Communication skills (or lack of thereof)

[SafetyDance]

Hello FDR community, first time poster here.

 

I have a problem that (as I presume) will sound trivial to you, but is a real drag to me.

I'm rather a smart guy (according to some), but there is one thing that stands between me and my proffessional and personal success. It's the ability to communicate with other people efficiently. To be more precise transferring thoughts into understandable sentences is a real struggle, and I generally dont sound strong/convincing (for a lack of better word). This has influence over my ability to 'sell' myself and has reflection in the amount of money I make (even though I'm an
engineer I dont make as much as my more talkative friends from university). Even writing this post took me a truck-load of time.

I'm not a native english speaker, and taking into account that I've read a lot of good english books (shout out to Stef!), I have a lot to share with the people around me. But there is a little use of knowledge if you dont know how to share it (and it's frustrating too!). I asked my most charismatic friend how to deal with it and I did'nt get satisfactory answer,  I did'nt want to google it out to avoid this coaching bullcrap, if theres anyone i'd turn to, is you guys. Do you have any tips? books? Any Wonder Cure besides going out to people and talking more?

PS.
the problem seems to be a little more prevalent in my native language. So this might have something to do with the people I listen to during the day.

regs,
SafetyDance
 

[dsayers]

Hello, SafetyDance. *fights urge to have good humor with username* Thank you for sharing your vulnerability. I'd like to try and help. My overarching impression of your post is that you editorialize a lot. This is not judgement as I have been SO guilty of this in the past and very much so present day. Allow me to critique if I may to show you how I mean.

 

I have a problem that (as I presume) will sound trivial to you, but is a real drag to me.

Why do you presume one's response? You are effectively pushing them out of a conversation you are purporting to start with them. This is not an attractive behavior. It also minimizes your own value. Which to me signals a lack of self-knowledge.

 

I'm rather a smart guy (according to some)

If you are indeed smart, then to say so would just be stating a fact. There's nothing wrong with celebrating your strengths. Refusing to do so except by proxy is also a signal of a lack of self-knowledge.

 

The signalling a lack of self-knowledge is important for two reasons. The first being that you might fail to attract quality people. The second is that you will likely attract abusers, social vampires, and other unsavory people. This is also one of those things that I continue to struggle with. Because even if you have self-knowledge and you achieved it by processing childhood trauma, you can engage in bad habits such as these. Does that make sense?

 

How much self-knowledge do you have? How much did you have to make yourself small in order to survive as a child? Would you say that you lack self-confidence? At least with regards to communicating? When you do choose to communicate with somebody, what concerns do you have in general?

[SafetyDance]

 

My overarching impression of your post is that you editorialize a lot.

I indeed do I wrote the original post down in a txt file, edited it, copied to browser, edited it again. I'll try to contain myself.

 

 

This is not an attractive behavior. It also minimizes your own value. Which to me signals a lack of self-knowledge.

I legitimately did not know that. Thanks a lot dude. I made my assumption in the statement that you quoted because most people I meet have no such problem like mine, and I thought this would be especially true for FDR community. I mean c'mon, a grown up dude who does not know how to speak/communicate. Ridiculous.

 

 

the signalling a lack of self-knowledge is important for two reasons. The first being that you might fail to attract quality people. The second is that you will likely attract abusers, social vampires, and other unsavory people.

This explains why there is no quality people, and why I am where I am in my life.

 

 

How much self-knowledge do you have? (...)

Up until now I thought that I have a lot, you showed me that I need to study more. A cold bucket of reality is always welcome.

 

 

How much did you have to make yourself small in order to survive as a child?

Two things pop to my mind:

1. I vaguely remember being belittled in my early childhood (being called stupid, worthless etc.) I do things rather slow and my mother thought I was retarded mentally challenged (George Carlin FTW), and she would do me a favor by hastening me in an aggressive manner.

2. My high school was a little like those asian or south american prisons from those documentaries about drug smugglers that got caught (i.e. filled with effed up people with no future). I had no group of my own so I had to stick with group of rejects/punks, belittle myself and act like a jackass to avoid bullying. Not proud of how I dealt with things back then.

 

(...) what concerns do you have in general?

 

Yes I would definetly say that I lack confidence especially when communicating, but also in social situations when surrounded by people I don't (or barely) know.

 

What am I concerned with? It might sound weird but first thing that popped to my mind, when I asked myself this question, is that my interlocutors would physically attack me if I offend them.

After giving it some though, I think it would be more accurate to say that I'm afraid of being ridiculed if I say something stupid. The funny thing though is that I end up saying stupid s**t because I'm incapacitated by fear and can't think straight.

[Carl Green]

I asked my most charismatic friend...

