Why be rational? Why be or do anyhting at all? Desire vs Sel-Rules

[Anuojat]

I am asking this because recently i had an apphipheny (spelling?) about my anger and reason why i have been so struggling with motivation, is because as kid and always i did good rational things for other sake.

 

IN THE PAST, (especially childhood and teens):

Why be good? Because others. Why be good? Rules. Why be rational? Because unhappiness otherwise and because its hurts OTHERS.

 

So i find myself in almost ego-death'esque situation with my own beliefs about myself. Why should i do or be anything or anyone?

 

Why simply not lie, be crazy, insane, and contradictionary? WHY does it really matter what i want?

 

What’s the difference between my preferences and anyone else? Why shouldn’t i just take other peoples desire as my own?

 

Yes, this is also about setting or not setting Rules for yourself. And also about the value of myself value if any of my preferences?

 

Why should i prefer anything at all? And is this question itself contradiction on some level?

 

Do i "prefer" truth over falsehood? I do or maybe i say i don’t. Maybe i say gibberish. Then what?

 

Does it all come down to preference?

 

 

And if so... why do i feel like that’s an arbitrary/subjective standard and thus meaningless or exactly the same as anyone else’s opinion or preference?

 

I feel like my preferences do not have any value objectively. I prefer health? I prefer truth? I prefer to be moral and kind and good? Who cares about that?

 

 

PS. Yeah... one could say that i sound and come off as bit of nihilistic... but that’s empty one feels when finally your shrugs off your FALSE reason to be X Y or Z.

When false-self goes, when "respect" for parents complete evaporates. When values placed and forced in me by abusers vanish.

[Will Torbald]

I know this sounds like it ignores the arguments you're making, but you really have to get in touch with your base instincts. To fumble into philosophical argumentations without satiating the animal within is like wanting to go to the top floor of a building by exploding the base. In my experience your kind of angst comes from that deficiency of primal satisfaction.

[thecurrentyear]

Spell check, bro.

[dsayers]

I'm really sorry that you were so destroyed that you can experience this level of identity crisis and/or lack of purpose/direction. I'm 40 now it wasn't long ago that I felt like life was over. Then I found that to not be true at all and that the most wonderful things in the world were MINE and because I had worked so hard to earn them. Then I had them all stripped away from me. I had every reason to quit, give up, yield to unhealthy impulses, etc. But the fact is that there IS a tomorrow. There is more to come. This is why you don't throw it away on self-destructive behaviors. Which living inconsistently will do.

 

I think the main problem here is that as you've identified, you've been living for others. Were this not the case, the fact that your preferences have no objective value (no such thing BTW) wouldn't bother you because you'd be living for YOU. This is why self-knowledge is so critical. It makes all of this easier to prevent, survive, and maneuver within. I would wager that the source of the damage that has led to you where you find yourself was inflicted upon you by your parents. Where self-knowledge almost always invariably begins. Have you connected with that? With how you feel about that? That the very people who were supposed to build you up crippled you to the point where building yourself up is such a challenge that forces to have to play catch up first?

 

I'd be interested in hearing more when you have your thoughts a bit more gathered. It was hard to read between the lines as to what you're actually looking for.

[AccuTron]

Spell check, bro.

The beginning might have been far enough off for a spell check to not get it.  It's Epiphany.  (Which was the name of my Catholic elementary school.  I never knew one iota of what it meant.)

 

What caught my attention was that the beginning was "app" and we know that word (formerly an abbreviation) has become a dominant word in the modern world.  I wonder if there's a "modern citizen" subtle psychological effect at play.

[thecurrentyear]

The beginning might have been far enough off for a spell check to not get it.  It's Epiphany.  (Which was the name of my Catholic elementary school.  I never knew one iota of what it meant.)

 

What caught my attention was that the beginning was "app" and we know that word (formerly an abbreviation) has become a dominant word in the modern world.  I wonder if there's a "modern citizen" subtle psychological effect at play.

 

Not just that, the title too.

