MysterionMuffles Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 Very interesting article on the biological and evolutionary purpose of shyness! Very surprising data to me, I thought it had to do with parents failing to socialize with their children or socializing them with extended family, but I was way off. http://macnamara.ca/portfolio/why-shyness-is-not-a-disorder-or-deficit-in-kids/ 1
Jot Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 Did not read the article yet but how does it disprove that nurture does not have an impact on the development of shyness?
Matthew Ed Moran Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 What is the difference between shyness and fear? 1
MysterionMuffles Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 Did not read the article yet but how does it disprove that nurture does not have an impact on the development of shyness? This is more about the evolutionary function of shyness, which is to express preference for one's own trusted tribe of origin. “Children come with natural instincts to shy away from people that are not in their attachment village and have not been sanctioned by their closest attachments..." "...shyness is an attachment instinct that prevents children from being led by people outside of their village of connection." One could argue that good parenting and socializing well with your children would breed children that are inherently outgoing. But I think despite how much you socialize your children, they still need to be weary of strangers who they can and can not trust, and as the article says, will learn to trust the strangers they see their parents being kind towards. So while some shyness MAY be due to improper parenting, I think it's important to consider this function shyness may play in a child's development. What is the difference between shyness and fear? Shyness = expressing preferences of favourite people Fear = response to any shady behaviour on the part of strangers. As I understand it, shyness is the response of children feeling spotted hiding in the bushes, so to speak. When they hide behind their parents, they want to spend time observing how their parents interact with strangers before they draw their conclusions. Children will only truly fear strangers if those strangers exhibit negative behaviour either toward the parents, children, or other people around them, thus confirming their initial shyness response for them to be cautious around them. Given time, and a positive example of the parents communicating with the stranger, children become less shy around them. Here's a study cited in the article, Matt. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51721428_Shyness_Versus_Social_Phobia_in_US_Youth 1
Matthew Ed Moran Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 Shyness = expressing preferences of favourite people Fear = response to any shady behaviour on the part of strangers. As I understand it, shyness is the response of children feeling spotted hiding in the bushes, so to speak. When they hide behind their parents, they want to spend time observing how their parents interact with strangers before they draw their conclusions. Children will only truly fear strangers if those strangers exhibit negative behaviour either toward the parents, children, or other people around them, thus confirming their initial shyness response for them to be cautious around them. Given time, and a positive example of the parents communicating with the stranger, children become less shy around them. Here's a study cited in the article, Matt. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51721428_Shyness_Versus_Social_Phobia_in_US_Youth That's interesting. From what I've heard Stefan's daughter is outgoing and goes up asking to be friends with strangers. I wonder if this is genetic (since after all she has half the genes of big chatty forehead), or a combination of how she has been modeled to interact with strangers (i.e. assertively, and with the security of knowing her dad is also assertive if she needs help). People (maybe more for introverts), in my experience, tend not to be assertive. If that's true, then I think that would make shyness or aggression the models that the child thinks to use in situations where there is uncertainty. Whereas a child who is aggressively raised, then dropped in daycare, might bully the children around him to create a false sense of security; a shy child will try not to be a nuisance and avoid conflict as best they can. It's just an idea, but I don't have data on this. I also think shy people can mask their insecurity by being witty or funny (which is probably a form of assertion). You actually don't have to say much to be assertive, and if you pick the right moments or say the right thing (my best use of this would be to make a joke when there is tension), you can glide on your shyness more comfortably. I actually remember I would pick moments to make a joke particularly when others were being aggressive towards one another, sort of asserting myself but in a way I was usually sure wouldn't bring conflict towards me. I actually used to ask people to make fun of me when they met me, anticipating that this would lessen conflict in the future. I remember somewhat doing this as early as 6, but more vividly around 10, where I would make fun of my Judaism and tell others they could join in. I remember a joke where I would act like I was obsessed with pennies, and would make my eyes go big and chase one if you threw it (lol). I think it saved me a lot of grief in a way. It was sort of lucky I had that ability, so I sympathize with others who felt no other option than to be shy. I imagine the lack of control feels daunting at best, and terrifying at worst. Thanks for the article and study I will probably bookmark it.
