Annoyed by Conspirists

[regevdl]

Some of Stefan's podcasts talk about how Conspirists actually serve the Establishment better than the cause they claim to serve.  It struck me but the more I pondered it, themore it really rings true.  The 9/11 Truthers really busy themselves trying to prove something that even with the best evidence....does nothing because all the players already ensconsed themselves in 'legal loopholes' that the average citizen would spend a lifetime and fortune unravelling with no progress. 

 

Anyway, my friend came from the left and still has some residual habits leftover.  Her hubby is Russian and I think still traumatized by the Communist regime and what I perceived as healthy skepticism is not, instead it's complete redundant, OCD conspiracy. they are a bit older (in their mid/late 50s) and only converted to Libertarianism in the last decade or so, so I wouldn't expect her to be (or anyone to be) a purist of sorts but still...I guess I expected the wisdom of self-awareness at that age.  

 

EVERY election her 'assessment' of the candidates are the same.  Now, Trump is the Establishment's chosen man to deal with the economic crash. 

 

Now it's funny because she only stated that after he is the clear projected nominee.  I threw some of Stefan's predictions at her early on and she brushed me off as if she was too busy with more important things.  But now that 'retrospect' gives us all perfect vision, she is SURE he is part of the establishment. ugh.  Like there is no wiggle room.  No room to contemplate the vantages he brings. 

 

My healthy skepticism is like...ok...he totally could be but it's not like there aren't other factors to consider that he might be the real deal (albeit now a politician) but moreso than the rest.  

 

It's just a bit frustrating and more accurately disappointing, since she is a dear friend of mine who has shared many philosophical disussions and I still continue but ...you know how it is. 

 

But seriously.... the guy gives up his already busy lifestyle in making millions/billions to do shit work of 'serving the public' and ok.... so he hooks up some of his buddies..... what will he get out of it.  MORE fame?  MORE money?  This ''he's a narcissist' can only carry on so far.  I think the dude knows he has more money than god...not more than the Rothchilds but more than enough to make him feel large and in charge...  now Hillary has ONLY used politics to make herself more money and more fame and when people put them in the same categor I get so annoyed...like pissed!

 

So this wasn't a question, more of a rant/sharing so if anyone has more to add, please feel free. 

[TheAuger]

Hi regevdl; interesting post.  I get frustrated with the usage of the term "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory" -- but for the opposite reason.  I've noticed that when people use the term "conspiracy", they use it as a way to dismiss concepts and fact based arguments out of hand; it's something NOT to be believed, on it's face, without having to provide counter arguments.

 

To me, this is extremely intellectually dishonest and lazy.  (I'm not saying this is what you're doing, by the way).

 

But simultaneously, "conspiracy" is a recognized legal concept in most systems all over the globe for a long time.  

 

So, for example, just look at the term you used -- 9/11 "Truther" -- which the MSM media uses as if the truth were something to be ridiculed, dismissed, ignored, etc (again, not saying that's the way you were using it).

 

In fact, the term "conspiracy theory" was a creation of the CIA -- on record.

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-23/1967-he-cia-created-phrase-conspiracy-theorists-and-ways-attack-anyone-who-challenge

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=TilCeCKDujQC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=cia+%22Conspiracy+on+the+large+scale+often+suggested+would+be+impossible+to+conceal+in+the+United+States.%22&source=bl&ots=R3UDlJbyo3&sig=FGKbeXrsfpMMDxWQSozPvh0ic20&hl=en&sa=X&ei=95fqVIb_ONXnoAT-pIDQDg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cia%20%22Conspiracy%20on%20the%20large%20scale%20often%20suggested%20would%20be%20impossible%20to%20conceal%20in%20the%20United%20States.%22&f=false

[Donnadogsoth]

Gaining the Oval Office will be a feather in Trump's cap.  And maybe he actually wants to help the country.

 

What I don't understand is "conspiracy people" who are totally pessimistic, every election is rigged, every candidate is bought, etc..  Why do they bother reading about this stuff if there's no hope?  Just hobbyism I guess.

