Men Insulting Each Other

[Pod]

I've heard Stef say men verbally abuse each other to help acclimatize each other to verbal abuse.  That strikes me as the "we bullied you in high school in order to make you stronger".  Bullies don't bully for your benefit because I don't remember mine doing post-game surveys and asking me for feedback.  It's 100% sadistic.

 

When I started going hard in the FDR a year ago, my self attack habit totally vanished.  I used to do it at least 3 times a day and now I can't even imagine self-attacking.  I got rid of my "friends" who were verbally abusive and with the friends I had remaining I never again made passive aggressive remarks or insults out of "playfulness", and none of our conversations dithered in value.  They turned more serious and whole.  I can see honest no-sugarcoat feedback as the closest thing to what he's talking about but I can't make the leap into "verbal abuse can be helpful".

 

Was this just a colloquial hunk of wisdom Stef was giving out or does it have some rational backing?

[luxfelix]

Do you have a link to the statement's context? 

[MysterionMuffles]

It's also a testing of boundaries, to see how much each guy takes themselves seriously. Whoever does the insulting also has to deal with the consequences of hitting the wrong nerve and learn to stay off certain topics for insult.

[Will Torbald]

I've heard Stef say men verbally abuse each other to help acclimatize each other to verbal abuse.  That strikes me as the "we bullied you in high school in order to make you stronger".  Bullies don't bully for your benefit because I don't remember mine doing post-game surveys and asking me for feedback.  It's 100% sadistic.

 

When I started going hard in the FDR a year ago, my self attack habit totally vanished.  I used to do it at least 3 times a day and now I can't even imagine self-attacking.  I got rid of my "friends" who were verbally abusive and with the friends I had remaining I never again made passive aggressive remarks or insults out of "playfulness", and none of our conversations dithered in value.  They turned more serious and whole.  I can see honest no-sugarcoat feedback as the closest thing to what he's talking about but I can't make the leap into "verbal abuse can be helpful".

 

Was this just a colloquial hunk of wisdom Stef was giving out or does it have some rational backing?

 

I think of it in terms of advantages in sexual competition. If two comparatively equally strong and fit men are competing for females, then mental games are a way to demoralize the other men without resorting to violence. Thus men will find ways to psycho-battle amongst them to establish hierarchy and access to females. A bullied man will have less confidence and will turn away women with its insecurities. I don't think the theory that it insulates men from verbal abuse is correct, but that's how psychology goes, it's not really falsifiable like a hard science is.

[Tibith]

I understand that it's more of a contextual thing: it's not verbal abuse if it's voluntary. For instance, at work I have this guy that occasionally cracks little off-the-cuff jokes about my skills like "Let's see what you broke here". But here the tone is everything. He is clearly indicating through the use of tone that he is joking and so I take this as an invitation for me to do the same to him (also, if he feels he oversteps he "corrects" himself and at the end gives objective feedback anyways). This bro-ish ball-busting dynamic can be annoying, but it also can stem from a want to become close the the "insultee". Typical male behavior, and can mostly be benign and actually fun sometimes, when in moderation.

[Wuzzums]

In the movie Gran Torino there's a scene where Clint Eastwood takes his ward to a barber shop for a haircut and to show him how to talk like a man. It showcases both instances of verbal insults, the playfulness and the abusiveness. It's pretty hard to describe the difference but once you see men interact, you can easily spot which is which.

 

 

with the friends I had remaining I never again made passive aggressive remarks or insults out of "playfulness", and none of our conversations dithered in value.  They turned more serious and whole.  I can see honest no-sugarcoat feedback as the closest thing to what he's talking about but I can't make the leap into "verbal abuse can be helpful".

 

Playful insults and meaningful conversations aren't mutually exclusive. I can have meaningful conversations with strangers, however I cannot do playful insults with them. It's about boundaries, you insult someone and they allow you to because they know you and know you don't mean it. It shows your relationship runs deeper than words.