[Anuojat]

I know this sounds like it ignores the arguments you're making, but you really have to get in touch with your base instincts. To fumble into philosophical argumentations without satiating the animal within is like wanting to go to the top floor of a building by exploding the base. In my experience your kind of angst comes from that deficiency of primal satisfaction.

I think i get what you mean... are you saying there is some simple desire missing to be filled up?

 

Like the Marslowes Hiearchy of needs?

 

I felt as if all these questions lead up to my own personal preferance of some level. Are you saying figuring it out requires this "primal satrisfaction"?

 

I'm really sorry that you were so destroyed that you can experience this level of identity crisis and/or lack of purpose/direction. I'm 40 now it wasn't long ago that I felt like life was over. Then I found that to not be true at all and that the most wonderful things in the world were MINE and because I had worked so hard to earn them. Then I had them all stripped away from me. I had every reason to quit, give up, yield to unhealthy impulses, etc. But the fact is that there IS a tomorrow. There is more to come. This is why you don't throw it away on self-destructive behaviors. Which living inconsistently will do.

 

I think the main problem here is that as you've identified, you've been living for others. Were this not the case, the fact that your preferences have no objective value (no such thing BTW) wouldn't bother you because you'd be living for YOU. This is why self-knowledge is so critical. It makes all of this easier to prevent, survive, and maneuver within. I would wager that the source of the damage that has led to you where you find yourself was inflicted upon you by your parents. Where self-knowledge almost always invariably begins. Have you connected with that? With how you feel about that? That the very people who were supposed to build you up crippled you to the point where building yourself up is such a challenge that forces to have to play catch up first?

 

I'd be interested in hearing more when you have your thoughts a bit more gathered. It was hard to read between the lines as to what you're actually looking for.

 

I... appriciate your emphaty Dsayers. Though i must say that this identity crisis or i guess near-kinda-like ego death (but not completely as bad) was RESULT of gaining that one final piece of self knowledge, everything else with help of theraphy, NEW friends and philosofy from Stef and others had already been achieved. My biases, my tendancy towards seeking servitude to people and my tentandy to easily fall into comfortable fog of forgetting important daily activities that would lead me to uncomfortable things like job or education. My loneliness and my fear, my twofaced totally not mutual nor reprocitical "relationship" with my parents. Theyre own pasts and reason why they did what they did all solved.

 

Except for this last one which was the LACK of value over my own preferances and seeking persmission from others to live (and do XYZ). And as i said... this temporary feeling nihilism about morality or rationality itself. Why be rational or good if my mom or dad doesnt say its good or therer is a reason? Why is not "my own benefit" just selfish and relative same as everyone else and so on.

 

I do feel lot better today however, not that i dont got serious work to do to fill my life up with more stuff and KEEP GOING as you said. And yes i have connected over those feelings and parts (IFS style) over the 3 years. And this year has been the most total anti-fog connection ive managed where there is actual intergration with the child left behind in prison and with even my "sopposedly" evil part whcih was merely justified anger (and masculinity    ) labeled as a villain.

 

That being said however, i do still "feel" and think that if my preferances arent objective or based on something objective that it doesnt make sense nor do i feel motivated.

For instance i have preferance called "eating" now eating i ojectively true it exists its an action that living organism all do and so does origin of eating aka hunger.

I have preferance for truth and truth is objective.

 

Now i know these are subjective preferances also in the sense that i could choose to not do them at any given moment and that even though theyre "part of reality or true" thyere not shared by all people AT very least consistently.

 

So that leaves me with the conundrum: Is this very act of reasoning with you and talking trough text preface or something that "neccerily follows" in eating and truth as my preferances? Bauce clearly if i want to talk to you and accurately share ideas/thoguhts i must eat and prefer truth over falsehood.

 

But then... i guess why should i talk with you and other because i want to? I... in my gut there is this STRONG feeling arbitaryness.... of cheapness and of "SO?" Question. So what if i want anything?

