslims until they are vetted as if that is going to stop a terrorist from making an attack and as if the government is competent enough to vet people when it cant even keep drugs out of prison Well the Hungarians constructed a fence along their borders which resulted in lowering illegal immigration to zero. http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/10/Hungary-Illegals-October.jpg 1
aviet Posted May 6, 2016 Posted May 6, 2016 Some interesting points from the OP and others.The Hungarian situation as raised by Cruiser is an interesting one. The deputy of Communist opposition leader in the UK, Jeremy Corbyn, has said in the future it will be impossible to control immigration. However, the Hungarian situation is a major contradiction. Though a small number are still getting into Hungary, those that are caught are not given the easy ride they will get in the UK, Germany and the US etc. But in all, the fence and patrols must have stopped 100,000s of people entering illegally.Enforcing borders is all a question of will. The points raised by the OP are all valid and its a question of whether Trump will be willing and able to use his strong will to reverse the establishment position of a very weak immigration policy. 1
Donnadogsoth Posted May 6, 2016 Posted May 6, 2016 Some interesting points from the OP and others. The Hungarian situation as raised by Cruiser is an interesting one. The deputy of Communist opposition leader in the UK, Jeremy Corbyn, has said in the future it will be impossible to control immigration. However, the Hungarian situation is a major contradiction. Though a small number are still getting into Hungary, those that are caught are not given the easy ride they will get in the UK, Germany and the US etc. But in all, the fence and patrols must have stopped 100,000s of people entering illegally. Enforcing borders is all a question of will. The points raised by the OP are all valid and its a question of whether Trump will be willing and able to use his strong will to reverse the establishment position of a very weak immigration policy. Are you saying that ending the flow of unwanted immigration into the US, or the West as a whole, comes down to a staring contest between our leaders and their cabinet or party members?
aviet Posted May 6, 2016 Posted May 6, 2016 Are you saying that ending the flow of unwanted immigration into the US, or the West as a whole, comes down to a staring contest between our leaders and their cabinet or party members? I'm not sure what you mean.
Donnadogsoth Posted May 6, 2016 Posted May 6, 2016 I'm not sure what you mean. Neither am I sure of what you mean when you use terms like "question of will" and "strong will".
aviet Posted May 7, 2016 Posted May 7, 2016 Neither am I sure of what you mean when you use terms like "question of will" and "strong will". I mean that unless someone has the will to enforce laws, then the laws are to some extent redundant. As an example, prostitution is illegal in many countries, but little effort is done to enforce the laws and its essentially tolerated. Though, if someone wanted to crack down on prostitution, it would be easy to find large numbers of people to arrest and chip away at the sex work industry. There is a similar situation with illegal immigration, where it is to a degree tolerated with unwillingness to deport, sanctuary cities etc. If someone came along and had the will to enforce immigration laws, it would not be difficult to enact large numbers of deportations and decrease the pull of trafficking and illegal entry.
Donnadogsoth Posted May 7, 2016 Posted May 7, 2016 Right, so the Leader somehow convinces his retinue that he means business when it comes to enforcing the Law. An arm-wrestling match or something. Maybe they play Twister. "I mean it! Rrrrr."