[neeeel]

In the movie Gran Torino there's a scene where Clint Eastwood takes his ward to a barber shop for a haircut and to show him how to talk like a man. It showcases both instances of verbal insults, the playfulness and the abusiveness. It's pretty hard to describe the difference but once you see men interact, you can easily spot which is which.

 

 

 

Playful insults and meaningful conversations aren't mutually exclusive. I can have meaningful conversations with strangers, however I cannot do playful insults with them. It's about boundaries, you insult someone and they allow you to because they know you and know you don't mean it. It shows your relationship runs deeper than words.

 

I have never got the insults thing. It has always baffled and scared me, and it seems clear that very often, they do mean it. What does it mean to "not mean it"? Their insults are directed at your weak spots, or are indicative of the the insulter having contempt or dislike for some area of your personality ( if you are fat, they arent going to tease you about being thin, they are going to target your fatness). They are trying, for whatever reason, to hurt you. 

I suppose I can understand that its somewhat of a test to see how seriously you take yourself, how close to reality you are. But further than that, it seems designed to hurt.

[perrytheplat]

I've heard Stef say men verbally abuse each other to help acclimatize each other to verbal abuse.  That strikes me as the "we bullied you in high school in order to make you stronger".  Bullies don't bully for your benefit because I don't remember mine doing post-game surveys and asking me for feedback.  It's 100% sadistic.

 

When I started going hard in the FDR a year ago, my self attack habit totally vanished.  I used to do it at least 3 times a day and now I can't even imagine self-attacking.  I got rid of my "friends" who were verbally abusive and with the friends I had remaining I never again made passive aggressive remarks or insults out of "playfulness", and none of our conversations dithered in value.  They turned more serious and whole.  I can see honest no-sugarcoat feedback as the closest thing to what he's talking about but I can't make the leap into "verbal abuse can be helpful".

 

Was this just a colloquial hunk of wisdom Stef was giving out or does it have some rational backing?

 

Interesting observation. Can you share the quote or source of that quote so that we can have a better idea of what we are considering? Good for you on getting rid of some toxic people in your life. I recently did the same and while your world may seem smaller for the time being ... it's a more honest one with less drain on your conscience. 

 

 

I have never got the insults thing. It has always baffled and scared me, and it seems clear that very often, they do mean it. What does it mean to "not mean it"? Their insults are directed at your weak spots, or are indicative of the the insulter having contempt or dislike for some area of your personality ( if you are fat, they arent going to tease you about being thin, they are going to target your fatness). They are trying, for whatever reason, to hurt you. 

I suppose I can understand that its somewhat of a test to see how seriously you take yourself, how close to reality you are. But further than that, it seems designed to hurt.

 

Could you elaborate on this more? Is it always designed to hurt someone for the express purpose of hurting them?

[Wuzzums]

I have never got the insults thing. It has always baffled and scared me, and it seems clear that very often, they do mean it. What does it mean to "not mean it"? Their insults are directed at your weak spots, or are indicative of the the insulter having contempt or dislike for some area of your personality ( if you are fat, they arent going to tease you about being thin, they are going to target your fatness). They are trying, for whatever reason, to hurt you. 

I suppose I can understand that its somewhat of a test to see how seriously you take yourself, how close to reality you are. But further than that, it seems designed to hurt.

Well of course they're directed at your weak spots. Here's an allegory: you open up your heart to people, a stranger might stabs it, a friend pokes it, and a lover caresses it. It's the verbal equivalent of tickling.

You let someone insult you and shrug it off it's a clear indication to the other that the relationship is solid. It's like a bridge, once you say to someone to stop insulting someone it's like putting up a wall.

 

Again, you need to look at what is not being said. Most communication is non-verbal.

 

 

Their insults are directed at your weak spots, or are indicative of the the insulter having contempt or dislike for some area of your personality

 

We are talking about playful insults. A playful insult directed at someone's insecurities are in my view indicative of the person's respect for you as a whole. For instance let's say some friend of mine has weight problems and I constantly poke fun at him. Our relationship does not revolve around that and his insecurities are a barrier in developing a deeper connection therefore it needs to be constantly addressed until it is not anymore. Having dislike of some personality trait does not imply dislike of the person.

