regevdl Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 Hi everyone, I am really sick of hearing and saying 'not all of them are like that' when it comes to bringing up anything about terrorism or Islam. I've personally stopped but catch myself doing it from time to time and I annoy myself. lol But when I hear it I do an internal eye-roll like....yes...we get it...they all aren't like that and we all have an IQ abov 90 to understand that....speaking in aggregate is just that....aggregate. But I still felt unsatisfied about it...like there has to be more data out there to make a clearer distinction so we know WHO are like that...if there is a way to even tell. So Sunni make up the majority of he Muslim population...like...by far. But what's interesting is that the FBI, from 1996 until 2008 published yearly data reports about terrorism around the world and in the US, of course. Obama was sworn in in 2009 and there has not been an FBI published report on terrorism since 2008. I sifted through the various data points and it's ALL sunni and they kill far more muslim civilians. As most of us already know. But I wonder.....as bad as Iraq was and the amount of dead bodies and mutlated bodies we left behind. I won't be surprised if the Sunni population is counting the death tolls THEY rang up (which from 2003 - 2008 I roughly calculated more than 165,000) and adding those to OUR numbers. That doesn't make it better...dead bodies are dead bodies of course but again...the data only goes to 2008 so that number, if consistantly around 15,000/16,000 per year as the FBI reported, then that is at the hands of Sunnis against other Muslims...likely Shias. Now we know in the past, the US was on a hunt for Communists in the US and black listing and such. unfortunately, because of theocracies where the religion is the state and the state is the religion, the ideology and religious law/sharia law of the Sunnis can be weasled out by claiming religlious freedom if the US were to actually hold a more firm skeptical eye of allowing Sunnis in. I am sure there are some crazy Shia but the Sunnis by FAR take the statisticaal cake on terroism around the world. I felt a bit 'empowered' by this information so that the next time someone says 'they aren't all like that' I can confidently say.... you are right...it's mostly Sunnis. and frankly that is a helpful distinction. just as I don't want people to lump all Christians equal to that of Westboro or Mormons, I think Islam should be called out by their distinctions. Catholics, for example by FAR support gay marriage (64%) compared to any other christian group. They deserve credit for that...not be slandered as 'Christians are homophobic'. I think if we all do diligience on doing a better job fine-tooth combing and discerning which facets of the groups are causing the most harm, the more quickly we can advance and improve these violent and dangerous times.
Will Torbald Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 Not all Sunnis are like that. Now what? It never ends. They don't want to advocate for the muslims that don't commit terrorism. They are telling you to shut up because you are making them feel uncomfortable, and afraid of being labeled an islamophobe or a racist.
aviet Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I've had fairly good success with communicating the threats of Islam via sending statistics to people. I told one person I know that 25% of Muslims in the UK believe that there should be a death penalty for those who leave Islam and that most people who leave Islam in the UK are abandoned by their parents. He didn't believe me; and I don't particularly blame him due to the general media complacency and it is so alien from the general, bog-standard British person for whom religion and tribalism has not touched their life. After sending him the documentation by email, he believed me.I've sent nothing to my friends other than statistics and so far I've not been called a racist and it has been received.As for it mostly being sunnis. I don't think that has a huge amount of relevance. Many of the ideas you will likely think problematic are present throughout all branches of Islam, with the exception of Ahmadiyya. For example, the Supreme Ruler of Iran (the center of shia) give instructions on his website (leader.ir) for jihad and other backward acts. He also wrote the book Death to America and regularly preaches it to hordes of chanters.The most moderate (from an Islamic perspective countries) are Sunni: Albania, Bosnia, Turkey and Tunisia. Though I think under Iran's theocracy, there is a lot of rebellion. I heard the irreligiosity of Iranian Americans is below the irreligiosity of Americans in general.