 

 

Try finding someone who you see as a lot closer to how you are as a person, but also overcoming things in the ways that you'd like.

 

Someone that's super charismatic would probably have a very hard time being able to put themselves in your shoes and be able to give you the advice you're looking for.

[dsayers]

So much to reply to. I'll just include my reply in bold if that's alright.

 

I indeed do I wrote the original post down in a txt file, edited it, copied to browser, edited it again. I'll try to contain myself.

That's not what I meant by editorialize. In your opening post, you stated that you have a problem. This is a concise communication of an idea. Then, you said that it will probably sound trivial to your audience. Unless you believe that your audience is incapable of drawing their own conclusions, there is no benefit to drawing conclusions for them. THIS is what I meant about editorializing: Stepping away from facts in order to steer your audience's reception or reaction. Does that make sense?

 

I made my assumption in the statement that you quoted because most people I meet have no such problem like mine

How do you know? Before now, did you express this problem to others? What if others feel the same way and just aren't communicating it and/or are covering it up?

 

and I thought this would be especially true for FDR community

Why? The FDR community are human beings same as everybody else. FDR's work has encompassed a lot in the realm of childhood trauma and peaceful parenting. So if anything, I think you'd be more likely to find it within the community. Or at the very least, those who have recovered/are recovering from it. This is another example of you pushing others out of the conversation. So it could be that your issue with communication stems from automatically seeing yourself as inferior to others. That's not good!

 

I mean c'mon, a grown up dude who does not know how to speak/communicate. Ridiculous.

I don't find it to be worthy of ridicule at all. You speak as if this is a flaw in you, but are you connected with the ways in which such a flaw has no evolutionary explanation? Which tells me that this was inflicted upon you. If that were true, how would that make you feel? Especially when you consider the ways in which it is crippling you.

 

Up until now I thought that I have a lot, you showed me that I need to study more. A cold bucket of reality is always welcome.

I admire your commitment to the truth. I'm the same way and sometimes it feels like it's such a rare quality. Which hurts me because for me, it is a requisite I have for the people in my life. Both a willingness to accept and give such challenges.

 

Two things pop to my mind:

1. I vaguely remember being belittled in my early childhood (being called stupid, worthless etc.) I do things rather slow and my mother thought I was retarded mentally challenged (George Carlin FTW), and she would do me a favor by hastening me in an aggressive manner.

How do you know that what she did was a favor? This thread is you sharing a limitation that effectively isolates you from other human beings. This doesn't sound like a favor to me. Also, you mentioned "in an aggressive manner." Are you comfortable sharing what this looked like? Do you think that aggression was the only way to accomplish her stated goal? Do you accept that parents voluntarily create a positive obligation to nurture and protect their child until such a time as they can do so without their parents? If so, do you think treating you with aggression is in line with this commitment?

 

2. My high school was a little like those asian or south american prisons from those documentaries about drug smugglers that got caught (i.e. filled with effed up people with no future). I had no group of my own so I had to stick with group of rejects/punks, belittle myself and act like a jackass to avoid bullying. Not proud of how I dealt with things back then.

An analogy if I may: When somebody points a gun at your head, you're not exactly responsible for your behaviors. I'm guessing that you didn't choose to be in such a hostile environment. Who would? I'm really sorry that was your experience. My point is that while not being proud of that, do take care as to not beat yourself over it as you were doing what you needed to do to survive in an awful situation.

 

What am I concerned with? It might sound weird but first thing that popped to my mind, when I asked myself this question, is that my interlocutors would physically attack me if I offend them.

After giving it some though, I think it would be more accurate to say that I'm afraid of being ridiculed if I say something stupid. The funny thing though is that I end up saying stupid s**t because I'm incapacitated by fear and can't think straight.

My fiancee suffered from something similar. Oh how I despise the self-fulfilling prophecy! I'm sorry you are victim to it. Who instilled in you the belief/fear that you would be attacked if you offended somebody? Also, I can relate to fearing looking stupid. For me, my parents never modeled that failure was acceptable (despite they themselves getting a divorce). I had become a "perfectionist" as a result. Later in life, I learned that there's no harm in appearing foolish from time to time. In fact, vulnerability is a good way to lower the defenses in others and endear them. For example, it seems you approach people as if you are inferior to them. If you were to witness one engage in a blunder, wouldn't you then feel more comfortable interacting with them since you've essentially received confirmation that they're "only human" too?

[SafetyDance]

@Carl Green

You're right. And that's why I slowly gravitate away from my circle of friends. The flipside of that is the fact that (for now) I have a hard time finding quality people. On the other hand, I'm not really trying all that hard. I'm kinda shut-in person and that does not work for me verry well.