[A4E]

Stef says this after the 8 minute mark in the latest youtube video called "Where social justice warriors come from"

[dsayers]

Here's the last topic on the subject: https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/42208-the-line-between-teasing-and-abuse/Not specifically of men, but I don't think the topic is gender specific anyways. I would guess women are WAY more abusive towards one another. Just not necessarily to each others' faces.

[neeeel]

Well of course they're directed at your weak spots. Here's an allegory: you open up your heart to people, a stranger might stabs it, a friend pokes it, and a lover caresses it. It's the verbal equivalent of tickling.

You let someone insult you and shrug it off it's a clear indication to the other that the relationship is solid. It's like a bridge, once you say to someone to stop insulting someone it's like putting up a wall.

 

I dont understand., why would you let someone insult you? Are they a friend if they want to insult you/

 

 

We are talking about playful insults. A playful insult directed at someone's insecurities are in my view indicative of the person's respect for you as a whole. For instance let's say some friend of mine has weight problems and I constantly poke fun at him. Our relationship does not revolve around that and his insecurities are a barrier in developing a deeper connection therefore it needs to be constantly addressed until it is not anymore. Having dislike of some personality trait does not imply dislike of the person.

 

 

I realised its context dependent to a degree

 

 

Could you elaborate on this more? Is it always designed to hurt someone for the express purpose of hurting them?

 

I dont see how it couldnt be. What other motive could you have? 

[Wuzzums]

I dont understand., why would you let someone insult you? Are they a friend if they want to insult you/

 

We need to define our terms here because I think we're talking about 2 different things.

An insult is something that is meant to cause a negative reaction in you because they dislike you.

A playful insult is something meant to poke fun at the negative reaction you might have.

Sometimes insults can be endearment terms which to a third party might look like a confrontation.

I let friends insult me because they let me insult them back. This is just a tiny part of the relationship. A friend is not someone that does not insult you, the local store owner is not my friend. A friend is someone you can be completely honest with, without having the fear of the relationship ending if you insult them or get insulted by them. I have stopped being friends with people that didn't insult me to my face  though they did so with a 3rd party.

[Troubador]

I've had both the experience of bieng bullied at school (mainly verbal after I nipped the physical stuff in the bud early on), and I have had some tremendously witty friends who we can have lots of fun poking fun at one another. It's a question of reading the room, and it all being reciprocal. Basically I'd only take it from a close friend who is able to take it as well as give it.

 

I guess you can look at verbal sparring like physical sparring. Only do with those you would trust and you are better prepared for the slings and arrows of the real world. You can actually convey a tremendous amount of information through a well timed put down. The ability to both give and take a joke is a mark of character.

 

Finally lets face it we all fail sometimes and sometimes when we fail it can be kinda funny. For example for years I thought the word nude meant a river in Greece. I had a passion for reading Greek myths as a 10 year old, and there was always this or that Greek goddess who was described as "bathing in the nude" and some poor sap mortal getting cursed with blindness or some other thing for witnessing it. I was so confused....

[MysterionMuffles]

I've had both the experience of bieng bullied at school (mainly verbal after I nipped the physical stuff in the bud early on), and I have had some tremendously witty friends who we can have lots of fun poking fun at one another. It's a question of reading the room, and it all being reciprocal. Basically I'd only take it from a close friend who is able to take it as well as give it.

 

I guess you can look at verbal sparring like physical sparring. Only do with those you would trust and you are better prepared for the slings and arrows of the real world. You can actually convey a tremendous amount of information through a well timed put down. The ability to both give and take a joke is a mark of character.

 

Finally lets face it we all fail sometimes and sometimes when we fail it can be kinda funny. For example for years I thought the word nude meant a river in Greece. I had a passion for reading Greek myths as a 10 year old, and there was always this or that Greek goddess who was described as "bathing in the nude" and some poor sap mortal getting cursed with blindness or some other thing for witnessing it. I was so confused....

 

Yeah it's a test of egos. If you take yourself too seriously and get hurt, it might mean you are either too insecure or your friends didn't time the insult well. Or even thought it out well. Lol funny example btw.

