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Posted

I listened to the FDR videos entitled 'wrong about atheism'.  I don't want to discuss the atheist issue which has been covered in another thread.  

 

While I agree that the values Christians hold are more in line with mine than leftist ones, it is true that the problem of Muslim migration, which is why Stef claims he is changing his position on things because of a time crunch thing, is primarily a problem of Middle East military interventionism which is supported by a significant percentage of Christians.  Some 70% of people in the US military are Christian.  For many Christians, it is biblical, and they mostly cheer it on because the mayhem and devastation there is the harbinger of the second coming.  

 

I know, not all Christians are like that.  

 

What I don't see is Christians pushing back against those that are supporting the programs that are at the root of the problem.  I did not hear Stef mention that this is what 'good' Christians should be doing in the same way that the 'good' Muslims should speak out and stand up to the dangerous policies promoted by their less than virtuous brothers and sisters in the faith.  

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I think I maybe able to identify some of the disconnect, I am a US military veteran and can say I have never met another Veteran that says he/she joined the military because they felt compelled by their Christian faith to do so for the purpose of fight Muslims in an attempt to win an end time battle. Nor do I i know any Christians that are on a convert or die mission towards Muslims.

 

In the Christian faith people are saved by grace no matter what they do. On the other hand it is my understanding that for the more radical sects of Islam killing infidels or non believers wins them good favor in the eyes of Allah. In my opinion that need to win good favor in the eyes of Allah give real purpose to killing in his name.

 

My point is US military members may or may not be Christians and their faith is not the main driver behind what they are doing, where as the Muslims fighting on the other side are often fighting in the name of their God.

Posted

I think I maybe able to identify some of the disconnect, I am a US military veteran and can say I have never met another Veteran that says he/she joined the military because they felt compelled by their Christian faith to do so for the purpose of fight Muslims in an attempt to win an end time battle. Nor do I i know any Christians that are on a convert or die mission towards Muslims.

 

In the Christian faith people are saved by grace no matter what they do. On the other hand it is my understanding that for the more radical sects of Islam killing infidels or non believers wins them good favor in the eyes of Allah. In my opinion that need to win good favor in the eyes of Allah give real purpose to killing in his name.

 

My point is US military members may or may not be Christians and their faith is not the main driver behind what they are doing, where as the Muslims fighting on the other side are often fighting in the name of their God.

I understand your point.  It is not the same for Christians as it is for Muslims.  Still, most fundamentalist Christians believe in the end times story involving the second coming in the Middle East and so do not actively oppose the interventions there as they think it is the fulfilling of biblical prophecy.  

Posted

I understand your point.  It is not the same for Christians as it is for Muslims.  Still, most fundamentalist Christians believe in the end times story involving the second coming in the Middle East and so do not actively oppose the interventions there as they think it is the fulfilling of biblical prophecy.  

The important question is: Is this group significant?

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

For many Christians, it is biblical, and they mostly cheer it on because the mayhem and devastation there is the harbinger of the second coming.

I'm not going to speak for "many Christians" as you did, but I don't see anything said by Jesus or any disciple of Jesus that would lead any Christian to believe what you claim we believe.

 

This entire post is a massive strawman.  American politicans want to gain control over the natural resources in th middle East.  That's why we're there.  There's nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is coming back once America secures the oil.

  • Upvote 1
Posted

I'm not going to speak for "many Christians" as you did, but I don't see anything said by Jesus or any disciple of Jesus that would lead any Christian to believe what you claim we believe.

 

This entire post is a massive strawman.  American politicans want to gain control over the natural resources in th middle East.  That's why we're there.  There's nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is coming back once America secures the oil.

I love your posts!  You actually speak reasonably!   I am so curious as to your Christian take on violence. Does Jesus condone the "right" (whatever that means) to retributive violence? To "just war theory"?  What about the "right" to self-defense?  If so, how did he show it in the New Testament?

Posted

I'm not going to speak for "many Christians" as you did, but I don't see anything said by Jesus or any disciple of Jesus that would lead any Christian to believe what you claim we believe.

 

This entire post is a massive strawman.  American politicans want to gain control over the natural resources in th middle East.  That's why we're there.  There's nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is coming back once America secures the oil.

American politicians want to gain access to middle east resources and they do that by convincing Christians that it is a moral ('axis of evil') crusade that is consistent with biblical prophesy.  

 

I am glad to know that you are not one of those Christians, but have you never heard of 'dispensationalism'?  Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, millions of followers here.  Google "Christians, Isreal, second coming" or just have a some conversations with Christians about the topic and let me know what they have to say.  