regevdl Posted May 8, 2016 Posted May 8, 2016 When the topic of immigration comes up everyone starts talking about Mexicans and Muslims but the highest numbers are Chinese, mostly woman coming over on a travel visa to have babies. Trump wants to build a wall but the Mexicans will go over and under it. There are already vast networks of tunnels along the border for drug smuggling. Trump also want to put a temporary ban on Muslims until they are vetted as if that is going to stop a terrorist from making an attack and as if the government is competent enough to vet people when it cant even keep drugs out of prison. Even if Trump's plan works he is not dealing with the biggest problem which is the Chinese. No matter how much government control you have people are going to continue to flock to the welfare state legally and illegally. The only thing that will fix immigration is a reduction of state power, abolishing welfare and government benefits to immigrants. No politician including trump will ever reduce state power because all the state can do is expand its power. Trump's plan is not even a band-aid . If Trump wanted to fix america he wouldn't be arguing for an expansion of state power. Trump addresses ILLEGAL immigration... not legal immigration. The Chinese immigrants are predominately legal and take FAR less welfare and fair higher in wages. And Illegal Immigration, the term, is a misnomer in that immigration is a word used for legal entry into a politcal state. Illegal is...well...illegal. So the two are contradictory. One who enters illegaly is not an immigrant thus the two words are used in politics to create emotional response and cognitive dissoance. Please read/listen to STeve Cammarota who is the leading researching in immigration studies and has testified to congress on immigration facts and then come back and use the 'Chinese Immigrant' argument I noticed a lot of the leftist media is now pushing this but they are once again, moving the conversation to legal immigration and not distinguishing it on the topic of ILLEGAL entry/immigration to which is Trump's main focus and justifiably so.
urtothink_yahoo_com Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 Well SOMEONE needs to stop this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCadmCi4avo&feature=youtu.be
dsayers Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 Well SOMEONE needs to stop this... What are YOU doing to stop it?
Aaron727 Posted May 9, 2016 Author Posted May 9, 2016 http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/04/01/china-usa-birth-tourists-business-strong/24887837/ from the article : "At least 500 companies offered "birth tourism" services in China last year, the Shanghai newspaper National Business Dailyreported. While there are no official statistics, the number of Chinese citizens heading to the USA to give birth likely is in the tens of thousands each year. The cost of a trip, including medical expenses, runs from $20,000 to $80,000 http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/05/01/china-passes-mexico-as-the-top-source-of-new-u-s-immigrants/from the article: "China was the country of origin for 147,000 recent U.S. immigrants in 2013, while Mexico sent just 125,000, according to a Census Bureau study by researcher Eric Jensen" http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/28/us-immigration-asians-to-surpass-hispanics-2065from the article: "the tipping point is expected to come in 2055, when Asians will become the largest immigrant group at 36%, compared with Hispanics at 34%. White immigrants to America, 80% back in 1965, will hover somewhere between 18% and 20% with black immigrants in the 8%-9% range, the study said." If you don't think a bunch of communists coming in to your country is a huge problem, maybe you should think about your position a little bit. As stated before trump does not address this and offers no real solutions for the Mexicans and the Muslims. 2
Hannibal Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 Trump also want to put a temporary ban on Muslims until they are vetted as if that is going to stop a terrorist from making an attack and as if the government is competent enough to vet people when it cant even keep drugs out of prison. Fewer muslims in the UK would reduce terror threats. Here they rule the prison gangs, and native prisoners convert to islam because the food is better. It's a breeding ground for a dangerous ideology in an environment full of people of lower intelligence and little to lose.
Aaron727 Posted May 10, 2016 Author Posted May 10, 2016 Fewer muslims in the UK would reduce terror threats. Here they rule the prison gangs, and native prisoners convert to islam because the food is better. It's a breeding ground for a dangerous ideology in an environment full of people of lower intelligence and little to lose. You're still operating under the assumption that the state can be controlled and shaped, that you can use its violent power for good. All that will happen is the government will spend your money telling you they will fix the problem and the problem will just get worse because every solution people in power propose is an expansion of state power. This is what happens every time and it wont be any different because trump isn't taking donations. It is clear by his polices he is arguing for an expansion of state power.
Donnadogsoth Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 You're still operating under the assumption that the state can be controlled and shaped, that you can use its violent power for good. All that will happen is the government will spend your money telling you they will fix the problem and the problem will just get worse because every solution people in power propose is an expansion of state power. This is what happens every time and it wont be any different because trump isn't taking donations. It is clear by his polices he is arguing for an expansion of state power. Nevertheless, government policies have worked in the past. The government has built bridges and dams, has it not? So why could it not stop undesirables from entering the country if it chose? You're going the other way on the pendulum by talking as if government policies always lead to zero good results, when that's obviously not true.