 

 

We need to define our terms here because I think we're talking about 2 different things.

An insult is something that is meant to cause a negative reaction in you because they dislike you.

A playful insult is something meant to poke fun at the negative reaction you might have.

Sometimes insults can be endearment terms which to a third party might look like a confrontation.

I let friends insult me because they let me insult them back. This is just a tiny part of the relationship. A friend is not someone that does not insult you, the local store owner is not my friend. A friend is someone you can be completely honest with, without having the fear of the relationship ending if you insult them or get insulted by them. I have stopped being friends with people that didn't insult me to my face  though they did so with a 3rd party.

 

To simplify, I think we could use "tease" for a playful joke at someone's expense, and use insult for a hurtful joke at someone's expense. The difference lies in to what degree someone cares about the content of the insult, like being made fun of for liking Barry Manilow or something.

 

I very much like the idea of verbal sparring, it's akin to debate sparring I do with my friends. It's all in good fun and for the purpose of understanding each other better instead of undermining each other. Knowing when to cross a line or not is a strange strange way to get to know someone better, even in terms of telling visceral poop and sex jokes around someone to see if they can tolerate it. When it comes to offensive joke, whether it's at the expense of someone in your presence or just some abstract entity (like making fun of blonde chicks in a general sense), telling jokes is a safe and playful way to find out what people can take.

 

If you're empathetic, you'd either stray away from certain topics or take the time to understand why it hurts them. If not, then sure, that can be construed as bullying to continue insulting someone for something you know hurts them.

[dsayers]

I guess you can look at verbal sparring like physical sparring. Only do with those you would trust and you are better prepared for the slings and arrows of the real world.

This is a strange thing for me to read. Self-knowledge is all the shield I need from the arrows of without. Because it gives me less to prove and helps me to understand how much they're telling me about themselves, not me. Sparring is for the purpose of preparation. Which I think is a fair comparison in that if you are willing to sling insults in play, you will have less resistance to do so when frustrated or annoyed. Right now, I am pushing back on something that you have said; Is this not a form of sparring? This form does not resemble destruction and in fact is meant to build both of us up. So I would at this point reject the claim that we need to behave like the destructive in order to "spar." What do you think?

[Pod]

Do you have a link to the statement's context? 

 

8 mins into "Where Social Justice Warriors Come From"

[Pod]

It's also a testing of boundaries, to see how much each guy takes themselves seriously. Whoever does the insulting also has to deal with the consequences of hitting the wrong nerve and learn to stay off certain topics for insult.

 

I like your new icon. 

 

Also I don't agree that it's a way to see how seriously someone takes themselves.  By that I'm guessing you mean seeing if someone has self-respect/confidence.  There are plenty of ways to gauge that. Like how they talk about themselves/others, eye contact, body language, etc, and if you're already their friend, you've decided they have self-respect or are working to get it (which is self respect).  Of course you'd only do this if you yourself took yourself seriously.   

 

I used to engage in it and it can be really fun but now it just stinks of something I can't pin down. 

[MysterionMuffles]

I like your new icon. 

 

Also I don't agree that it's a way to see how seriously someone takes themselves.  By that I'm guessing you mean seeing if someone has self-respect/confidence.  There are plenty of ways to gauge that. Like how they talk about themselves/others, eye contact, body language, etc, and if you're already their friend, you've decided they have self-respect or are working to get it (which is self respect).  Of course you'd only do this if you yourself took yourself seriously.   

 

I used to engage in it and it can be really fun but now it just stinks of something I can't pin down. 

 

Thanks!

 

Hmm good point. There are several different ways to guage somebody's level of self respect, but when it comes to say...comedians, insults is how they guage it. Roasts are popular because the person getting roasted has enough self respect and self esteem to be able to take the onslaught of insults coming from several other comedians.

 

It's a strange ritual that I used to take part in, where my friends and I roasted each other to see how well we can take each other's shit in a voluntary exchange, very much like an MMA fight. There's some pain involved, but because it's voluntary, you come to expect it and are ready to make your retorts. It's a way to strengthen each other so that when it comes to facing off with other people who may insult you, who you DO NOT like, you'd be well equipped to fight back.