 

 

@dsayers

 

Ad editorialization

Yeah it makes sense. I might have adopted this trait from my parents who are control freaks.

 

 

How do you know? Before now, did you express this problem to others? What if others feel the same way and just aren't communicating it and/or are covering it up?

You are right I didnt express this problem to anyone. Far-fetched assumption on my side. Another thing that I was not aware of.

 

 

How do you know that what she did was a favor? This thread is you sharing a limitation that effectively isolates you from other human beings. This doesn't sound like a favor to me. Also, you mentioned "in an aggressive manner." Are you comfortable sharing what this looked like? Do you think that aggression was the only way to accomplish her stated goal? Do you accept that parents voluntarily create a positive obligation to nurture and protect their child until such a time as they can do so without their parents? If so, do you think treating you with aggression is in line with this commitment?

My bad, I mentioned it as sarcasm, and forgot to add the quotation symbols. I actually dont feel it was a favor at all.

 

As for the aggression, if I was doing something too slow for her, she would grab the supposed thing that I was manipulating/doing out of my hands, doing it herself, and calling me names (worthless, stupid etc.) throughout all the time. From time-to-time I would get a thwack in the back of the head in the mean time.

 

No I dont think the aggression was the only way. If I was left alone, unpressurized, stuff would be done anyways; punishments are ineffective, positive encouragement is the only viable option. Years later she said that she was doing all this stuff so that I would be more quick/witty/cunning/less guilible (my guess: as if she would try to protect me from her own past and perpetrators, if that makes sense).

 

I agree with your last question, and I think that their behavior was counter-productive. Dont want to justify my parents but they are simple people from rural areas, so their methods are the way they are.

I live in one of the post-communist countries and all those years of communism/social realism (or whatever they wish to call this BS) demoralized people (not only in the childrearing department).
 

 

 

An analogy if I may: When somebody points a gun at your head, you're not exactly responsible for your behaviors. I'm guessing that you didn't choose to be in such a hostile environment. Who would? I'm really sorry that was your experience. My point is that while not being proud of that, do take care as to not beat yourself over it as you were doing what you needed to do to survive in an awful situation.

I dont beat myself over that. Its just something that happened and I had to take lesson from. Now that I'm different person, my jimmies remain unrustled. Nowadays I would hand matters differently and I simply dissaprove my past attitude.

 

 

 

 

Who instilled in you the belief/fear that you would be attacked if you offended somebody?

first of all my parents. One thing that I should clarify, that I just remembered, is that I talked really slow, and my mother would react in a way that you already know (talk faster, you idiot!).

Secondly, I remember there used to be a kid who had some serious issues, he took offence from even harmless stuff, long story short, one time when I was calling my buddy by his nickname, the said idiot-kid was nearby and "in the line of fire", he thought I'm looking at, and making fun of him and attacked me. But this was just a single episode and I'm not convinced it affected me all that much (I'm not sure if this was even worth mentioning).

 

 

My fiancee suffered from something similar. Oh how I despise the self-fulfilling prophecy! I'm sorry you are victim to it. Who instilled in you the belief/fear that you would be attacked if you offended somebody? Also, I can relate to fearing looking stupid. For me, my parents never modeled that failure was acceptable (despite they themselves getting a divorce). I had become a "perfectionist" as a result. Later in life, I learned that there's no harm in appearing foolish from time to time. In fact, vulnerability is a good way to lower the defenses in others and endear them. For example, it seems you approach people as if you are inferior to them. If you were to witness one engage in a blunder, wouldn't you then feel more comfortable interacting with them since you've essentially received confirmation that they're "only human" too?

 

Yeah, it's just something I have to work on, and there is no workaround. The good thing though, is that expressing my problem, and this conversation itself, forced me to re-thing things more deeply. I think this might have re-connected several neuron pathways.

 

I cant deny that this has been the most fruitful conversation I had for quite some time, and at this point I'm really grateful for the invention of the internet. What a good time to live in.

 

PS.

I'm sorry to hear that you had to go through a break-up of your family. Hope you dealt with the collateral.

[dsayers]

Yeah it makes sense. I might have adopted this trait from my parents who are control freaks.

Same here. You're not alone.

 

As for the aggression, if I was doing something too slow for her, she would grab the supposed thing that I was manipulating/doing out of my hands, doing it herself, and calling me names (worthless, stupid etc.) throughout all the time. From time-to-time I would get a thwack in the back of the head in the mean time.

OMG, I am so sorry! I think the aspect of child abuse that pisses me off the most is the way parents punish their child for their own failures. Your intellect could be directly tied to her health, habits while pregnant, and of course treatment of you. How can you get better at anything if you're not permitted to do it yourself without being able to practice because she'd rob you of the opportunity? My father infatilized me like this.