[luxfelix]

Gaining the Oval Office will be a feather in Trump's cap.  And maybe he actually wants to help the country.

 

What I don't understand is "conspiracy people" who are totally pessimistic, every election is rigged, every candidate is bought, etc..  Why do they bother reading about this stuff if there's no hope?  Just hobbyism I guess.

 

Could be an addiction to the brain chemicals released?

[regevdl]

Hi regevdl; interesting post.  I get frustrated with the usage of the term "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory" -- but for the opposite reason.  I've noticed that when people use the term "conspiracy", they use it as a way to dismiss concepts and fact based arguments out of hand; it's something NOT to be believed, on it's face, without having to provide counter arguments.

 

To me, this is extremely intellectually dishonest and lazy.  (I'm not saying this is what you're doing, by the way).

 

But simultaneously, "conspiracy" is a recognized legal concept in most systems all over the globe for a long time.  

 

So, for example, just look at the term you used -- 9/11 "Truther" -- which the MSM media uses as if the truth were something to be ridiculed, dismissed, ignored, etc (again, not saying that's the way you were using it).

 

In fact, the term "conspiracy theory" was a creation of the CIA -- on record.

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-23/1967-he-cia-created-phrase-conspiracy-theorists-and-ways-attack-anyone-who-challenge

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=TilCeCKDujQC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=cia+%22Conspiracy+on+the+large+scale+often+suggested+would+be+impossible+to+conceal+in+the+United+States.%22&source=bl&ots=R3UDlJbyo3&sig=FGKbeXrsfpMMDxWQSozPvh0ic20&hl=en&sa=X&ei=95fqVIb_ONXnoAT-pIDQDg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cia%20%22Conspiracy%20on%20the%20large%20scale%20often%20suggested%20would%20be%20impossible%20to%20conceal%20in%20the%20United%20States.%22&f=false

THanks for your feedback.  yes....I typically don't use the term conspiracy theory.  In this instance I simply used it for context effect in that, the mainstream would deem it as such.  I entertain their theories but I realize that she pulls me down these wells and I lose sight of the day to day dots to connect of what's really creeping up on us in our society.  I guess too, I become frustrated because even if I accept their theories and facts to provide efficacy, they have absolutely no solutions.  It's like the leftist atheist approach....knock the foundation from under you and leave you with nothing over your head.  let's say tomorrow all the proof necessary is revealed that the US gvt was 100% behind 9/11 or the JFK assassination... ok..then what?  Do people actually think anyone will stand trial...the system is rigged, right?  Does anyone think that if there is a trial, the persons responsible will see a punishment or will it fall to a scapegoat as it always has in lesser crimes where evidence is clear?  

 

I do like Stefan's take on some of the issue ( I used 9/11 as a prime example) in that do we really need to prove the gvt was or wasn't behind 9/11 to turn people off the concept of being ruled over by ruthless overlords?  I know another example Stefan used was that to really convince the brainwashed Germans how bad Hitler was, let's dig up all his unpaid parking tickets and that will wake them up.  lol  

 

I try to reveal this to her that it's ok to be skepctical but in her mind EVERYTHING is a false flag, EVERYTHING is Israel, EVERYTHING is a rigged election (which I agree but I see the rigging from a totally different angle), EVERYTHING is puppetry, etc yet she is currently fighting her local gvt on some issue that I asked her....if it's rigged, then why are you wasting your time fighting against a determined outcome....couldn't you instead use the time, energy and resource to educate people on taxation is theft and peaceful parenting than beating up a rigged system?  It baffles me.  lol

[A4E]

These days I try to focus on the future, trying to tell people to be more critical. In an ideal world where everyone are critical, the recent Pulse nightclub thing would not spur thousands of videos on youtube, or thousands of discussions everywhere, because people would first demand evidence, or just dismiss it out of hand as it imo should have been because of no evidence.