 

Not that any of that is neccessary, obviously stay away from shitty people. 

 

Check out this roast of Justin Bieber, though, to see what I mean. He doesn't take himself seriously to cry about what these people are saying because minus the insults, they have respect for his talents and success. I don't neccessarily agree with how dark some of these jokes get, but I can understand how much mental defense one would have to put up to deflect it. It's like preparing him to take the insults from people who hate on him on social media. 

 

 

It's the cleverness and irony of the joke that would force him to come up with his own retorts.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX39cT9X09c

 

They're all successful and famous celebrities who have taken the criticism of millions around the world, and are now more or less repeating some of that criticism, heightening it, and spreading it amongst themselves in a non-serious way to show that mere clever words don't hurt them.

 

To me, it's all understandable, but I'm still working out whether or not I condone it or see if it's even a healthy thing to do. Just entertaining the idea without accepting it, but striving to understand it.

[luxfelix]

Right now, I am pushing back on something that you have said; Is this not a form of sparring? This form does not resemble destruction and in fact is meant to build both of us up. So I would at this point reject the claim that we need to behave like the destructive in order to "spar." What do you think?

 

Precisely.

 

And likewise, you'll find a similar dynamic wherein the other person can either take offense or play back, albeit to a higher standard than casual vulgarity.

 

Edit: (Here, "higher standard" refers to an aesthetic preference, if the exchange is voluntary.)

[Guest Gee]

Does it exist to the same extent in other cultures? I'm genuinly interested.

 

Can't imagine it is of the same magnitude in Africa or East Asia.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

K selected societies focus on criticism. Criticism is a tool to increase resources in society. If you make bad decisions, you will be ostracized. It's not an insult to ostracize someone. It's based on the reality of their decisions, and the criticism is in pointing that out. A society which is willing to criticize itself is a society which is willing to acknowledge more risks.

 

Criticism is an objective standard. The alphas of criticism are going to be among the most intelligent, credible, experienced, skillful members of society. They are going to get most of the resources in a society which recognizes the objective value of criticism, because that society is going to have a free market to reward these people, and criticism is the most marketable skill. If you're not successful at dealing out or taking criticism, you are going to be at a disadvantage from the point of sexual value in this society, because you are gong to be punished for your inability to acknowledge your objective faults. I personally prefer this, because if someone is going to beat me out at a task or point out how I am inferior, I want it to be for objective reasons - not because they're better at conducting clever noise that has no practical effect on resource gathering in society.

 

Insults tend to be the exact opposite of criticism. Instead of indicating one's ability to gather resources, it convinces females of the males' capacity to withstand their matriarchal humiliation (morally neutral), which propels the men to fight one another for the best females. Physical aggression and a capacity to threaten are what is being selected for in a society which is insulting itself rather than criticizing itself.

 

I think this r/K line of reasoning (and how it either empowers or disempowers men compared to females in the sexual marketplace; K empowers men, R empowers women) is the main difference between whether people insult or criticize. They're either trying to appeal to the females around them via a capacity to dominate physically and be intimidating, or they're trying to appeal to women by their capacity to gather resources by engaging in objective criticism, and ignoring all that which doesn't get their ladies more resources.

 

I am open to criticism of this post because I want to acknowledge my objective faults and improve based on them. But dammit, don't insult me (not that I expect anyone to here) because I can't do crap with an insult, but waste my time and insult back. It's sparring in a way that is detrimental to males, but engaging for females, to the extent the women are being pressured to be R selected. That's why men do or don't do it, I think. And that's why I think these days, you can go on TV and insult someone and the crowd will cheer, but if you argue with someone the crowd will get anxious, until someone proves their dominance by insulting cleverly again. We are becoming more R selected as a society from importing and incentive to create R selected culture.

[Drew.]