 

No I dont think the aggression was the only way. If I was left alone, unpressurized, stuff would be done anyways; punishments are ineffective, positive encouragement is the only viable option. Years later she said that she was doing all this stuff so that I would be more quick/witty/cunning/less guilible (my guess: as if she would try to protect me from her own past and perpetrators, if that makes sense).

Yeah, that's why I made sure to ask if you think it's the only way. Because even if what she claims was true, it's insufficient. Have you talked to her about this at all in the present? Do you think she could ever come to feel remorse for what she's done and/or sincerely admit fault? Where is your father in all of this?

 

Dont want to justify my parents but they are simple people from rural areas, so their methods are the way they are.

You're right; That doesn't justify it. If somebody got behind the wheel of a car and slammed into your house, their lack of knowledge wouldn't be an acceptable excuse. The moment they decided to get pregnant, they made themselves responsible for knowing how to do it right. There's no undertaking more delicate or potentially more destructive than raising a brand new human being. It sounds as if they put more effort into figuring out how to work their cell phone than they did figuring out how to raise a child

 

first of all my parents. One thing that I should clarify, that I just remembered, is that I talked really slow, and my mother would react in a way that you already know (talk faster, you idiot!).

Yeah, nothing promotes fluid communication like obstructing the communicator and inspiring them to be self-conscious about communicating. /sarcasm

 

I cant deny that this has been the most fruitful conversation I had for quite some time, and at this point I'm really grateful for the invention of the internet. What a good time to live in.

Indeed. Some of the best people I've ever known I only knew thanks to the internet. Thank you for the kind feedback. I'm really glad that I've been of some value to you.

 

PS.

I'm sorry to hear that you had to go through a break-up of your family. Hope you dealt with the collateral.

Mostly, yes. Unfortunately, when we're triggered, sometimes we revert to old habits even if we've processed them. It hurts most when such a thing costs you the best things in your life because somebody leaves you behind when you needed them the most. Even though when the tables were turned, you didn't turn your back on them. Never underestimate the destructive power of child abuse and the way it can damage even people who are healed. We're always one bad decision away from being victimized by them all over again.

[SafetyDance]

 

Do you think she could ever come to feel remorse for what she's done and/or sincerely admit fault? Where is your father in all of this?

No I dont think she ever did. During one conversation this came out as a side track and she basically said that I was never spanked, cause I never made any trouble. This is true for late childhood, however I remember being spanked in my earlier years. She lied, forgot or I just overreact? So to cut it short, no she did not admit fault. I did not go out of my way and bring up the conversation by myself; why? I dont exactly know, probably because I'm avoidant personality type, plus having experience with solving disptes with her (religious-based), I dont think talking about the spanking would bring me anywhere, although I'm afraid I'll have to confront her sooner than later (when feeling of obligation towards personal consistency overgrows my avoidancy ).

Where's my father in all of that? Well, he's a workaholic, so 90% of my waking time (that's not an overexagerration) he was absent.

 

At this point I feel like I'm, bitching cause I bet many people had it worse, and overall my parents did pretty good job, but damn, this invisible wall separating me from other people is killing me.

[dsayers]

She lied, forgot or I just overreact?

I disagree. Sure it's possible she lied, perhaps even that she forgot. But there's not a chance that you overreacted. You're talking about a time when you were smaller than her and dependent upon her for your survival. Assaulting you was essentially a death threat at the biological level. Unless you unleashed a nuke just to eliminate her specifically, I don't think anything you did could've been described as an overreaction to being issued a death threat by somebody with an enormous power disparity over you.

 

probably because I'm avoidant personality type

I think this is deceptive language for the purpose of protecting your abusers. More accurate would be "I have been programmed to erase myself for the comfort of my abusers."

 

At this point I feel like I'm, bitching cause I bet many people had it worse

So what? Are rape victims not actually victims because some people actually get murdered? NO. What was done to you was awful not because you win the most-mistreated-human contest, but because it was awful.

 

overall my parents did pretty good job, but damn, this invisible wall separating me from other people is killing me.

"My parents are killing me, but overall did a pretty good job." Doesn't that strike you as contradictory?

 

How do you know? What evidence do you have that they did a pretty good job? If they never assaulted anybody else, isn't that proof that they did a really shitty job?

[SafetyDance]

Yeah you're right I did contradict yourself. It's just hard to think straight with this kind of people around you. I just noticed I tried to put the blame from them to some other factor beyond their reach.

 

This conversation made me thinking and I think I know what might be the problem. I'm not open with other people, this would explain bad communication skills and difficulty establishing deeper relations.