----As someone who is concerned about how Islam is going to shape the world in the coming century, I care little about terrorism. Since 9/11 nearly 200,000 people have been killed by Islamic terrorist attacks, but most of them have been in their own countries. There have been relativity few people killed in the West. My concern is what is called orthodox, mainstream, or normative Islam - the ideas the are held by majorities or large minorities of Muslims. These same ideas are held by 'radicals'. It's just the radicals want to impose them by violence. I'll post details of this in a second thread.One of my main observations as to the mainstream beliefs of Muslims is that what are called liberals (Marxists) and to a lesser extent cuckservatives are very wary of any criticism of Islam, though with some prodding it is easy to get them to say they condemn certain ideas, but still cling on to the idea that Muslims are little different than Westerners and nothing to worry about. Yet if a political party in say Russia, Poland or Hungary started espousing ideas such as:Homosexuality should be illegalWomen should always obey their husbandsAdulterous wives can be killed by their husbandMen can marry up to four wiveswhich are common beliefs among Muslims, the same Marxists and cucks would be crying "far-right!" and insisting they will bring about WWIII. Some statistics:Islam and WomenGender Gap Report (sort by 2015)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_ReportLowest twelve countries are Islamic13th is 1/3 Islamic (Africa)16th is the first non-Islamic countryHighest ranked is Bangladesh (62nd)Afghanistan is not on the list, which would be at the bottom by a considerable margin.Polygamy Considerable support for men being allowed to marry multiple wives (women not permitted to do so):http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp3-8.pngEstimated 20,000 polygamous Muslim marriages in the UK, similar in other W Euro countries:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11108763/The-Men-with-Many-Wives-the-British-Muslims-who-practise-polygamy.htmlHonour Killings are DishonourableLarge minorities and some majorities support killing family members who bring shame on a family for marital and sexual transgressions:http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp3-11.pngWife Must Obey Her HusbandResounding support:http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-2.pngIslam and GaysOnly Muslim counties have the death penalty for gays:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svgOnly of few of countries where it is not illegal (Mali, Albania [Muslims are small majority and religion is not taken seriously after it was banned during communism], Turkey, Indonesia, Jordan [King is half English liberal who was in the British army]) and in those it is wildly condemned:http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp3-6.pngIslam and JurisprudenceSharia is law derived from the Quran and the Hadith. It's laws are considered non-negotiable - it cannot be reformed. It prescribes various punishments and liberties, such as the killing of Jews, that wives must be prepared to have sex with their husband whenever they want it, homosexuals are to be killed, cross-dressers are cursed...Too much to list, but see the gay bashing:https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:HomosexualitySupport for Sharia as the official law of the land:http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-3.pngWith considerable support for non-Muslims being subject to Sharia:http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-5.pngThat means paying a tax or being killed.Islam and Freedom of the PressPress Freedom Index:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_IndexHighest Islamic country is 52 of 180, Niger has a history of arresting journalists and much of the country is off limits to foreign journalists. The first Middle Eastern country is Lebanon at 98, which is 40% Christian. Next is Kuwait: 103.Turkey, arguably the most moderate Islamic country has prosecuted hundreds of journalists in the past two years:http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/17/turkish-president-taken-268-court-insultingAND VIOLENCEDeath for ApostatesUp to 86% support for killing people who leave Islam:http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-9.pngIslam and Suicide BombingsSmall but notable support for suicide bombings:http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-13.pngMurderMore likely to be murdered in all Islamic countries except Saudi (hard Shari law) and UAE (Sharia and majority non-Muslim)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate Islam and Racial ToleranceWorld Values SurveyBritain is the most tolerant country in the world, Muslim countries intolerant across the board:http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/world-values-survey-racial-tolerance-britain-468205https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/05/racial-tolerance-map-hk-fix.jpg&w=1484Anti-Jewish Sentimenthttp://global100.adl.orgUK: 8% of the population (I'd imagine at least 2% of that is Muslims)Middle East and North Africa: 74%Iraq at 92%Sixteen Muslim countries bar entry of Israelis, including Muslims who make up 17.5% of the country and are politically franchised. BRITISH STATISTICS52% of British Mulsims think homosexuality should be illegal compared to 5% of gen. pop.:http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/more-50-british-muslims-back-criminalising-homosexuality-icm-poll-reveals-15541260/500 British Muslims say homosexuality is acceptable:https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexualityA collection:http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx
Revolution_In_Waiting Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 There are so many people that can't seem to get their mind round the idea that Christians as a whole are less of a threat to people's human rights than Muslims because the average Christian these days is not a fundamentalist. Not the case with the average Muslim it appears. Not aware of an Islamic reformation that ever occurred either. I'm sure a lot actually know but are just in denial.