I am open to criticism of this post because I want to acknowledge my objective faults and improve based on them. But dammit, don't insult me (not that I expect anyone to here) because I can't do crap with an insult, but waste my time and insult back. It's sparring in a way that is detrimental to males, but engaging for females, to the extent the women are being pressured to be R selected. That's why men do or don't do it, I think. And that's why I think these days, you can go on TV and insult someone and the crowd will cheer, but if you argue with someone the crowd will get anxious, until someone proves their dominance by insulting cleverly again. We are becoming more R selected as a society from importing and incentive to create R selected culture.

 

I think that there is definitely a fine line between criticism and insult, and at times, criticism does breach into insult. To be good at taking an insult is to be either really numb or able to deflect it really easily (realize how it doesn't apply and how absurd it is). At least, the latter is something that I have found happen when I've been able to shrug off an insult with alacrity. But, I do think that criticism has a time and a place, and the delivery is important as well.

 

On the topic in general, I do think that insults among friends or peers is a misguided attempt at male-bonding. Growing up, I definitely had the premise that you could insult your friends, but you could not insult other people. My friends and I could be particularly vicious with each other, taking pride when we came up with something particularly cutting. I know that all of us were spanked growing up and verbally abused as well. I think that from our parents, we learned that to love a person is to attack them. As men, we wanted to show that we loved/cared about one another, but there were other cultural rules that we had to follow, such that we could not be physically affectionate, be very emotional expressive, etc. So, we resorted to this other method that we learned from our childhoods.

 

 

Does it exist to the same extent in other cultures? I'm genuinly interested.

 

Can't imagine it is of the same magnitude in Africa or East Asia.

 

I lived in Asia for four years. I couldn't speak the languages, but it really did seem like guys were doing the same thing. It's pretty rough there, children being smacked out in public.

[Donnadogsoth]

I've heard Stef say men verbally abuse each other to help acclimatize each other to verbal abuse.  That strikes me as the "we bullied you in high school in order to make you stronger".  Bullies don't bully for your benefit because I don't remember mine doing post-game surveys and asking me for feedback.  It's 100% sadistic.

 

I think bullying is rooted in a subconscious urge to improve the victim, but which turns toxic becoming something we call sadism.  I can't speak for current schools, but in my experience boys don't bully girls, for example, possibly because they know they can't "improve" them by making them more boyish and macho.

[Hannibal]

There is a difference between receiving insults from a real loving friend, and from a pretend friend that is using you.

 

As I've aged I've come to see it like this:

 

When someone persistently mocks you in ways that could be credible, then they are either a pretend friend, or are damaged in some way and are behaving badly even tough they may be your friend.

 

When someone mocks you in silly or outrageous ways, by suggesting something so obscene they are really saying 'I love you man'. It shows that you are close enough that you can say these things to each other and know that you don't mean it. It's something that wouldn't be tolerated from someone that wasn't a close friend, and as such the act of doing it - knowing that it will be tolerated - is to say "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it".

[Donnadogsoth]

There is a difference between receiving insults from a real loving friend, and from a pretend friend that is using you.

 

As I've aged I've come to see it like this:

 

When someone persistently mocks you in ways that could be credible, then they are either a pretend friend, or are damaged in some way and are behaving badly even tough they may be your friend.

 

When someone mocks you in silly or outrageous ways, by suggesting something so obscene they are really saying 'I love you man'. It shows that you are close enough that you can say these things to each other and know that you don't mean it. It's something that wouldn't be tolerated from someone that wasn't a close friend, and as such the act of doing it - knowing that it will be tolerated - is to say "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it".

 

Are you saying men friends who insult each other are the equivalent of a friendly bum-pinch of a female?

[ValueOfBrevity]

How does this desensitize men to words? In order to take part in this "insult" behavior in the first place, the men must be comfortable insulting each other and are already desensitized. 

In reality, people can be assholes, and if someone "playfully" insults you, tell them to talk to you with respect or go fuck themselves.

[Pod]

How does this desensitize men to words? In order to take part in this "insult" behavior in the first place, the men must be comfortable insulting each other and are already desensitized. 

 

In reality, people can be assholes, and if someone "playfully" insults you, tell them to talk to you with respect or go fuck themselves.