 

I know that I am risking getting banned here because such non evidence events are packed with lots of emotions, creating a lot of emotional waves and division online, which is the goal. And the oh so predictable gun control plugs.

 

How about those claiming it is real, prove it, and then we can talk about it. Here are a few things to note:

 

300 people magically not making any video recordings with their cellphone and posting online of what happened inside.

 

Apparently no ambulances have been caught on tape outside the nightclub.

 

 

People accepting non evidence events like these has done a lot for building towards tyranny and loss of freedoms, and just about nothing to stop violent muslims, so I don't really see any reason to go along with these non evidence events, but each to their own I guess. I don't even live in the USA, but I seem to care more about it than most Americans because I understand that it is some of the only beacons of real freedom in the world.

[regevdl]

These days I try to focus on the future, trying to tell people to be more critical. In an ideal world where everyone are critical, the recent Pulse nightclub thing would not spur thousands of videos on youtube, or thousands of discussions everywhere, because people would first demand evidence, or just dismiss it out of hand as it imo should have been because of no evidence.

 

I know that I am risking getting banned here because such non evidence events are packed with lots of emotions, creating a lot of emotional waves and division online, which is the goal. And the oh so predictable gun control plugs.

 

How about those claiming it is real, prove it, and then we can talk about it. Here are a few things to note:

 

300 people magically not making any video recordings with their cellphone and posting online of what happened inside.

 

Apparently no ambulances have been caught on tape outside the nightclub.

 

 

People accepting non evidence events like these has done a lot for building towards tyranny and loss of freedoms, and just about nothing to stop violent muslims, so I don't really see any reason to go along with these non evidence events, but each to their own I guess. I don't even live in the USA, but I seem to care more about it than most Americans because I understand that it is some of the only beacons of real freedom in the world.

I get that, especially in this instant-recording/social media world we live in, however keep in mind...there is crime-solving protocol.  I'm not saying I put trust that the police always follow logical protocol however I am sure there are cases where phones are being used for investigation and won't be revealed to the public and the security cameras in the nightclub confiscated by investigators.  I would HOPE that is why there isn't video evidence.  But I get it...we should be skeptical but also keep in mind there are a lot of tweets during the event.  

 

I am trying to put myself into a possibly drunken state and startled into a panic confusion, scared shitless with no way to defend myself..I don't think I would be cowering but holding my glowing phone up to take photos or video....I think it's reasonable that most were cowering and texting loved ones.  

 

There is one video  found online claimed to be within the club and you can hear the shots fired and the patrons don't notice but then take a 'pause'....which coincides with the testimonies that many thought it was part of the music..until they realized it wasn't. 

 

AGain...I won't go down this road too much on this specific incident because I also focus on day to day solutions rather than dive deep into single events a million miles away but even without evidence, we are able to make arguments for a better future even with the beliefs (whether based on non-evidence events or otherwise). 

 

This has spurred the gun debate or the immigration/Islam debate.  Even if people fully believe it occured with no evidence, I can use their arguments against them without needing to prove whether or not the event actually happened.  

[Rayakins]

I have a lot of sympathy for the conspiracy theorists scepticism of the state and the powerful but I think that it can become philosophically problematic where people imagine that there were no conspiracies everything would be perfect, and resources would be so plentiful that no one would have to work and that it is only the one big, global conspiracy that keeps us from utopia. It seems kind of linked to primitivism, I see quite a few memes which suggest that everyone lived a happy and joyful existent before we became "imprisoned" by science and technology. This plays into the hands of the state because it is easy to blow these ideas up with common sense and it also stops the people who put forward these viewpoints from building something productive in their own lives, because they feel there is no point with the conspiracy around. Utopian ideas are very demoralising and energy sapping because they lead to constant disappointment.

[A4E]

... I am sure there are cases where phones are being used for investigation and won't be revealed to the public and the security cameras in the nightclub confiscated by investigators.  I would HOPE that is why there isn't video evidence.