 

I am pretty sure self knowledge has been fully achieved... there is no rock unturned in my past and no bias that i dont know of. I think this is GENUINE self curiousity nd curiousity to the world that i sole do not know deep down.

 

Does it matter if i want anyhting at all? Or DO anything at all?

 

I look foward to yuor answer and if you spot some flaws

[dsayers]

Why is not "my own benefit" just selfish

What's wrong with selfish? Every breath you take, you are being selfish. Without YOU, there's nothing else you can do really. Meaning other people will benefit from the ways in which you are selfish. The only people that would try and convince you that selfish is inherently bad are those that benefit from erasing you. Those that care about you will recognize that you are 50% of the two of you. Take this post of mine right here. I'm speaking to you and trying to provide value for you. This is not a selfless act. I'm getting something out of this or else I wouldn't be doing it. That's an inalienable feature of being an organism capable of perishing.

 

I am pretty sure self knowledge has been fully achieved

PLEASE reconsider. It is my opinion that this statement can never be true. For as long as you're alive, the clock is ticking and new experiences--new things to process--are being amassed. Besides, if self-knowledge were "fully achieved," I don't think you could be experiencing this conflict, eh?

[Anuojat]

What's wrong with selfish? Every breath you take, you are being selfish. Without YOU, there's nothing else you can do really. Meaning other people will benefit from the ways in which you are selfish. The only people that would try and convince you that selfish is inherently bad are those that benefit from erasing you. Those that care about you will recognize that you are 50% of the two of you. Take this post of mine right here. I'm speaking to you and trying to provide value for you. This is not a selfless act. I'm getting something out of this or else I wouldn't be doing it. That's an inalienable feature of being an organism capable of perishing.

 

PLEASE reconsider. It is my opinion that this statement can never be true. For as long as you're alive, the clock is ticking and new experiences--new things to process--are being amassed. Besides, if self-knowledge were "fully achieved," I don't think you could be experiencing this conflict, eh?

 

So... people just lambast and equate the word selfish with being parasite? When they themselves most likely are parasite feeding of your (and my) care for being good? Projection then.

 

I... hmmm yeah it sure feels that when you admit right there to me what i already should know that this is not you simple laying down on my feet and doing it all for me the WORD has power because of the FALSE equation with parasite. I guess organism that are parasite want the host to think theyre one too so the parasite can more easily feed on it? :S

 

I... will reconsider. Though i must admit i feel little shame for not picking up such obvious clue about the maybe my PAST is almost completely done and so it feel as if self knowledge has been full achieved. Hrrmmm i think i should havenoticed sooner. And yes this conflict... felt simply like an expression of lack of knowledge humility if you will. Now... i feel tad uncertain.

 

I still want the answer to the question why should i do anything. I feell... ugh i think i feel not same despair as you went trough Dsayers (whatever it was sounds horrid) i think i feel just empty quiet calm. Not the kind of emptyness that is charestiriced by feeling nothing.

 

I think maybe there is self knowledge still to be gained... by aknowlidging that ina weird way i AM waiting for someont to tell me if i hopuld live or do anything at all. Waiting for a permission.

 

I guess what i feel if i say "Ill do what i want and thats reason enough, because i want to. Because i want happiness." Feel as if then i could immidiately say... "And thus if i should do soemhting because i want i can immidiately run roughshot over reason and logic too." As if... having preferances means you can just prefer to ignore logic and ignore reason because there are no SET of rules. "If its ok for me to prefer to live and eat because i want to therefor its ok to prefer whatever including ignoring reaosn and logic if it pelases me." I guess it crux of what i think and feel.

 

This is how i feel. Curious. And weirded out. But ultimately calm curiousity NOT "oh no my life is meaningless for certain!".

[Will Torbald]

I think i get what you mean... are you saying there is some simple desire missing to be filled up?

 

Like the Marslowes Hiearchy of needs?

 

I felt as if all these questions lead up to my own personal preferance of some level. Are you saying figuring it out requires this "primal satrisfaction"?

 

How's your sex life?

[dsayers]

I still want the answer to the question why should i do anything.