Aaron727 Posted May 11, 2016 Author Posted May 11, 2016 Roll the dice on state power and it comes up violence every time. What else do you need to know? If you want to support trump that fines just don't pretend like he is going to ride in on a white horse and make things better. No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dickyIs gonna mother hubbard soft soap meWith just a pocketful of hope edit: found the article I wanted https://www.transportation.gov/policy-initiatives/grow-america/road-and-bridge-data-statethe state doesn't seem to be doing well with roads and bridges.
urtothink_yahoo_com Posted May 26, 2016 Posted May 26, 2016 What are YOU doing to stop it? I'm cleaning my guns and buying AMMO!
Des Posted May 26, 2016 Posted May 26, 2016 I'm cleaning my guns and buying AMMO! Your mom didn't say "use your words, not your fists" (in between the times she spanked you) ?
shirgall Posted May 26, 2016 Posted May 26, 2016 Your mom didn't say "use your words, not your fists" (in between the times she spanked you) ? After Katrina and the very public disarming of the populace by the military in the aftermath, some may distrust the authorities should something new happen.
Des Posted May 26, 2016 Posted May 26, 2016 After Katrina and the very public disarming of the populace by the military in the aftermath, some may distrust the authorities should something new happen. What? no comment on the irony in advising words in between times of using force? Okay, occasional un-coordinated gun owners can't match a military force who - because of words - believe they are doing good by suppressing those un-coordinated gun owners, who, if they started to co-ordinate, would be reported to the military force, by people who - because of words - believe they should do so. I think I have just typed to you something you already grasp, just wanted to put it down clearly for those who may not have thought it through.
shirgall Posted May 26, 2016 Posted May 26, 2016 What? no comment on the irony in advising words in between times of using force? Okay, occasional un-coordinated gun owners can't match a military force who - because of words - believe they are doing good by suppressing those un-coordinated gun owners, who, if they started to co-ordinate, would be reported to the military force, by people who - because of words - believe they should do so. I think I have just typed to you something you already grasp, just wanted to put it down clearly for those who may not have thought it through. I don't find it that ironic. I use words wherever possible, but I have been unsuccessfully mugged, too. As they say, "speak softly but carry a big stick." I maintain healthy relationships with many people in law enforcement and the military and I gauge their willingness to follow orders that go "too far". Even if the general populace didn't notice the Katrina disarming videos, a lot of the people in the military and law enforcement did, and expressed shame and regret. I carry the hope that they will choose, but I know how ironic it is to hope for someone to be moral when they already enforce immoral laws.
yagami Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 When the topic of immigration comes up everyone starts talking about Mexicans and Muslims but the highest numbers are Chinese, mostly woman coming over on a travel visa to have babies. Trump wants to build a wall but the Mexicans will go over and under it. There are already vast networks of tunnels along the border for drug smuggling. Trump also want to put a temporary ban on Muslims until they are vetted as if that is going to stop a terrorist from making an attack and as if the government is competent enough to vet people when it cant even keep drugs out of prison. Even if Trump's plan works he is not dealing with the biggest problem which is the Chinese. No matter how much government control you have people are going to continue to flock to the welfare state legally and illegally. The only thing that will fix immigration is a reduction of state power, abolishing welfare and government benefits to immigrants. No politician including trump will ever reduce state power because all the state can do is expand its power. Trump's plan is not even a band-aid . If Trump wanted to fix america he wouldn't be arguing for an expansion of state power. I think we need a little humility here. You say the Mexicans will just go over and under the wall but that's assuming we dont take that into account. You can build walls deep into the ground and you can have sensors that can tell if there are things that look like people moving underground. Im no expert on wall building or immigration but to assume that it cant be done is the same argument people make about anarchy. You not being capable of coming up with a plan doesnt mean it cant be done. And of course Donald Trump focuses on the wall aspect of stopping illegal immigration because it's an easy concept for people to understand. If he started getting technical everyone's eyes would glaze over. You also have to define the word fix. What does fix mean? Do you mean stopping illegal immigration? Do you mean vastly reducing the amount of illegal immigration? Do you mean stopping all immigration? I dont see it as necessarily true that if you abolish welfare and government benefits you will stop any form of immigration. The problem isnt immigration and welfare it's open borders and welfare. If anyone for any reason can come in the country and they get paid to do nothing that's a huge problem. But immigration by itself doesnt have anything to do with that.