aviet Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Specific for Turkey: More Than 12 million Turks would consider moving to Britain if Turkey joined the EU: http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/turkey-poll/RelocatingtoBritain_KONDA_Report.pdf Turkey facts: 5% illiterate - 4 million 10% of females illiterate Global Gender Gap Report: 10% lower score than anywhere in Europe; only one country in Africa is lower UN Gender Inequality Index rank: 72 World Press Freedom Index: 151 out of 180; worst in the EU is Greece at 89 Gazeteciler: 112 journalists murdered in 103 years World Bank: 400% more likely to be murdered in Turkey Eurostat: 272% more reported crime in Turkey Turkstat & ONS: unemployment 1.2 times higher Ease of Doing Business Index - UK: 5; Turkey: 55 Heritage Foundation Economic Freedom Index - UK: 10; Turkey: 79 Pew Research: 15% of Muslims in Turkey support suicide bombings Pew Research: 13% of Muslims in Turkey want to live under theocracy Pew Research: only 36% of Muslims in Turkey support separation of church and state Pew Research: over 1 million adult Muslim Turks believe those who leave Islam should be killed BBC: 37% of Muslim men in Turkey think adulterous women should be killed Pew Research: 65% of Muslims in Turkey believe a woman should always obey her husband Walk Free Foundation: 185,000 in slavery; 8,300 in the UK OECD: Second worst in income inequality UN: Seats held by women in national parliaments - 14.4% UNICEF: 2.5% married by the age of 15 UN: 40% of Turkish women are victims of domestic violence; Refugee Workers Association Woman’s Group says 80% Havocscope: more than twice as many prostitutes in Turkey International Centre for Prison Studies: 33% more people in prison in Turkey Global Peace Index: ranked 135/162 Global Terrorism Index: 27th worst UN Good Country Index: 79/125 Yale Environmental Performance Index: 99/180 Human Development Index: ranked 72 Univ. of Leic. Satisfaction with Life Index: ranked 133/178 Fraser Institute Index for criminal justice: worse than anywhere in Europe
DaveR Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Of course there are degrees of anything. Islam as a whole is a bad ideology, just like Socialism is. Obviously communist socialism is more dangerous than post war social democracy, though, in both, i think there is a slide towards fundamentalism. I guess there is the question of how much of it is the 'religion' vs. the 'culture' The US until recently, I am informed, had a mainly shia muslim population in the form of Persians. They are not economically dysfunctional and tend to be seen as one of America's more benevolent immigrant cohorts. However, is it because they are Shias, (religion) or because they are educated middle class Persians fleeing orthodoxy? (culture) In the UK, most of the muslims in the North are Mirpuri muslims (generally the most inbred, backward of Pakistanis..they make up the bulk of the paedo gangs). The Punjabis (of which Sadiqque Khan, the Sultan of Londonistan is one) are generally considered less troublesome...though even Sadiqque Khan attended a rally to encourage the boycott of Ahmadi Muslims (a sect that specifically repudiates violent Jihad...one of whom was murdered by a mirpuri in Glasgow earlier this year). Regardless, around 65% of muslims in the UK are deobandi (Taliban ideology) or Wahhabi. Sunni and hardly moderate denominations. My view is if you need economic migrants (something I doubt) why even consider any muslims? We know there are many willing non-muslim asians desirous to come to the west and they are virtually GUARANTEED to not have the Islamic baggage. Yes, its discriminatory, but the whole point of borders is precisely to discriminate. 2
