Study on the effects of Spanking... Request for information

[ElijahJon]

There was a recently published study, I believe published in April 2016 that looked at 160,000 children over 50 years... does anybody have that full study link?

 

I can't find it, and my friend who recently had a daughter believes in the effectiveness of spanking in certain situations, but did tell me he'd be willing to read the full report.

 

My friend is a highly intelligent, married father. He is african-american and identifies strongly with that community as well as southern baptist ideology. He is a strong advocate for Black lives matter (BLM)

 

If anybody has any objective peaceful parenting resources that may or may not effectively convince christians, that would also be amazing...

 

This man has the potential to be a great father, LET'S GET HIM THERE!

[scottm]

Amazing report & worth the 12$ to buy it! Wow such a huge meta study.

 

News on it:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160425143106.htm

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/04/the-strong-evidence-against-spanking/479937/

[Drew.]

I realize that this is late, and that you probably have already shared the research with him, but I want to say that a major factor and criticism of those studies is the fact that they are correlational in design. The best answer that a researcher can receive from such a design is "X is highly linked with Y." It may be that x causes y, y causes x, or z causes x and y. If he is an intelligent man, he might have realized that that these studies were correlational in nature, and so do not outright prove that spanking is harmful. For a study to do that, it must be experimental. Children would have to be spanked as part of the study, which would be highly unethical which is why this topic is so contested, as there are no studies that can outright prove one way or the other.

 

There are some people who are just going to hold onto spanking. I recently had an interaction with some others where I brought up the topic of spanking. I think that a few methods that I found to be effective were to address that spanking was assault. Of course, doing this is very polarizing, because people don't want to be labeled child abusers. He was likely spanked, which means that he will infer that you are also calling his parents child abusers as well. I tried to shift the focus away from this label stating that while these people might be good parents in some areas, they could be better parents, and isn't that what they are fundamentally trying to achieve by preparing their children for the real world, leaving resources in a will, etc.? Using violence teaches obedience to those who use violence. Children who are spanked learn to hit others who do wrong, according to objective standards or their own personal beliefs. A child who is spanked will try to hit back, because he/she sees that the parent is doing wrong by harming him/her.

 

Anyway, best of luck with this. I know it's a really difficult topic to broach with others. My advice is really to try your best not to turn it into a fight. People get more entrenched in their beliefs when that happens.

[Tyler H]

I realize that this is late, and that you probably have already shared the research with him, but I want to say that a major factor and criticism of those studies is the fact that they are correlational in design. 

I was spanked and until finding FDR would have continued that abuse for all the reasons you hear everyone who spanks profess.  One of the arguments I found truly compelling was that although the evidence is correlational, the risk is there.  However, and it's quite tragic, I believe you are right that some, maybe most, people are too intransigent.  I shudder to think of how close I was to being one of those people if I did not hear compelling arguments from someone I respected.  In fact, sadly, the first person to ever earn that respect, not demand it.  Hmm, maybe there is something there.  Maybe the best way to change people's minds is to earn their respect first. 

[Drew.]

I was spanked and until finding FDR would have continued that abuse for all the reasons you hear everyone who spanks profess.  One of the arguments I found truly compelling was that although the evidence is correlational, the risk is there.  However, and it's quite tragic, I believe you are right that some, maybe most, people are too intransigent.  I shudder to think of how close I was to being one of those people if I did not hear compelling arguments from someone I respected.  In fact, sadly, the first person to ever earn that respect, not demand it.  Hmm, maybe there is something there.  Maybe the best way to change people's minds is to earn their respect first. 

 

For sure. If there is no respect, there is no reason to listen.

 

I try to rely on people's better nature when I talk about things like this with them. "If you could raise your child without violence, without hurting them, wouldn't you want to do that?" I think it might be quite the sophistic question, as it would be really hard to answer "no."