 

I don't feel like your post was directed at me but at the thread in general.  Is that the case?  Cuz it felt kinda hostile.

[Hannibal]

Are you saying men friends who insult each other are the equivalent of a friendly bum-pinch of a female?

 

That just means "I'd quite like to have sex with you.". Not really the same thing :s

[dsayers]

When someone mocks you in silly or outrageous ways, by suggesting something so obscene they are really saying 'I love you man'. It shows that you are close enough that you can say these things to each other and know that you don't mean it. It's something that wouldn't be tolerated from someone that wasn't a close friend, and as such the act of doing it - knowing that it will be tolerated - is to say "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it".

People who say "I love you man" are the ones really saying "I love you man." People saying "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it" are the ones saying "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it." Saying something you don't mean is not a sign of closeness.

 

That just means "I'd quite like to have sex with you.". Not really the same thing :s

Grabbing somebody's ass is demonstrating that your body is your property and their body is your property.

[Guest Gee]

People who say "I love you man" are the ones really saying "I love you man." People saying "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it" are the ones saying "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it." Saying something you don't mean is not a sign of closeness.

 

You are not English, are you?

[Rachelle]

I grew up with a family (my dad's side) where the males would "joke" and make fun of other people, not just males. It was a game of who could make the most cruel joke without actually stepping over an invisible line where the person would verbally say that they were offended and push back.

 

Like when having a family over for dinner my father says to their little kid "Oh, don't touch those curtains, they'll get your hands dirty" while laughing and ignoring the fact that my mother has social anxieties and tried her best to make the dinner go well. Or my grandpa will say to my brother "Not that we know of anyway" in reference to whether or not he has kids. In the case with my grandpa, its usually what he truly thinks under the guise of a joke. So you're less likely to call him out on it because he'd just say "I was just joking" when everyone knows he's not.

 

At one point in my life I used to call my brother putzy and he called me fatty. I thought little of it and didn't take personal offense, because like what has been suggested, I saw it as a sign of closeness.

 

Reflecting back, none of the behavior of my father, grandpa, uncles, or myself and my brother made me feel closer to them. I called him putzy because I was afraid of telling him directly that I cared for him because to show attachment to something in that family invites people to use it against you in the form of "jokes". I was afraid of being ridiculed. So to me that's how I understand it when I see others do it, especially common in a work place. I think it's a fear of being direct and honest because it invites attack due to vulnerability. This makes sense to me knowing how society expects men to keep their emotions inside and not show any vulnerability. I don't think this is ideal for family or anyone who you consider close, I think it's an obstacle to honesty and intimacy.
 

[Quadrewple]

I've heard Stef say men verbally abuse each other to help acclimatize each other to verbal abuse.  That strikes me as the "we bullied you in high school in order to make you stronger".  Bullies don't bully for your benefit because I don't remember mine doing post-game surveys and asking me for feedback.  It's 100% sadistic.

 

Well yeah, bullies by definition are not intending to help the other person.  Which is why Stef was probably talking about banter, responding to an insult with grace, which is a skill best practiced with people one knows.  I heard the podcast, and I didn't get the impression when I listened that Stef was erring on the side of apologizing for abuse.

[Hannibal]

Grabbing somebody's ass is demonstrating that your body is your property and their body is your property.

 

Not where I come from.

People who say "I love you man" are the ones really saying "I love you man." People saying "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it" are the ones saying "I'm your good friend and I want to remind you of it." Saying something you don't mean is not a sign of closeness.

 

I think you're missing out on something the vast majority of the rest of us experience. Not necessarily better or worse. Just different.

[dsayers]

Not where I come from.

It wasn't a cultural commentary. It was a philosophical absolute.

 

I think you're missing out on something the vast majority of the rest of us experience. Not necessarily better or worse. Just different.

No, I see all too much of it. I'm pushing for a higher standard of human interaction by challenging what I see as the repackaging of insecurity as closeness when I think they are actually in opposition of one another. I'm happy to hear arguments for the contrary. Something better than claiming to come from a place where universals do not apply please