regevdl Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 Not all Sunnis are like that. Now what? It never ends. They don't want to advocate for the muslims that don't commit terrorism. They are telling you to shut up because you are making them feel uncomfortable, and afraid of being labeled an islamophobe or a racist. I get it. and yes. I thought of that as well...not all SUnnis are like that. But i guess it's following the 'rabbit hole' of sorts. What I mean is (I live in the M.E. and speak to Muslims here, around other parts of the M.E. and the US about these topics...sometimes successfully and sometimes not) But let's say, of course..not alll Sunnis are like tthat. ok.then who are? Well...this gets into the origins of war in child abuse' and IQ. The Shia are less likely...is that because most are raised better and then less likely to adopt the violent teachings of Muhammad? Are the Sunnis less intelligent, or abuse more and thereore stunt IQ potential and thus are drawn to the more violent teachings because of their adverse childhood. There has to be some coorelation and I don'tthink it hurts to plant these questions in the topic of Islam. I mean Brazil is predominately Christian and the murder rate there is astronomical. they kill their own people.... so it can be applied on anyone...just follow the breadcrumbs down and ask...why do some Christians murder...and of which sect (Evanganicals? Mormons? CAtholics? Luterhans, Protestants? etc). It's not to morally excuse the murderer but give some idea of who might be more likely because the Muslims choose conventional terrorism because they live under tyranny or very strict rule, so they have to get 'creative' to let out their rage. In the west and other parts....people are more prone to drug addiction to deal with their adverse childhood or take up hobbies rather than pray 10 times a day on a magic carpet facing Mecca or they go thug on others or they murder, etc There are more 'outlets'. These are just some of my theories... Of course there are degrees of anything. Islam as a whole is a bad ideology, just like Socialism is. Obviously communist socialism is more dangerous than post war social democracy, though, in both, i think there is a slide towards fundamentalism. I guess there is the question of how much of it is the 'religion' vs. the 'culture' The US until recently, I am informed, had a mainly shia muslim population in the form of Persians. They are not economically dysfunctional and tend to be seen as one of America's more benevolent immigrant cohorts. However, is it because they are Shias, (religion) or because they are educated middle class Persians fleeing orthodoxy? (culture) In the UK, most of the muslims in the North are Mirpuri muslims (generally the most inbred, backward of Pakistanis..they make up the bulk of the paedo gangs). The Punjabis (of which Sadiqque Khan, the Sultan of Londonistan is one) are generally considered less troublesome...though even Sadiqque Khan attended a rally to encourage the boycott of Ahmadi Muslims (a sect that specifically repudiates violent Jihad...one of whom was murdered by a mirpuri in Glasgow earlier this year). Regardless, around 65% of muslims in the UK are deobandi (Taliban ideology) or Wahhabi. Sunni and hardly moderate denominations. My view is if you need economic migrants (something I doubt) why even consider any muslims? We know there are many willing non-muslim asians desirous to come to the west and they are virtually GUARANTEED to not have the Islamic baggage. Yes, its discriminatory, but the whole point of borders is precisely to discriminate. Wow thanks for sharing that information. I had no idea about the other groups. That was insightful. To answer your last question with a theory I've tossed around as to why Muslims if you need economic migrants is that anyway the financial ship is sinking and they need a good 'antagonist' when the ships glubs its' last glub because with financial collapse comes war many times. So...to distractthe population from turning to finally blame government....the violent-prone immigrants who are already on the teet of the state (at least the recent migrants) will be a useful distraction and race/baiting device to get the ball rolling. No one NEEDS these migrants. For now it serves the interest of the left to virtue signal and when they let them down financially, they will be scapgoated just like ALL middle Eastern puppets...but they've pretty much puppeted the entire M.E. despite a few select countries that tey are currently working on...now they need to puppet the migrants.