dsayers Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 I'm no expert, so by no means am I saying that I'm right. That said, I am motivated to provide a great deal of push back on this article. I think that for a TRAUMATIZED child, experiencing APPREHENSION towards meeting new people would follow. shyness is an attachment instinct that prevents children from being led by people outside of their village of connection Yet if you leave a child free to roam, they will wander off. Because--and I think this point is antithetical to the article's position--children are curious and as new lifeforms in this established world, are trying to learn about their world, indeed for survival's sake. part of nature’s design to ensure that a child’s closest attachments will have the most influence over them This assertion seems poorly thought out. The only way a total stranger will have influence over a child greater than their caregivers is if the one they have with their caregivers is actually THAT BAD. This is why it seems to me as if the article is describing traumatized children instead of human nature. a baby will start to show clear preferences for their favourite people, and greater signs of upset when separated from them This is true, but does nothing to normalize shyness. "This is safe" will always win out over "this is untested" in terms of ANY living creature's preferences. Untested might kill us! Safe has been vetted. This is why robbery victims feel so violated for example. Pity the article didn't use "upset when separated" to segue into speaking out against daycare and government schools. Humans are social creatures. Social outwardness serves an evolutionary purpose. A healthy experience with their parents is all a baby needs to accept that humans are likely trustworthy. Shyness is a prejudice and would indicate prior trauma at the hands of human beings. 4
brucethecollie Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I would tend to agree with Dsayers. My daughter had to have blood drawn as an 8 month old infant to discover the source of a life-threatening allergy. The clinicians couldn't draw her blood and after an hour I had them stop trying. They came to our house and took another hour "finding the vein". After this experience, my daughter was extremely shy with people. I didn't push her or shame her about it but patiently let her learn to trust strangers again. After 3 years she went back to how I remembered her before 8 months and now she is 7 and one of the most social and communicative children I've ever known. My own shyness didn't exist until I went to school without yet knowing the language. I learned quickly as children do but that seemed to have been the beginning of it. I was labeled mentally retarded soon after that until they tested me, told me I tested gifted and then left me alone. But before testing me they had me pulled from classes to be with children with learning problems and told me not to tell my parents. I got less shy with age due to major effort but it wasn't easy. My son has a little bit of shyness now. It started when he was 5 or so. He is 7 now. I don't know why he is dealing with it but it has helped him to hear what he was like as a toddler (not shy at all). I hope that giving him opportunities to socialize on his own terms will help. He seems very intelligent and critical. He doesn't forgive easily. So the few times he has seen adults behaving badly (like the woman that spanked her son at a playground or the man that threw his beer bottle in our driveway or his uncle who tried to force him to give him a hug) has made him a little skeptical of people he doesn't know. He waits to get to know people before trusting them and he likes to know my reaction to them before he speaks to them. My husband wasn't shy until he was moved (undocumented) to the US from Mexico as a 10 year old. I do tend to think something sparks shyness. Unless I'm defining shyness incorrectly. Either way, I don't tell my kids who to trust because I'm not all knowing and children tend to have very good instincts about people. 2
dsayers Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 My own shyness didn't exist until I went to school without yet knowing the language. I learned quickly as children do but that seemed to have been the beginning of it. I was labeled mentally retarded soon after that until they tested me, told me I tested gifted and then left me alone. But before testing me they had me pulled from classes to be with children with learning problems and told me not to tell my parents. I am so sorry to hear this! I can sympathize. About two weeks into Kindergarten, I remember all these adults treating me like I was an alien. I was then put in a room with a very cold woman and submitted to testing. At which point it was determined that I was just short of being a genius (I'm told I was walking and talking at 9 months and multiplying and dividing at age 3). This was very isolating as it set me apart from what would have been my peers. The district eventually put together a special gifted and talented program that shipped several students in the district to a particular elementary school (not mine) for one day a week. This was isolating on multiple fronts. Then in junior high, there was a proper gifted and talented track. But because of all the isolation and my resultant shyness, combined with the fact that we were poor living in a preppy suburb, I was an outcast among them also. More isolation The sad part about it all is that outsiders look at this stuff and praise the school district for such measures. My interpretation is that it is a veiled confession that lumping children by AGE is a flawed premise, even if lumping them against their will was a valid precursor for real education. I'm somewhat embarrassed that I recognize that contradiction; I'd hate for those schools to take credit for my intellectual capabilities! Meanwhile, I got awful behavioral ratings throughout my schooling because I absorbed the information so quickly, it was dull as hell sitting around waiting for it to get explained and re-explained to everybody else. There actually came a point in elementary school where they lumped me in with the "retards" and behavioral outcasts. There was no curriculum there. Just heightened domination and will-breaking. Fuck government schools! /rant 3
MysterionMuffles Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 Hmm, well I'll keep probing the subject through the citations to get a better understanding article before I form a fully coherent response to yous guys. Particularly the study they linked, when I get the chance to read the full paper, I will see what else I can learn about shyness at least according to those scientists, and see how it matches up or diverges from what I've come to understand through the psychologists that Stef has interviewed. 1
cherapple Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 Here's something I wrote about shyness for Self-Knowledge Daily: "Shyness: The Hypocritical Myth" 4
Toys4 Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 Thanks for the post. I've been a shy person as long as I can remember. I never really thought too much about it until I started watching FD radio and other self helping avenues. I come from a background of physical, emotional abuse and a very hostile environment, just like many of you. That's the start.
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