[Troubador]

Drew I think the fact that scientists won't do the study where you'd need to hit children kind of says it all. If it so foundational to ethics in scientific methodology then a whole bunch of scientists have already worked out it's wrong. It just requires a zooming out to broader ethics in science. If it would be ethically wrong for a scientific study to do it in the name of science then it follows it would also be wrong to do it in the name of parenting. Essentially if something is prohibited from study on ethical grounds it shouldn't be done on other people for the same reason. Make a proponent of hitting children argue if it's fine why shouldn't scientists be able to initiate violence in the name of science.

 

Tyler can I just take a moment to say I wasn't systematically hit as a child so I have zero inclination to do so with my son. It's just my default, no real virtue there in my case to be honest. Can I just say having experienced it yourself, examined it and concluding that it is wrong shows tremendous character and insight I salute you for it.

 

I just fell into the trap of getting into an argument on Facebook about it and upon evidence being asked for, provided and then just petulantly rejected I'm afraid I played to the gallery and just made the guy look like a real idiot and buffoon, by thanking him for putting up such a feeble argument in favour of spanking and for providing such low hanging fruit to rebut and make it clear to anyone reading it what an asinine and and ridiculous thing defending spanking is.

[Drew.]

Drew I think the fact that scientists won't do the study where you'd need to hit children kind of says it all. If it so foundational to ethics in scientific methodology then a whole bunch of scientists have already worked out it's wrong. It just requires a zooming out to broader ethics in science. If it would be ethically wrong for a scientific study to do it in the name of science then it follows it would also be wrong to do it in the name of parenting. Essentially if something is prohibited from study on ethical grounds it shouldn't be done on other people for the same reason. Make a proponent of hitting children argue if it's fine why shouldn't scientists be able to initiate violence in the name of science.

 

Tyler can I just take a moment to say I wasn't systematically hit as a child so I have zero inclination to do so with my son. It's just my default, no real virtue there in my case to be honest. Can I just say having experienced it yourself, examined it and concluding that it is wrong shows tremendous character and insight I salute you for it.

 

I just fell into the trap of getting into an argument on Facebook about it and upon evidence being asked for, provided and then just petulantly rejected I'm afraid I played to the gallery and just made the guy look like a real idiot and buffoon, by thanking him for putting up such a feeble argument in favour of spanking and for providing such low hanging fruit to rebut and make it clear to anyone reading it what an asinine and and ridiculous thing defending spanking is.

 

I would imagine that someone who was in support of spanking would argue against and reject the set ethical standards of the scientific community in this instance. That it's just a bunch of sissies in white coats blah blah blah blah blah.

 

I've had a few interactions like that with other people. My experience has been that they get more entrenched in their prejudice. In a public format, things are especially high stakes, as they have face to lose and may experience social rejection by those who they consider to be close that also support their position. The more they defend the position they are in, the more that they have to lose, the higher the stakes, the more that they must resist losing at all costs. It might be enlightening for the people who are witnessing the exchange, but I can't think of a single time when someone I had an exchange with like that has had any degree of humility, curiosity, or integrity

[Tyler H]

Tyler can I just take a moment to say I wasn't systematically hit as a child so I have zero inclination to do so with my son. It's just my default, no real virtue there in my case to be honest. Can I just say having experienced it yourself, examined it and concluding that it is wrong shows tremendous character and insight I salute you for it.

Thank you very much Troubador.

 

 

 

but I can't think of a single time when someone I had an exchange with like that has had any degree of humility, curiosity, or integrity

When I read that my first thought was: yup no surprise coming from people who condone hitting tiny helpless innocent human beings. That could be my bias talking though...

[Drew.]

When I read that my first thought was: yup no surprise coming from people who condone hitting tiny helpless innocent human beings. That could be my bias talking though...

 

In my experience, there are two groups of parents who spank. Those that think it is a good and necessary thing--which would be those people that we described--and those who are ignorant and follow the conventional wisdom and see it as a last resort. The latter group is more open to change than the former.