aviet Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Of course there are degrees of anything. Islam as a whole is a bad ideology, just like Socialism is. Obviously communist socialism is more dangerous than post war social democracy, though, in both, i think there is a slide towards fundamentalism. I guess there is the question of how much of it is the 'religion' vs. the 'culture' The US until recently, I am informed, had a mainly shia muslim population in the form of Persians. They are not economically dysfunctional and tend to be seen as one of America's more benevolent immigrant cohorts. However, is it because they are Shias, (religion) or because they are educated middle class Persians fleeing orthodoxy? (culture) In the UK, most of the muslims in the North are Mirpuri muslims (generally the most inbred, backward of Pakistanis..they make up the bulk of the paedo gangs). The Punjabis (of which Sadiqque Khan, the Sultan of Londonistan is one) are generally considered less troublesome...though even Sadiqque Khan attended a rally to encourage the boycott of Ahmadi Muslims (a sect that specifically repudiates violent Jihad...one of whom was murdered by a mirpuri in Glasgow earlier this year). Regardless, around 65% of muslims in the UK are deobandi (Taliban ideology) or Wahhabi. Sunni and hardly moderate denominations. My view is if you need economic migrants (something I doubt) why even consider any muslims? We know there are many willing non-muslim asians desirous to come to the west and they are virtually GUARANTEED to not have the Islamic baggage. Yes, its discriminatory, but the whole point of borders is precisely to discriminate. It is certainly the case that there are cultural aspects to traits of Muslims. Of those who have moved to Britain, as you point out, the main groups that are socially and familialy dysfunctional are those from ethnic groups closer to Afghanis than Indians. These tend to have been 'converted' to Islam in more distant times (over 1,000 years). The Punjabis were often 'converted' much later and were originally Hindus, which is generally benign. So the Punjabis come from a different cultural background. I'm not sure what religion the Western Pakistans adhered to before Islam, but it was probably some form of paganism ... yes, paganism and Zoroastrianism. Pre-Islam it was part of the Sasanian Empire. The pagan cultural origins of Afghanis and West Pakistanis would explain why they are more prone to violence and dysfunction. Pagan societies were incredibly brutal. Much of Arabia was also pagan; and Islam (believe it or not) was actually a progressive reform of such societies. One of the big problems with Islam though is its insistence it is God's final prescription, and thus final and all encompassing. I'm not so familiar with Islam in Africa, but from my study I would say the countries that are most prone to violence are 1) Afghanistan; 2) Iraq; 3) Pakistan. That people such as Peter Sutherland are not suggesting it is a great idea to liberally pour Afghanis and Iraqis into Western societies, I find frightening. And his belief that people from those countries can be taught to embrace by Western customs, insane. This loose/open borders threat is my number one fear for the future. At best the West will end up as a two-tier Sharia and secular system with the way our elected leaders are acting.
aviet Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 To give you an idea of how brutal pagan societies were see below from the works of Pomponius Mela, written in around 40 AD. Thracians live in the Balkans. One onelie Nation of the Thracians inhabites the whole Countrie, termed by sundrie names, and endewed with di|uers dispositions. Some are vtterlie wilde and verie wil|ling to die, namelie the Gets, and that is stablished through sundrie opinions. For some of them thinke, that the soules of them that die, shall returne into their bodies againe. An other sort thinke, that though the soules returne not, yet they die not, but passe into a blessedder state. Others thinke they die, but that dying is better then to liue. And therfore among some of them, the childebeddes are sorrowfull, and they mourne for them that be borne: and contrariwise, the burialles are ioyful, and solemnized with singing and play|ing, as if they were high holie dayes. Not so much as the women, haue cowardlie or faint courages: for they sue e|uen with all their hearts, to be killed vpon the carkases of their dead husbandes, and to be buried with them. And be|cause the men haue many wiues at once, they pleade verie earnestlie before Iudges, which of