Trump is wrong on immigration

[Aaron727]

* Please point out where I claimed to have proof that Donald Trump's plan will work. How could any reasonable person make such a claim? The same goes for his promises.

 

Yes, I was just pointing this out, I didn't say you claimed to have proof.

 

* Of course government programs historically fail on that we agree and I have never disagreed with that point if you believe I have please point out where I have said a past government program has not failed.

 "You say the Mexicans will just go over and under the wall but that's assuming we dont take that into account. You can build walls deep into the ground and you can have sensors that can tell if there are things that look like people moving underground."

In this quote when you say "we" I understand that to mean that you support building a wall. If you support building a wall I would assume that you also think government programs don't historically fail. Why would you argue something that you believe historically fails?

 

* Again please point out my statement where I am arguing for more state power. You are just throwing these words at me with no proof. Show me the evidence not what you think you gathered from what I've said.

 

 You're  arguing in favor of trumps position, The wall itself is just another government program that will need massive amounts of money to build and maintain. There is no real wall on the border right now so  if you want to do that you would need to use sate power and  whenever you use state power the state grows. New government jobs and bureaucracy will be created.

 

* I believe the statement you cant prevent corruption is completely false and here is my argument. I will assume you are an anarchist so you should be familiar with the concept of getting money out of politics. You should also be aware that by reducing government power you also prevent corruption propositional to the amount of power reduced. Now if you are making the argument that you can not completely and totally prevent corruption you may have a point but im just responding to what you actually posted. But since most people dont use the term that way I would like to think my assessment is correct. If im wrong and you meant totally and complete prevention just correct me in your response. And if that is the case I'll just go ahead and respond and say that that is a near impossible standard to have and perfection in my opinion is not at this stage what we should be aiming for. Lets do as much good as we can right now and smooth out the edges later.

 

All you can say for certain is if trump does what he says concerning immigration there will be an expansion of state power. Will trump expand and reduce the power of the state overall, you have no clue. In terms of the topic of the thread it is certain he will expand state power based on his own stated policy. 

 

* We both agree that power corrupts but that has nothing to do with my response to you. Pointing out something like that doesnt move the conversation forward at all. Im not going to challenge something I agree with. History does prove your case so there is no point in staying on this corruption bit of your argument. 

 

I'm pointing this out because you're arguing for  a policy that will increase corruption of the border.  The better the wall, the more the guards can charge for crossing. Historically the more control the more corruption.

 

* I have never said building a wall is not an expansion of state power.

 

i dont really understand this point at all. Your're arguing for a wall then saying your not arguing for an expansion of state power and then you say you u do think a wall is an expansion of state power? seriously what? I dont get it.

 

 

* I do have reason to support trumps position. I believe Trump will build a wall and it will help to prevent illegal immigration. Of course I am no expert on building walls or preventing illegal immigration. I only know so much. But what I do know is that right now what we are doing is not preventing much of anything. We all have the metaphorical gun to our head and what im saying is if I had to choose i'd choose building a wall over what we currently have. I would love to have no government at all of course but we dont have that choice in prison. I am also not saying that everyone should go out and vote/advocate for Trump. We are just talking about that validity of the arguments here. If Trump builds a wall how effective would that be. Not whether it is right or wrong to build a wall. That's a totally different conversation.

 

There are no arguments in this section of your post. Its just you talking about your subjective beliefs. So again I will point out by supporting trump's immigration policies you are willing to gamble on state power with nothing but hope and faith.

 

* I think this is where you believe I am advocating for state power. If someone ask me should the speed limit be 120mph or 30mph in a residential neighborhood I dont know much about speed limits and what would be optimal but given the choices I would choose 30pmh. Maybe even that isnt a good number but I am just leveraging my currently knowledge to decide what I think would be best. Picking a number has no baring on the morality of a state run speed limit system.

 

 I'm simply pointing out you're  arguing for state power and then pointing out how the state has done historically and I haven't brought up morality once. 

 

 

the last thing where you quote me talking about reducing state power to fix immigration is not that same as what you said "I dont see it as necessarily true that if you abolish welfare and government benefits you will stop any form of immigration" never talked about stopping ANY form of immigration 

[yagami]

Yes I am arguing for Trumps position and yes it may expand government power but so what? I get that government programs fail I get that government programs get corrupted but SO WHAT? I dont think you understand how irrelevant that is. I am not advocating for a moral solution nor am I arguing for the best solution. Im arguing for the solution that looks best to me. As I stated in the beginning I am no expert and I only know so much. But to me the wall seems like a step in the right direction. Who cares if it fails I am in prison just like you and I just want things to get better. It's like you have a society that is getting sick from a disease and we need to do something about it. I dont know the right solution and maybe historically every government solution has failed in the past but so what? People are dying as we need to try something. Normally I wouldnt say that for every problem in society. I wouldnt say the government should really do something about pollution problem because things are getting bad. But this problem in particular is a society destroying problem that is not fixed will lead to neither of us having the luxury to type on these forums. I believe this is our best shot to make a positive change. It may fail but what choice do we have? If it fails for all those reasons you pointed out goodbye western values forever.