I have not seen anything about phones being confiscated, have you? If it was the case, there should at least be some report of all phones being confiscated, and then a couple of people who are really pissed off about it, but being reassured that it is for the investigation, and they have to be without their phone for days, weeks, months. I have seen how people can not live without their phone within just hours, and also they are going to call all their friends, and go online to talk about what happened to them, (which I guess no one really did much of because this event has not been proven yet), so no, that is just too far fetched to even contemplate. Would you agree?

 

Security cameras inside is new information to me. But not surprising.

 

 

But I get it...we should be skeptical but also keep in mind there are a lot of tweets during the event. 

In a state of panic and complete shock, not knowing if they will die or live another day, they are ok with typing away on their phone to share their feelings in the moment. BUT can not point the camera on the phone in any general direction of what is happening. Written fictional storytelling has been around for thousands of years. Written language is not something to be trusted by itself.

 

 

I am trying to put myself into a possibly drunken state and startled into a panic confusion, scared shitless with no way to defend myself..I don't think I would be cowering but holding my glowing phone up to take photos or video....I think it's reasonable that most were cowering and texting loved ones.

Maybe just me, but I would try to find any means of survival first.

 

 

AGain...I won't go down this road too much on this specific incident because I also focus on day to day solutions rather than dive deep into single events a million miles away but even without evidence, we are able to make arguments for a better future even with the beliefs (whether based on non-evidence events or otherwise). 

I see these non evidence events as giant nation, and international, adds for more government power and regulations. Sure we have effect talking rationally to already rationally open people, but by accepting horror stories without evidence, I believe we are inadvertently making the case that we need protection from a big daddy, which now means governments.

 

I don't believe for a second that no one is able to fight back in such a situation. When adrenaline is flowing in humans, they can become very powerful, bold, smart, and fast.

 

This has spurred the gun debate or the immigration/Islam debate.  Even if people fully believe it occured with no evidence, I can use their arguments against them without needing to prove whether or not the event actually happened.

Sure, that is having effect. I just don't like the premise of accepting fiction in order to do this.

[regevdl]

I have not seen anything about phones being confiscated, have you? If it was the case, there should at least be some report of all phones being confiscated, and then a couple of people who are really pissed off about it, but being reassured that it is for the investigation, and they have to be without their phone for days, weeks, months. I have seen how people can not live without their phone within just hours, and also they are going to call all their friends, and go online to talk about what happened to them, (which I guess no one really did much of because this event has not been proven yet), so no, that is just too far fetched to even contemplate. Would you agree?

 

Security cameras inside is new information to me. But not surprising.

 

In a state of panic and complete shock, not knowing if they will die or live another day, they are ok with typing away on their phone to share their feelings in the moment. BUT can not point the camera on the phone in any general direction of what is happening. Written fictional storytelling has been around for thousands of years. Written language is not something to be trusted by itself.

 

Maybe just me, but I would try to find any means of survival first.

 

I see these non evidence events as giant nation, and international, adds for more government power and regulations. Sure we have effect talking rationally to already rationally open people, but by accepting horror stories without evidence, I believe we are inadvertently making the case that we need protection from a big daddy, which now means governments.

 

I don't believe for a second that no one is able to fight back in such a situation. When adrenaline is flowing in humans, they can become very powerful, bold, smart, and fast.

 

Sure, that is having effect. I just don't like the premise of accepting fiction in order to do this.

I agree that these events, whether they are false flags or not...are always scooped up and exploited by gvt to impose more power against its subjects.  That's what I mean.....It doesn't have to be a gvt program/designed event for the gvt to exploit it.  they'll do it anyway...

 

I do think it's odd that there weren't any cases of people fighting back.  There is one guy ON CAMERA admitting that he got outside to an ally and held the door SHUT!  He admitted that he heard people banging on the door and 'woudl feel guilty' if he knew it was clubgoers and not the shooter.  He said this on a major news network witha straight face without pause.  