them may come to that honour. It is imputed to their good behauiour, and it is the greatest ioye to them that can be, to get the vpper hand in this kinde of sute. The rest of the women fall a wéeping, and shréeke out with most bitter complaintes. But such as are minded to comfort them, bring their armour and rit|ches to the Hearse, and there professing themselues ready to compound with the destinie of him that lyeth dead, or else to fight against it, if they could come by it, when neither money nor fighting can take place, continew wooers at the pleasure of the widdowes whome they like of. The May|dens when they shall marrie, are not bestowed at the dis|cretion of their Parents, but are openlie either let out to be married, or else solde. Which of these shall befall vnto them, procéedeth of their beautie and behauiour. The ho|nest and beautifull yéeld a good price: the other are faine to buie husbandes to marrie them. The vse of Wine is to some of them vnknowne: neuerthelesse, when they are making good chéere, as they are sitting about the fires, they cast in a kinde of séede, whose sent prouoketh them to a cer|taine mirth like vnto droonkennesse.Compare to IndiansSome thinke it good to kill no liuing thing, nor to eate any fleshe. Some liue onelie by Fishe: some kill their neighbours and parents, in manner of Sacrifice, before they pine away with age and sicknesse, and thinke it not onelie lawfull, but also godlie, to eate the bow|elles of them when they haue killed them. But if they bee attached with olde age or sicknesse, they get them out of all companie into the Wildernesse, and there with|out sorrowing for the matter, abide the ende of theyr life.I'm not aware of any contemporary pre-Islamic sources that describe the people of Arabia or Pakistan. Are the Sunnis less intelligent, or abuse more and thereore stunt IQ potential and thus are drawn to the more violent teachings because of their adverse childhood. There has to be some coorelation and I don'tthink it hurts to plant these questions in the topic of Islam. I don't think it can be boiled down to sunni/shia, as the sunni world is so diverse. At one end you have totalitarian Saudi Arabia with their Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice and on the other you have Albania, which has newsreaders reading the news with their huge breasts all but spilling out of their attire. Of course, religion has declined much in Albania, partly due to religion being banned during communism, but even when Albania was more religious, it was very different. Turkey is also sunni and is one of a few countries where prostitution is legal.I think the previous culture before Islam is a major factor and what form of Islam was introduced there is another. I mean Brazil is predominately Christian and the murder rate there is astronomical. they kill their own people.... so it can be applied on anyone...just follow the breadcrumbs down and ask...why do some Christians murder...and of which sect (Evanganicals? Mormons? CAtholics? Luterhans, Protestants? etc). It's not to morally excuse the murderer but give some idea of who might be more likely because the Muslims choose conventional terrorism because they live under tyranny or very strict rule, so they have to get 'creative' to let out their rage. In the west and other parts....people are more prone to drug addiction to deal with their adverse childhood or take up hobbies rather than pray 10 times a day on a magic carpet facing Mecca or they go thug on others or they murder, etc There are more 'outlets'. If you look at South America, the level of crime has a strong correlation with how non-European they country is. In the case of Brazil, over half of the country are non-European and non-far-eastern. Brazil was also the single biggest cross-Atlantic destination of salves. About 5.5 million were taken to Brazil, while only 300,000 were taken to the United States.Correlating homicide rates to non-European population: % European Homicide rate (per 100,000)Guyana: 0.3 17.0 <- Largest component is Indian (Asia)Honduras: 1 84.6 <- Largest component is nativeEl Salvador: 13 64.2 <- Largest component is nativeBolivia: 15 12.1 <- Largest component is nativeVenezuela: 20 62.0 <- Largest component is nativeColombia: 37 27.9 <- Largest component is nativeBrazil: 48 24.6 <- Largest component is blackChile: 89 3.9Argentina: 97 7.6The homicide rate in Muslim countries is not actually that high when compared to other areas outside of Europe, the Anglopshere and the Sinosphere. I think the issue is that the religion locks in certain dysfunction as holy and unchangeable.