Aaron727 Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 I think we need a little humility here. You say the Mexicans will just go over and under the wall but that's assuming we dont take that into account. You can build walls deep into the ground and you can have sensors that can tell if there are things that look like people moving underground. Im no expert on wall building or immigration but to assume that it cant be done is the same argument people make about anarchy. You not being capable of coming up with a plan doesnt mean it cant be done. And of course Donald Trump focuses on the wall aspect of stopping illegal immigration because it's an easy concept for people to understand. If he started getting technical everyone's eyes would glaze over. You also have to define the word fix. What does fix mean? Do you mean stopping illegal immigration? Do you mean vastly reducing the amount of illegal immigration? Do you mean stopping all immigration? I dont see it as necessarily true that if you abolish welfare and government benefits you will stop any form of immigration. The problem isnt immigration and welfare it's open borders and welfare. If anyone for any reason can come in the country and they get paid to do nothing that's a huge problem. But immigration by itself doesnt have anything to do with that. Asking for humility when arguing for state power? I wanna say, check yourself before you wreck yourself. There is a deep rooted culture in mexico of smuggling people and property across the borders. What im saying is they already have infrastructure and expert tunnel builders. They can smuggle people in trucks and cars and planes and boats. The bigger you make the wall the more it will cost and you have no real way of knowing if it will reduce the numbers of illegals in significant ways. What were are sure of is that there will be more state power and corruption. You don't think those guards are going to be running scams, letting people across? Border guards will have a nice extra income but I don't really care about them. Not going to specifically address any of the obvious straw man in the quote.
TheAuger Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 Not going to specifically address any of the obvious straw man in the quote. Wait, what straw men?
TheAuger Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 Yes. Dude. Where are the straw men? Can you provide an example?
yagami Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 You are jumping around in your argument. I am responding to what you said about the effectiveness of building a wall. You seem to know for sure it wont work and im saying what you know about preventing illegal immigration is limited to what you can know as a civilian. So I stand by my humility statement. Also I am not making an argument for state power at all so please dont mischaracterize my point. You did not respond to any points I made at all. How can we have a discussion on the ideas if we are not directly responding to the points each person is making? The funny thing is if you know about an infrastructure of tunnels dont you think the government knows about it? And if it's known do you then think these tunnels are indectecable by any means? Do you honestly believe that in the 21 century we could not figure out where the tunnels are and fill them or prevent them from popping up? Or is it your belief that no matter what we do like moles in the ground there is nothing we can do to prevent new tunnels from popping up? If you are that much of an expert on this issue please explain how illegal immigration would get around inferred detention underground. That's only my amateur solution im sure much smarter and more knowledgeable people can come up with better solution. Also what do you mean straw man? Where?
Aaron727 Posted May 28, 2016 Author Posted May 28, 2016 I'm telling you that the government cant keep drugs out of prison. I'm saying you have no proof trumps solution will work and you have no proof that he will keep his promises. I'm pointing out that historically government programs fail. Im pointing out that its plain to any reader you are arguing for an expansion of state power. Im pointing out that you can not prevent corruption. You haven't said anything that challenges this. The history of government proves my case. Explain to me how building a wall is not an expansion of state power? Do you have any reason to support trumps position other than hope and faith? I don't like to respond to things that have nothing to do with what im talking about. "I dont see it as necessarily true that if you abolish welfare and government benefits you will stop any form of immigration" did I make this case somewhere in the thread??