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/evangelical-christians-want-to-start-wwiii-to-speed-the-second-coming-and-atheist-neocons-are-using-religion-to-rile-them-up-to-justify-war-against-iran.html

  • 2 months later...
Posted

While I agree that the values Christians hold are more in line with mine than leftist ones, it is true that the problem of Muslim migration, which is why Stef claims he is changing his position on things because of a time crunch thing, is primarily a problem of Middle East military interventionism which is supported by a significant percentage of Christians.  Some 70% of people in the US military are Christian.  For many Christians, it is biblical, and they mostly cheer it on because the mayhem and devastation there is the harbinger of the second coming.  

 

I know, not all Christians are like that.  

 

What I don't see is Christians pushing back against those that are supporting the programs that are at the root of the problem.  I did not hear Stef mention that this is what 'good' Christians should be doing in the same way that the 'good' Muslims should speak out and stand up to the dangerous policies promoted by their less than virtuous brothers and sisters in the faith.  

I'd suggest that the reason you don't see many Christians pushing back is that a vast majority of professing Christians don't understand doctrine as taught by the apostle Paul.

The Bible must be understood 'dispensationally' in order to  properly apply doctrine. Most Christians today try to apply the earthly ministry of Jesus to the church today, but the gospel given in the synoptic gospels(Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) is that of the "Kingdom is at hand." The instructions(doctrine) given to the "Church, the Body of Christ" was given to the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul from the ascended Lord Jesus.

 

Christianity today is in extreme need of study-time. Christians have two commands today. First is to love God, because He loved us first. And second is to love our neighbor(everyone else) as ourselves. That is basic to Christian doctrine today. Sadly, too many professing Christians don't follow those teachings, much less, study their Bibles.

Posted

The important question is: Is this group significant?

damn right the Christian right is significant in supporting the US to invasion and occupation in the middle east - that is my point.  Bush made it into a religious crusade, look into those massively popular Christian leaders that I listed and their rhetoric.  

Posted

I'm not going to speak for "many Christians" as you did, but I don't see anything said by Jesus or any disciple of Jesus that would lead any Christian to believe what you claim we believe.

 

This entire post is a massive strawman.  American politicans want to gain control over the natural resources in th middle East.  That's why we're there.  There's nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is coming back once America secures the oil.

The motives of the political leaders is not the issue here, it is the fact that they, and the Christian leaders that I sited, have used their influence to gain the support of a large portion of the Christian population to carry out their agenda.  If you don't think that a lot of Christians are keen on the Middle East because of interpretations of end times stuff as cited in Revelations esp then have a look at the dispensationalist movement and its tenets.  

Posted

damn right the Christian right is significant in supporting the US to invasion and occupation in the middle east - that is my point.  Bush made it into a religious crusade, look into those massively popular Christian leaders that I listed and their rhetoric.  

You can't list those Chirstian leaders yourself? And could you perhaps pin a number on their support? Maybe cite some studies?

Posted

You can't list those Chirstian leaders yourself? And could you perhaps pin a number on their support? Maybe cite some studies?

you can start with the names and the link I mention in the post above and go from there for yourself if you are interested.  

Posted

I love your posts! You actually speak reasonably! I am so curious as to your Christian take on violence. Does Jesus condone the "right" (whatever that means) to retributive violence? To "just war theory"? What about the "right" to self-defense? If so, how did he show it in the New Testament?

Here are some quotes to hopefully answer your questions.

 

Romans 12

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

 

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

 

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

 

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

 

Matthew 21

12 ¶And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

 

John 2

13 ¶And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

 

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

 

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

 

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

 

 

Hopefully this will help answer your questions.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I listened to the FDR videos entitled 'wrong about atheism'.  I don't want to discuss the atheist issue which has been covered in another thread.  

 

While I agree that the values Christians hold are more in line with mine than leftist ones, it is true that the problem of Muslim migration, which is why Stef claims he is changing his position on things because of a time crunch thing, is primarily a problem of Middle East military interventionism which is supported by a significant percentage of Christians.  Some 70% of people in the US military are Christian.  For many Christians, it is biblical, and they mostly cheer it on because the mayhem and devastation there is the harbinger of the second coming.  

 

I know, not all Christians are like that.  

 

What I don't see is Christians pushing back against those that are supporting the programs that are at the root of the problem.  I did not hear Stef mention that this is what 'good' Christians should be doing in the same way that the 'good' Muslims should speak out and stand up to the dangerous policies promoted by their less than virtuous brothers and sisters in the faith.  

The Christian idea that the second coming in the end of times will occur in the Middle East is a very controversial idea in Christianity.The latest poll I could find showed that 65% of Christians believe in a second coming/antichrist/1000 year reign. That's actually higher than I thought it would be. In my experience, this belief is the "default" belief, but most educated Christians actually reject it. Still though, even Christians who reject it are very pro-war. In my opinion, it's because they let their sense of patriotism outweigh the message of peace presented by Jesus. There are a growing number of Christians who are anti-war.

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