DaveR Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 It is certainly the case that there are cultural aspects to traits of Muslims. Of those who have moved to Britain, as you point out, the main groups that are socially and familialy dysfunctional are those from ethnic groups closer to Afghanis than Indians. These tend to have been 'converted' to Islam in more distant times (over 1,000 years). The Punjabis were often 'converted' much later and were originally Hindus, which is generally benign. So the Punjabis come from a different cultural background. I'm not sure what religion the Western Pakistans adhered to before Islam, but it was probably some form of paganism ... yes, paganism and Zoroastrianism. Pre-Islam it was part of the Sasanian Empire. The pagan cultural origins of Afghanis and West Pakistanis would explain why they are more prone to violence and dysfunction. Pagan societies were incredibly brutal. Much of Arabia was also pagan; and Islam (believe it or not) was actually a progressive reform of such societies. One of the big problems with Islam though is its insistence it is God's final prescription, and thus final and all encompassing. I'm not so familiar with Islam in Africa, but from my study I would say the countries that are most prone to violence are 1) Afghanistan; 2) Iraq; 3) Pakistan. That people such as Peter Sutherland are not suggesting it is a great idea to liberally pour Afghanis and Iraqis into Western societies, I find frightening. And his belief that people from those countries can be taught to embrace by Western customs, insane. This loose/open borders threat is my number one fear for the future. At best the West will end up as a two-tier Sharia and secular system with the way our elected leaders are acting. Interesting. I look around europe, and of all the muslim diaspora, the most dysfunctional (at least in violence and terror aspects) appear to be the North Africa 'magrebis' living in France. The least, the Turks resident in Germany. However, again, I dont know how much of the problems with muslims in France is due to their socialist labour laws creating totally un-integrated ghettos, fermenting problems.
Guest Gee Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 I'm pretty ignorant on religion but I don't think I would be wrong when I say that you can not be a Christian and commit a murder (6th commandment) yet you can be a Muslum and commit a murder (Quaran = Do as Mohammad did x 91, Mohammad's life is detailed in the Sira, Mohammad murders thus you can be Muslum and murder). If you havn't already check out Dr Bill Warner's work on Islam, I've made a topic with a bunch of links to podcasts, videos and books here.
regevdl Posted June 24, 2016 Author Posted June 24, 2016 To give you an idea of how brutal pagan societies were see below from the works of Pomponius Mela, written in around 40 AD. Thracians live in the Balkans. One onelie Nation of the Thracians inhabites the whole Countrie, termed by sundrie names, and endewed with di|uers dispositions. Some are vtterlie wilde and verie wil|ling to die, namelie the Gets, and that is stablished through sundrie opinions. For some of them thinke, that the soules of them that die, shall returne into their bodies againe. An other sort thinke, that though the soules returne not, yet they die not, but passe into a blessedder state. Others thinke they die, but that dying is better then to liue. And therfore among some of them, the childebeddes are sorrowfull, and they mourne for them that be borne: and contrariwise, the burialles are ioyful, and solemnized with singing and play|ing, as if they were high holie dayes. Not so much as the women, haue cowardlie or faint courages: for they sue e|uen with all their hearts, to be killed vpon the carkases of their dead husbandes, and to be buried with them. And be|cause the men haue many wiues at once, they pleade verie earnestlie before Iudges, which of them may come to that honour. It is imputed to their good behauiour, and it is the greatest ioye to them that can be, to get the vpper hand in this kinde of sute. The rest of the women fall a wéeping, and shréeke out with most bitter complaintes. But such as are minded to comfort them, bring their armour and rit|ches to the Hearse, and there professing themselues ready to compound with the destinie of him that lyeth dead, or else to fight against it, if they could come by it, when neither money nor fighting can take place, continew wooers at the pleasure of the widdowes whome they like of. The May|dens when they shall marrie, are not bestowed at the dis|cretion of their Parents, but are openlie either let out to be married, or else solde. Which of these shall befall vnto them, procéedeth of their beautie and behauiour. The ho|nest and beautifull yéeld a good price: the other are faine to buie husbandes to marrie them. The vse of Wine is to some of them vnknowne: neuerthelesse, when they are making good chéere, as they are sitting about the fires, they cast in a kinde of séede, whose sent prouoketh them to a cer|taine mirth like vnto droonkennesse. Compare to Indians Some thinke it good to kill no liuing thing, nor to eate any fleshe. Some liue onelie by Fishe: some kill their neighbours and parents, in manner of Sacrifice, before they pine away with age and sicknesse, and thinke it not onelie lawfull, but also godlie, to eate the bow|elles of them when they haue killed them. But