I'm not sure I understand the question though. In your opening post, you even asked why should you have preferences. It's autonomic that you have preferences, so I'm not sure where "should" enters into it.

 

i think i feel not same despair as you went trough Dsayers (whatever it was sounds horrid) i think i feel just empty quiet calm.

How do you know? You seem conflicted and it would seem that in this topic, you're seeking answers to numerous questions. These are not traits of somebody who is calm on the meta level.

 

I think maybe there is self knowledge still to be gained... by aknowlidging that ina weird way i AM waiting for someont to tell me if i hopuld live or do anything at all. Waiting for a permission.

So why not give yourself that permission? Since you're used to living for other people (as was I), try this out: Try living for future you. Would future you benefit from you sitting around, being calm and contented, possibly rejecting reason? I think not.

 

I had something of a breakthrough a couple days ago I'd like to share with you. I recently started working out to improve my health, my mind-body connection, my self-care and self-love, and so many other ways I had been failing future me. When my buddy who helped get me into it was going through the basics, he said to me that you want to break a personal record every workout. My immediate emotional reaction was to push back. I wasn't looking to become Sylvester Stallone, just up my health some.

 

Right away, I saw results that suggested I might be a hyper-responder. I'm not used to having genetic gifts (quite the opposite usually), so I wanted to explore that more and decided to push myself a little bit. This mostly manifested by way of increasing reps per set instead of increasing weight and/or swapping out for more challenging exercises in a particular category (such as push, pull, etc). I've been conversing with him the whole time, and even asking about how to know when to step up weight instead of stepping up reps for example. Two workouts ago (four days ago), I swapped out one hinge exercise for another as I felt I wasn't getting enough from it. Sure enough, the next day my hamstrings were sorer in a good way. BUT by time I had gotten to the intervals section of the workout (tail end), I felt I had more in me. I even pushed myself pretty hard during intervals and when all was said and done, I still felt I had more in me. In other words, I felt like I hadn't gotten everything out of the workout that I could have.

 

So the last time I worked out (two days ago), I decided based on my success in swapping out an exercise, that I was going to re-examine my workout. I decided to swap out a couple exercises. I decided I was going to start stepping up and/or adding weight rather than reps. THEN I decided instead of just going to a target rep, I was going to keep going until I got the muscle fatigue you want to shoot for. This was a three stage approach to my limits. Keep in mind the program I'm using is about proper form and steady gains, so I wasn't going "all out" or really risking injury or anything like that. That workout KICKED MY ASS in the best possible way.

 

But the point is in what it did for me mentally and in turn emotionally. This was me exploring my limits instead of deliberately holding back for comfort's sake. It felt so damn good! Like you, I had spent my life living for others. So even once I felt "free," I still kept myself small out of habit. I was exploring my limits or fully applying myself. As a result, the me of today is worse off than I could've been. So now, I'm doing what I can to make sure future me (even the me of tomorrow) has the best possible set up. It's a way to help make sure my abusers no longer harm me in the present. On a side note, yesterday, I felt great. It didn't feel like I had destroyed myself or anything. I got all of the benefits and no unsavory side effects. So today, I will continue this new "trend" and continue to work as hard as I can to give future me all that I can because I love him and he deserves better. How about you?

[Anuojat]

I'm not sure I understand the question though. In your opening post, you even asked why should you have preferences. It's autonomic that you have preferences, so I'm not sure where "should" enters into it.

 

How do you know? You seem conflicted and it would seem that in this topic, you're seeking answers to numerous questions. These are not traits of somebody who is calm on the meta level.

 

So why not give yourself that permission? Since you're used to living for other people (as was I), try this out: Try living for future you. Would future you benefit from you sitting around, being calm and contented, possibly rejecting reason? I think not.

 

I had something of a breakthrough a couple days ago I'd like to share with you. I recently started working out to improve my health, my mind-body connection, my self-care and self-love, and so many other ways I had been failing future me. When my buddy who helped get me into it was going through the basics, he said to me that you want to break a personal record every workout. My immediate emotional reaction was to push back. I wasn't looking to become Sylvester Stallone, just up my health some.