[Aaron727]

Right so for as long as you engage me I'm going to just sit here and keep pointing out that you're arguing to gamble on state power based on nothing but hope and faith.  Its just hard for me to believe you are ok with that.

 

Do whatever you want man, I just want to make sure you truly know what you're doing. The first thing you said to me was asking for humility, maybe you shouldn't gamble on something you claim to have very little knowledge on. Maybe you should be humble. 

 

 

If you were to vote for trump and he makes problems worse, are you going to take any responsibility for that? or do you just wash your hands and everything is fine?

[Slavik]

There is a major difference between monitoring border and opening the flood gates.  Many countries including Mexico and middle eastern states, control and monitor their borders.  You have put forth a false dichotomy, it is not a choice between perfectly plugging the border hole and any other illegal means, it is the choice between Trump wanting to at least do something about illegal immigration, and Democrats wanting to open the doors wide open. 

 

Of course Im speaking from the point of view of what is presented, as I support an anarchist solution (no more state=no more welfare = private property and no more forcing anyone to pay for immigrants = only the well meaning would immigrate.

[Aaron727]

There is a major difference between monitoring border and opening the flood gates.  Many countries including Mexico and middle eastern states, control and monitor their borders.  You have put forth a false dichotomy, it is not a choice between perfectly plugging the border hole and any other illegal means, it is the choice between Trump wanting to at least do something about illegal immigration, and Democrats wanting to open the doors wide open. 

 

Maybe if trump was arguing to make a border like south Korea and put up land mines and machine gun posts you might actually stop people but why would you further the ends of the state by giving it that much power when there are other solutions? What trump is talking about with his wall is retarded, even a huge supporter like alex jones thinks the wall is a bad idea and has gone so far as to speculate that it is just rhetoric for strong borders. 

 

"it is the choice between Trump wanting to at least do something about illegal immigration, and Democrats wanting to open the doors wide open. "

 

what you mean to say is you hope based on subjective beliefs trumps wants to do something.

 

I think you are putting forth the false dichotomy. There is a third choice. Voting is an effortless expression. Turn the tide, join the real fight and slay the tyrants in your personal life. Stop being domesticated garbage, stop being weak. 

[TheAuger]

 There is a third choice. Voting is an effortless expression. Turn the tide, join the real fight and slay the tyrants in your personal life. Stop being domesticated garbage, stop being weak. 

 

So the third choice is "turn the tide"(whatever that means) and start killing people?

[Donnadogsoth]

So the third choice is "turn the tide"(whatever that means) and start killing people?

 

I think he's being metaphorical.  Unfortunately I don't understand what he metaphorically really means.

[Aaron727]

lol come on guys, I mean bring arguments of peace to the world. Attack the people in your life that want to control you. Attack the people who advocate using violence on the innocent. Fight everyone that would have you enslaved; family, friends, teachers, coworkers, managers, supervisors, people at parties. Never be silent. Take action and educate the people in your life about real solutions.  No excuses. No cowardice.

 

 

There is no easy way out. What you do by going with the flow will be an effortless expression. When I say turn the tide, I mean speak out against popular opinion.

[Donnadogsoth]

lol come on guys, I mean bring arguments of peace to the world. Attack the people in your life that want to control you. Attack the people who advocate using violence on the innocent. Fight everyone that would have you enslaved; family, friends, teachers, coworkers, managers, supervisors, people at parties. Never be silent. Take action and educate the people in your life about real solutions.  No excuses. No cowardice.

 

 

There is no easy way out. What you do by going with the flow will be an effortless expression. When I say turn the tide, I mean speak out against popular opinion.

 

It's good that you explained yourself better.  Thank you.

 

Yet to pursue your ideal of contesting all evil, at all times, one had better find allies, friends, and spouses to refresh and encourage oneself.  The loner is at risk of burning out if he spends his life in endless disputation.  It may sharpen his rhetorical skill but it can also drain his soul.

[TheAuger]

I think he's being metaphorical.  Unfortunately I don't understand what he metaphorically really means.

 

Evidently, you didn't read Aaron's post that I cited...I literally just quoted his post...

[Aaron727]

It's good that you explained yourself better.  Thank you.