yagami Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Alright lets go point by point. * Please point out where I claimed to have proof that Donald Trump's plan will work. How could any reasonable person make such a claim? The same goes for his promises. * Of course government programs historically fail on that we agree and I have never disagreed with that point if you believe I have please point out where I have said a past government program has not failed. * Again please point out my statement where I am arguing for more state power. You are just throwing these words at me with no proof. Show me the evidence not what you think you gathered from what I've said. * I believe the statement you cant prevent corruption is completely false and here is my argument. I will assume you are an anarchist so you should be familiar with the concept of getting money out of politics. You should also be aware that by reducing government power you also prevent corruption propositional to the amount of power reduced. Now if you are making the argument that you can not completely and totally prevent corruption you may have a point but im just responding to what you actually posted. But since most people dont use the term that way I would like to think my assessment is correct. If im wrong and you meant totally and complete prevention just correct me in your response. And if that is the case I'll just go ahead and respond and say that that is a near impossible standard to have and perfection in my opinion is not at this stage what we should be aiming for. Lets do as much good as we can right now and smooth out the edges later. * We both agree that power corrupts but that has nothing to do with my response to you. Pointing out something like that doesnt move the conversation forward at all. Im not going to challenge something I agree with. History does prove your case so there is no point in staying on this corruption bit of your argument. * I have never said building a wall is not an expansion of state power. * I do have reason to support trumps position. I believe Trump will build a wall and it will help to prevent illegal immigration. Of course I am no expert on building walls or preventing illegal immigration. I only know so much. But what I do know is that right now what we are doing is not preventing much of anything. We all have the metaphorical gun to our head and what im saying is if I had to choose i'd choose building a wall over what we currently have. I would love to have no government at all of course but we dont have that choice in prison. I am also not saying that everyone should go out and vote/advocate for Trump. We are just talking about that validity of the arguments here. If Trump builds a wall how effective would that be. Not whether it is right or wrong to build a wall. That's a totally different conversation. * I think this is where you believe I am advocating for state power. If someone ask me should the speed limit be 120mph or 30mph in a residential neighborhood I dont know much about speed limits and what would be optimal but given the choices I would choose 30pmh. Maybe even that isnt a good number but I am just leveraging my currently knowledge to decide what I think would be best. Picking a number has no baring on the morality of a state run speed limit system. * No matter how much government control you have people are going to continue to flock to the welfare state legally and illegally. The only thing that will fix immigration is a reduction of state power, abolishing welfare and government benefits to immigrants. Now I believe I have sufficiently responded to your points. You have ignored many of my points from my last post and I hope you dont do that same here. Let's hear your argument.
TheAuger Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Explain to me how building a wall is not an expansion of state power? Do you have any reason to support trumps position other than hope and faith? We need to be able to discreetly separate the policies of government, and then be able to look at overall the effects of those policies on the aggregate power of the State. So, yes, if Trump is elected and builds his wall, the amount of State power and resources in the area of border security will increase. However, that doesn't mean that the overall power of the State will also increase. Why? Well, fewer illegals getting free stuff from the Welfare State means less violence and theft against We, The Tax Chattel. In the aggregate, State power is lessened with a stronger border. Though the State itself, I believe, is illegitimate, the legal function of the State to secure the borders of a country is been, historically, the prime (and I believe a legitimate) concern of the State. In other words, if a society is going to have a state, then it's first priority (and really only priority) ought to be defense of borders. Even a free society will have borders, at least initially, because neighboring countries with governments will have defined borders. I'm still curious about the straw men you detected in one of yagami's post. Example? It seems to me, rather, that the straw man shoe is on the other foot. I don't ever recall reading yagami just claiming he believes the wall will work just because of "faith and hope" -- he's given you actual reasons. This is a demonstrable straw man fallacy you've made.
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