 

Right away, I saw results that suggested I might be a hyper-responder. I'm not used to having genetic gifts (quite the opposite usually), so I wanted to explore that more and decided to push myself a little bit. This mostly manifested by way of increasing reps per set instead of increasing weight and/or swapping out for more challenging exercises in a particular category (such as push, pull, etc). I've been conversing with him the whole time, and even asking about how to know when to step up weight instead of stepping up reps for example. Two workouts ago (four days ago), I swapped out one hinge exercise for another as I felt I wasn't getting enough from it. Sure enough, the next day my hamstrings were sorer in a good way. BUT by time I had gotten to the intervals section of the workout (tail end), I felt I had more in me. I even pushed myself pretty hard during intervals and when all was said and done, I still felt I had more in me. In other words, I felt like I hadn't gotten everything out of the workout that I could have.

 

So the last time I worked out (two days ago), I decided based on my success in swapping out an exercise, that I was going to re-examine my workout. I decided to swap out a couple exercises. I decided I was going to start stepping up and/or adding weight rather than reps. THEN I decided instead of just going to a target rep, I was going to keep going until I got the muscle fatigue you want to shoot for. This was a three stage approach to my limits. Keep in mind the program I'm using is about proper form and steady gains, so I wasn't going "all out" or really risking injury or anything like that. That workout KICKED MY ASS in the best possible way.

 

But the point is in what it did for me mentally and in turn emotionally. This was me exploring my limits instead of deliberately holding back for comfort's sake. It felt so damn good! Like you, I had spent my life living for others. So even once I felt "free," I still kept myself small out of habit. I was exploring my limits or fully applying myself. As a result, the me of today is worse off than I could've been. So now, I'm doing what I can to make sure future me (even the me of tomorrow) has the best possible set up. It's a way to help make sure my abusers no longer harm me in the present. On a side note, yesterday, I felt great. It didn't feel like I had destroyed myself or anything. I got all of the benefits and no unsavory side effects. So today, I will continue this new "trend" and continue to work as hard as I can to give future me all that I can because I love him and he deserves better. How about you?

Grrr i lost all what i was going to say damn it...

 

Ill get back to you later. Maybe i should skype it or say it instead rewriting ALL it agains :S

[Anuojat]

I'm not sure I understand the question though. In your opening post, you even asked why should you have preferences. It's autonomic that you have preferences, so I'm not sure where "should" enters into it.

 

How do you know? You seem conflicted and it would seem that in this topic, you're seeking answers to numerous questions. These are not traits of somebody who is calm on the meta level.

 

So why not give yourself that permission? Since you're used to living for other people (as was I), try this out: Try living for future you. Would future you benefit from you sitting around, being calm and contented, possibly rejecting reason? I think not.

 

I had something of a breakthrough a couple days ago I'd like to share with you. I recently started working out to improve my health, my mind-body connection, my self-care and self-love, and so many other ways I had been failing future me. When my buddy who helped get me into it was going through the basics, he said to me that you want to break a personal record every workout. My immediate emotional reaction was to push back. I wasn't looking to become Sylvester Stallone, just up my health some.

 

Right away, I saw results that suggested I might be a hyper-responder. I'm not used to having genetic gifts (quite the opposite usually), so I wanted to explore that more and decided to push myself a little bit. This mostly manifested by way of increasing reps per set instead of increasing weight and/or swapping out for more challenging exercises in a particular category (such as push, pull, etc). I've been conversing with him the whole time, and even asking about how to know when to step up weight instead of stepping up reps for example. Two workouts ago (four days ago), I swapped out one hinge exercise for another as I felt I wasn't getting enough from it. Sure enough, the next day my hamstrings were sorer in a good way. BUT by time I had gotten to the intervals section of the workout (tail end), I felt I had more in me. I even pushed myself pretty hard during intervals and when all was said and done, I still felt I had more in me. In other words, I felt like I hadn't gotten everything out of the workout that I could have.