 

I do recall (My data may be inaccurate) that it was 'Latino night' at the club.  I am not privy to the proportion of latino versus non in attendance but I think it's safe to be (if we take the story for face value) that it was predominately latino.  Now they are known for hot-temper...in aggregate. so maybe the 'gay' factor played into their cowardly panic or maybe this is the TRUE nature of latino in real combat scenario...meaning when they aren't picking on guys in Trump shirts walking down the street minding their business but need to face a REAL threat...

 

I quietly pondered this as well and tried to put myself back when I was childless as I am sure most of the patrons that night are childless and probably young so I tried to put myself in that mindset and I was a total passive fraidy cat back then.  now that I have children, there is really nothing that I wouldn't be willing to face since I have 'skin' in the game now.  so again...this isn't to exonerate the individuals of the official narrative, whether it actually happened or not...but just other elements to ponder on the willingness to fight back due to ethnicity, offspring, age, circumstance....

 

It is odd that no reports of any self-defense are out there....

[regevdl]

I have a lot of sympathy for the conspiracy theorists scepticism of the state and the powerful but I think that it can become philosophically problematic where people imagine that there were no conspiracies everything would be perfect, and resources would be so plentiful that no one would have to work and that it is only the one big, global conspiracy that keeps us from utopia. It seems kind of linked to primitivism, I see quite a few memes which suggest that everyone lived a happy and joyful existent before we became "imprisoned" by science and technology. This plays into the hands of the state because it is easy to blow these ideas up with common sense and it also stops the people who put forward these viewpoints from building something productive in their own lives, because they feel there is no point with the conspiracy around. Utopian ideas are very demoralising and energy sapping because they lead to constant disappointment.

your first sentence hit the spot.  that really resonated with me and I think led me to identify my 'issue' with it.  That yes...I love their curiosity and skepticism and whistle blowing but it stunts them from being more philosophically consistant and actionable. 

 

Stefan had a few 9/11 truther callers and it was interesting the evidence that was put forth and one of the conversations went on a good while and finally Stefan asked why it was important to the caller and if they prove everything tomorrow then how do we move forward and the caller couldn't even give an answer.  Like he had NEVER considered it.  Now maybe it's just me but if I'm putting effort into proving something I am also trying to come up with a solution and way to move foward AFTER the lie is proven a lie, no matter how big or small and it was incredibly revealing how the guy didn't even think past his efforts of providing evidence which shows either he believes interally that it can never be proven to which..what's the point in pursuing because even in legal matters, you need to be able to prove it so there will be no recourse for those repsonsible or he hasn't put equal or any thought into life after it's proven....then again...what's the point if there is no solution or practical course redirection or knew education, then it's bound to be repeated, etc. 

 

Then Stefan asked him if it would also help to put just as much time and effort (I think the guy admitted to spending more than 10 hours a week on 9/11 evidence), if he applied that to spending 10 hours /week or even 5 hours/week on taxation is theft or spanking violates NAP, etc...if that would havea more immediate, tangible affect on people's lives.  

[pretzelogik]

It is a matter of why people believe what they believe.

 

When a story is presented by the media, we can accept it as fact or discard it as fiction.  In my experience, most accept the stories presented as fact simply because they are presented by the media as fact.  It makes no difference that the media apparatus is typically engaged in presenting fiction most of the time or that its prime directive is to sell advertising (a directive that never changes, as the most dire narratives can be interrupted by commercials).

 

I posted an article I wrote about the topic of conspiracy a while ago here.

 

It bears revisiting, now that another story has been presented that most are accepting as fact on the authority of the media, as opposed to weighing the evidence and attempting to reconcile the contradictions, which is a challenge considering the breadth and depth of the anomalies.

 

When people dismiss conspiracy theorists, the "truthers" as it were, they are attempting to discharge the discomfort of the cognitive dissonance that has resulted from being exposed to information that contradicts the pillars that support their reality.   Telling people taxation is theft has a similar effect.  If new information causes a reevaluation of a current event that has been accepted as true, the subconscious draws the inference that other events that have been accepted as historical fact are suspect.  If 9/11 was not as we were told, perhaps George Washington did not chop down the cherry tree and Jesus did not walk on water.  Much easier to dismiss the contrarians as tin foil hatters and return to business as usual.