 

Yet to pursue your ideal of contesting all evil, at all times, one had better find allies, friends, and spouses to refresh and encourage oneself.  The loner is at risk of burning out if he spends his life in endless disputation.  It may sharpen his rhetorical skill but it can also drain his soul.

 

What i'm saying is wherever you hear or see evil, act. Its not every second of every day. Seems to me like you're putting forward a lot of excuses. If you truly care about my well-being then rally to this cause.

[TheAuger]

lol come on guys, I mean bring arguments of peace to the world. Attack the people in your life that want to control you. Attack the people who advocate using violence on the innocent. Fight everyone that would have you enslaved; family, friends, teachers, coworkers, managers, supervisors, people at parties. Never be silent. Take action and educate the people in your life about real solutions.  No excuses. No cowardice.

 

 

There is no easy way out. What you do by going with the flow will be an effortless expression. When I say turn the tide, I mean speak out against popular opinion.

 

Arguments of peace...?  Attack people who want to control you...who advocate violence...enslaving people...blahblahblah?  

 

What does any of this have to do with Trump's stance on immigration?

[Aaron727]

Great question auger. You are enslaved because the government uses violence to steal your money in the form of taxation. The government takes that money and creates welfare and other government programs which drives a huge amount of the immigration to the country. The government then proposes to use more money, power and violence to build a wall and prevent people from coming in. A lot of these people are only really in america because the government is giving them your stolen money.

[Slavik]

Maybe if trump was arguing to make a border like south Korea and put up land mines and machine gun posts you might actually stop people but why would you further the ends of the state by giving it that much power when there are other solutions? What trump is talking about with his wall is retarded, even a huge supporter like alex jones thinks the wall is a bad idea and has gone so far as to speculate that it is just rhetoric for strong borders. 

 

"it is the choice between Trump wanting to at least do something about illegal immigration, and Democrats wanting to open the doors wide open. "

 

what you mean to say is you hope based on subjective beliefs trumps wants to do something.

 

I think you are putting forth the false dichotomy. There is a third choice. Voting is an effortless expression. Turn the tide, join the real fight and slay the tyrants in your personal life. Stop being domesticated garbage, stop being weak. 

I guess since we are asking questions, I will go back to my Objectivist roots and ask you a follow up.  Why would you allow open flood gates?

 

Im not really sure what you are proposing?  You came in with a false dichotomy, no one here is arguing with you about Anarchy, we all agree on non-state or no rulers solution.  You said Trump is wrong on immigration, I dont see how he is wrong if you take in consideration a simple fact that Trump is looking at it from a Statist perspective.  "Ask a surgeon what the problem is, and he is going to advocate surgery."  The surgeon is not necessarily wrong, his approach is different and from a different perspective.

[TheAuger]

Great question auger. You are enslaved because the government uses violence to steal your money in the form of taxation. The government takes that money and creates welfare and other government programs which drives a huge amount of the immigration to the country. The government then proposes to use more money, power and violence to build a wall and prevent people from coming in. A lot of these people are only really in america because the government is giving them your stolen money.

 

Y'know, I already addressed all of these points in my second post on this thread.

[Aaron727]

Why would you allow open flood gates?

 

I never heard an anarchists make the case that by not voting you are allowing the government to do things.  Can you objectively prove this?

 

Im not really sure what you are proposing?  You came in with a false dichotomy

 

Again the only false dichotomy is you arguing that there are only two choices.

 

no one here is arguing with you about Anarchy, we all agree on non-state or no rulers solution.

 

No one I have spoken to in this thread is arguing for non state solutions. You guys have been giving me a whole lot of subjective beliefs about statist solutions so heres mine: I don't "believe" that in general  anarchists who are truly fighting everyday in their personal for a free world would be so quick to gamble on state power. If you were bringing arguments of peace into the world you would be confident and secure that you are making the best use of your time to free humanity. Maybe that's why you're willing to abandon reason and take the easy way out, you want donald trump to fix your problems because you're not brave enough to have uncomfortable conversations.

 

 

I dont see how he is wrong if you take in consideration a simple fact that Trump is looking at it from a Statist perspective.  "Ask a surgeon what the problem is, and he is going to advocate surgery."  The surgeon is not necessarily wrong, his approach is different and from a different perspective.

 

Trump is wrong on immigration when we take in consideration objective reality not his subjective perspective.

[youzer]

Didn't Trump say illegal immigration is a problem?   Sounds correct to me.

[yagami]

Right so for as long as you engage me I'm going to just sit here and keep pointing out that you're arguing to gamble on state power based on nothing but hope and faith.  Its just hard for me to believe you are ok with that.

 

Do whatever you want man, I just want to make sure you truly know what you're doing. The first thing you said to me was asking for humility, maybe you shouldn't gamble on something you claim to have very little knowledge on. Maybe you should be humble. 