 

So the last time I worked out (two days ago), I decided based on my success in swapping out an exercise, that I was going to re-examine my workout. I decided to swap out a couple exercises. I decided I was going to start stepping up and/or adding weight rather than reps. THEN I decided instead of just going to a target rep, I was going to keep going until I got the muscle fatigue you want to shoot for. This was a three stage approach to my limits. Keep in mind the program I'm using is about proper form and steady gains, so I wasn't going "all out" or really risking injury or anything like that. That workout KICKED MY ASS in the best possible way.

 

But the point is in what it did for me mentally and in turn emotionally. This was me exploring my limits instead of deliberately holding back for comfort's sake. It felt so damn good! Like you, I had spent my life living for others. So even once I felt "free," I still kept myself small out of habit. I was exploring my limits or fully applying myself. As a result, the me of today is worse off than I could've been. So now, I'm doing what I can to make sure future me (even the me of tomorrow) has the best possible set up. It's a way to help make sure my abusers no longer harm me in the present. On a side note, yesterday, I felt great. It didn't feel like I had destroyed myself or anything. I got all of the benefits and no unsavory side effects. So today, I will continue this new "trend" and continue to work as hard as I can to give future me all that I can because I love him and he deserves better. How about you?

After getting frustrated yesterday by my writing being deleted accidentally... i had some more time to think and more people to chat with.

 

I know that i was more asking question in certain order to almost kinda find out what was the right question. But i know now, thanks to you and my friends... And talking with them about honesty and with honesty... i do value my preferences.  And i do know that i was calm emptiness rather than despair since i feel now like I’ve cleaned off loads of trash and confusion off my shoulders.

 

It’s still tad hard to give myself permissions, but I’ve done it with few things slowly now... Reason being what i wrote in my journal:

 

**""REASON: My preferences were danger to those around me in big and small and subtle ways. So they had to be labelled, "wrong" "bad"

"leading to chaos and despair" "out of control" and so on. And my parent’s preferences had to labelled as SHOULDs.

 

But they were just preferences too. And thus i am clear and solid; Reason my preferences evoke such hostility is because of them.

 

This is also the reason why when i think on acting and believing in myself and in my preferences i get anxious and scared.

It’s because those around me attacked with supposedly "objective" SHOULDs.

 

Thus making me believe that objective rules were the highest importance coming from "good" authority.""**

 

And to add to this Dsayers, I believed that i should not be allowed to prefer things because i could prefer evil things too and just act on them as easily as i would act in things like preferring to live or preferring to eat or preference for truth. And so on.

 

But those were my abusers, parents, teachers, bullies all one and the same... labelling what I want as "dangerously arbitrary" as my mom once put it. This is why part of me that is my anger and me came to believe i was an evil villain.

 

Being angry at my parents in this situation went in horribly incorrect conclusion that my anger MUST and be an EVIL preference that must be kept at bay at all times and objective RULES must override my preferences. Because supposedly "left on theyre own" aka me giving myself permission and having preferences generated by myself i would do whatever.

 

So yeah. My anger thanks you and so do i. And so do we... AKA just me. For showing such, not just sympathy but open vulnerable curiosity.

 

 

Speaking of exercise both yesterday and today i exercised and pushed myself hard too! Even before yesterday i read your post I sweated like a mythical beast running for miles

 

And i did push myself hard and hard because i felt i could and WANTED TO. I wanted to love hard work. I wanted to love sweat and love working my ass off like feral noble beast to build muscle and healthy future for myself Sorry if all the strange animal metaphors, it feels appropriate after such END and relief from false self. Filling void in with good stuff especially so primal stuff as hard workout

 

PS. I guess reason why the emptyness started with "Why be rational?" Is because previously the "answer" was essentially BECAUSE MOM IS GOOD/BECAUSE RULES.

 

And now... even though it still triggers me tad, and feels chilly i say... Because i am and want to keep it that way.