 

Ultimately, a continued disregard of reality cannot be a net positive, regardless of the discomfort of the realignment.  Living without fear of nuclear annihilation or being a victim of some random terror attacks are two benefits of media skepticism that come to mind.  Knowing that I am a victim of the ever tightening noose of government oppression is another matter, but it is still much abstract (thankfully) at this stage for the most part, at least in the US.

[A4E]

'Shooter' in Orlando non evidence event appears in a BP oil spill 'documentary' from 2012 at around the 36 minute mark.

[Mrdthree]

Some of Stefan's podcasts talk about how Conspirists actually serve the Establishment better than the cause they claim to serve.  It struck me but the more I pondered it, themore it really rings true.  The 9/11 Truthers really busy themselves trying to prove something that even with the best evidence....does nothing because all the players already ensconsed themselves in 'legal loopholes' that the average citizen would spend a lifetime and fortune unravelling with no progress. 

 

Anyway, my friend came from the left and still has some residual habits leftover.  Her hubby is Russian and I think still traumatized by the Communist regime and what I perceived as healthy skepticism is not, instead it's complete redundant, OCD conspiracy. they are a bit older (in their mid/late 50s) and only converted to Libertarianism in the last decade or so, so I wouldn't expect her to be (or anyone to be) a purist of sorts but still...I guess I expected the wisdom of self-awareness at that age.  

 

EVERY election her 'assessment' of the candidates are the same.  Now, Trump is the Establishment's chosen man to deal with the economic crash. 

 

Now it's funny because she only stated that after he is the clear projected nominee.  I threw some of Stefan's predictions at her early on and she brushed me off as if she was too busy with more important things.  But now that 'retrospect' gives us all perfect vision, she is SURE he is part of the establishment. ugh.  Like there is no wiggle room.  No room to contemplate the vantages he brings. 

 

My healthy skepticism is like...ok...he totally could be but it's not like there aren't other factors to consider that he might be the real deal (albeit now a politician) but moreso than the rest.  

 

It's just a bit frustrating and more accurately disappointing, since she is a dear friend of mine who has shared many philosophical disussions and I still continue but ...you know how it is. 

 

But seriously.... the guy gives up his already busy lifestyle in making millions/billions to do shit work of 'serving the public' and ok.... so he hooks up some of his buddies..... what will he get out of it.  MORE fame?  MORE money?  This ''he's a narcissist' can only carry on so far.  I think the dude knows he has more money than god...not more than the Rothchilds but more than enough to make him feel large and in charge...  now Hillary has ONLY used politics to make herself more money and more fame and when people put them in the same categor I get so annoyed...like pissed!

 

So this wasn't a question, more of a rant/sharing so if anyone has more to add, please feel free. 

 

perhaps someone can do the community a service, study the difference between real conspiracies and falsified conspiracies. In evidence based medicine the veracity of claims is usually given a scale like. (1) randomized double blind, metanalysis confirmation; (2) randomized double blind controlled single study (3) controlled, large number single study (4) small number controlled study (5) mixed evidence (6) observational evidence (7) theoretical support no evidence (8) no evidence. Might be a good wiki project.... But I suppose it should have a legal scale of evidence.

 

maybe a first project is to use the above scale and mine wikileaks. Is it a conspiracy to tell a world leader one thing and internally say/do/plan another? does wikileaks support the existence of such conspiracies? If not, what is the degree required? was abu gharaib a conspiracy? Id do it but I would need 80K/year

[luxfelix]

'Shooter' in Orlando non evidence event appears in a BP oil spill 'documentary' from 2012 at around the 36 minute mark.

 

I've heard the term "crisis actor" used; not too dissimilar from hired protesters?