 

 

If you were to vote for trump and he makes problems worse, are you going to take any responsibility for that? or do you just wash your hands and everything is fine?

 

When you say im gambling on nothing but but faith an hope that is completely wrong. Unless you are are referring to the ability to tell the future. I have already stated that based on my understanding of the situation I believe Trump's solution is best. What will actually happen I dont know but you can say that about anything. I guess I have hope and faith that Steph will continue to put out great content. I have hope and faith that my internet connection will be here tomorrow. Slapping this hope and faith onto your argument isnt adding anything here it's just a way to diminish what im saying.

 

I claim I have very little knowledge because I know what it means to have great knowledge in a particular area. When you really learn something deeply you realize how little you know about everything else and I know most people know almost nothing about this subject in particular but always seem to think they know the answer. So when you say I should be more humble you again are adding nothing to the conversation. I already said I know very little but given what I know I think Trump is right. How much more humble can I get?

 

I absolutely will not take responsibility for any negative outcome. Why should I? Im in prison. I can sit by and let the migrants come in I can choose to vote for more migrants to come in or I can vote for them to leave and keep them out. Keep in mind I have a gun to my head here. Two out of three of my options will destroy what progress we have made towards a free society. It's not even a question for me which answer is the best for our future. Steph often says when force is a factor morality goes out the window. Do you not believe that? It's like you dont see the danger that is coming to us all. This is a society destroying event. Sit there and theory craft about solutions that will never happen in your lifetime if you want. I will be out there doing what I can to ensure we have a free society in the future. 

 

Also sorry I took so long to reply. I wrote something before but I refreshed the page after writing something and got totally demoralized that my post got destroyed.

[Aaron727]

When you say im gambling on nothing but but faith an hope that is completely wrong. Unless you are are referring to the ability to tell the future. I have already stated that based on my understanding of the situation I believe Trump's solution is best. What will actually happen I dont know but you can say that about anything. I guess I have hope and faith that Steph will continue to put out great content. I have hope and faith that my internet connection will be here tomorrow. Slapping this hope and faith onto your argument isnt adding anything here it's just a way to diminish what im saying.

 

What you don't understand is there is a difference between confidence based on facts and hope and faith. With Stef's videos and your internet connection you have confidence based on the history of good service. You have some certainty because you have thousands of podcast and years of being connected to the internet. Will trump keep his word when he gets ultimate power? Will trumps solution reduce the number of illegals? If you say yes to those questions you are believing without proof. That is hope and faith.  My arguments stands.

 

 

I claim I have very little knowledge because I know what it means to have great knowledge in a particular area. When you really learn something deeply you realize how little you know about everything else and I know most people know almost nothing about this subject in particular but always seem to think they know the answer. So when you say I should be more humble you again are adding nothing to the conversation. I already said I know very little but given what I know I think Trump is right. How much more humble can I get?

 

You can be more humble by not gambling on the violent power of the state because all you have is blind faith.

 

 

I absolutely will not take responsibility for any negative outcome. Why should I? Im in prison. I can sit by and let the migrants come in I can choose to vote for more migrants to come in or I can vote for them to leave and keep them out. Keep in mind I have a gun to my head here. 

 

You have some small responsibility for negative outcomes because you are an intelligent person choosing to vote. There are no laws that force you to vote. What is so depressing is you're saying if you don't vote, all people do is sit by. This is because all you're doing right now is sitting by, doing nothing. You don't have to tell me but ask yourself: How many people have you brought arguments of peace to in your personal life? How many peaceful people are in your life and how many statists? Of the people in your life that are statists how many hours of conversations have you had with them about peace and stateless society? You don't have to sit by. You don't have to be weak.

 

 

Two out of three of my options will destroy what progress we have made towards a free society. It's not even a question for me which answer is the best for our future. Steph often says when force is a factor morality goes out the window. Do you not believe that? It's like you dont see the danger that is coming to us all. This is a society destroying event. Sit there and theory craft about solutions that will never happen in your lifetime if you want. I will be out there doing what I can to ensure we have a free society in the future. 

 

I'm pointing out its RIDICULOUS for you to  believe its the best answer because you're a blind man groping for a solution. You're talking about morality and i'm talking about not being a naive gambling fool.

 

Yes I will continue to bring rational arguments to people online and in my personal life. I will continue to argue for a reduction of state power to solve immigration and other problems. I will not lead people astray with feint hopes that the violent expansion of state power will give them a lil band-aid.

[urtothink_yahoo_com]

Your mom didn't say "use your words, not your fists" (in between the times she spanked you) ?

Nothing to do with my parents... apparently your's on the other hand beat white GUILT into YOU!!