if they bee attached with olde age or sicknesse, they get them out of all companie into the Wildernesse, and there with|out sorrowing for the matter, abide the ende of theyr life. I'm not aware of any contemporary pre-Islamic sources that describe the people of Arabia or Pakistan. I don't think it can be boiled down to sunni/shia, as the sunni world is so diverse. At one end you have totalitarian Saudi Arabia with their Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice and on the other you have Albania, which has newsreaders reading the news with their huge breasts all but spilling out of their attire. Of course, religion has declined much in Albania, partly due to religion being banned during communism, but even when Albania was more religious, it was very different. Turkey is also sunni and is one of a few countries where prostitution is legal. I think the previous culture before Islam is a major factor and what form of Islam was introduced there is another. If you look at South America, the level of crime has a strong correlation with how non-European they country is. In the case of Brazil, over half of the country are non-European and non-far-eastern. Brazil was also the single biggest cross-Atlantic destination of salves. About 5.5 million were taken to Brazil, while only 300,000 were taken to the United States. Correlating homicide rates to non-European population: % European Homicide rate (per 100,000) Guyana: 0.3 17.0 <- Largest component is Indian (Asia) Honduras: 1 84.6 <- Largest component is native El Salvador: 13 64.2 <- Largest component is native Bolivia: 15 12.1 <- Largest component is native Venezuela: 20 62.0 <- Largest component is native Colombia: 37 27.9 <- Largest component is native Brazil: 48 24.6 <- Largest component is black Chile: 89 3.9 Argentina: 97 7.6 The homicide rate in Muslim countries is not actually that high when compared to other areas outside of Europe, the Anglopshere and the Sinosphere. I think the issue is that the religion locks in certain dysfunction as holy and unchangeable. and the rabbit hole gets deeper. fascinating coorelations. thanks!
regevdl Posted June 24, 2016 Author Posted June 24, 2016 I'm pretty ignorant on religion but I don't think I would be wrong when I say that you can not be a Christian and commit a murder (6th commandment) yet you can be a Muslum and commit a murder (Quaran = Do as Mohammad did x 91, Mohammad's life is detailed in the Sira, Mohammad murders thus you can be Muslum and murder). If you havn't already check out Dr Bill Warner's work on Islam, I've made a topic with a bunch of links to podcasts, videos and books here. Right. something Stefan told me when I called in one time and he actually mentioned it to another caller was that religion magnifies what's already in the person. So a person with an unresolved adverse childhood who finds religion is likely to go to the violent sects of that religion. Those who are more peaceful or raised more peacefully or healed from trauma are likely to find the more peaceful parts of religion. That really stuck with me. Because of course we know there are 1.6billion muslims but not many are actualy acting out the murders they have a 'free pass' to commit....they aren't cashing in on that 'priveledge' so to speak. I will say then you have the next layer of those who endorse it and then those who actually commit the act. Thanks for the source!
Guest Gee Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 Right. something Stefan told me when I called in one time and he actually mentioned it to another caller was that religion magnifies what's already in the person. So a person with an unresolved adverse childhood who finds religion is likely to go to the violent sects of that religion. Those who are more peaceful or raised more peacefully or healed from trauma are likely to find the more peaceful parts of religion. That really stuck with me. Because of course we know there are 1.6billion muslims but not many are actualy acting out the murders they have a 'free pass' to commit....they aren't cashing in on that 'priveledge' so to speak. I will say then you have the next layer of those who endorse it and then those who actually commit the act. Thanks for the source! You are most welcome, Again, I am very ignorant on the topic of religion but I do think, for what it is worth, that you are right. Something which just occured to me (and my thanks to you for provoking the thought) is this..... (I'm paraphrasing Dr Warner from memory, it'll be off a touch) Islam as a religion failed, it gathered only 750 followers in 10 years and then later transmorphed into a political system which spread by the sword, the political system of Islam was very sucessful. And if you want to spread Islam, you kill people! If you want to spread Islam you need to raise soilders. Christianity, by in large, spread by mouth. So if you want to spread Christianity you need to sell it! If you want to spread Christianity you need to raise salesmen! (more peacefully). So looking at Islam it is unsuprising that there is so much in there which allows for the abuse of women and children because this grew you the soilders you need to spread Islam. You then have a larger pool of people with said murderous predalictions from which to draw upon. (The more I think about it I swear this isn't my thought, this I think is Stefan's).
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