SoCaliGirl Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 This is blowing up on Facebook and looks to be the next white cops vs black man incident.... http://theadvocate.com/news/16311988-77/report-one-baton-rouge-police-officer-involved-in-fatal-shooting-of-suspect-on-north-foster-drive https://mobile.twitter.com/Football_Animal/status/750800625592479744/video/1
csekavec Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 Sometimes persons abuse their delegated authority in acting as peace officers. I don't think this is one of those times. Also the BLM folks have highjacked the issue. Racists. Why aren't they as vocal talking, marching, waving signs about the ~90% of murders that are black people killing black people? Hypocrites.
shirgall Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 I'm going to predict no true bill on this one. Seen multiple camera angles already, and heard clearly the "He's got a gun" from one officer. Even if that officer was totally incorrect in his instant assessment, the other officers would have acted on that information. Alton was not subdued in his actions, and his quick body movements would have made a very bad situation already worse.
Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 Convicted of impregnating a 14 year old when he was 20. Charged with 16 felonies in his life. Numerous burglary and battery charges. But friends and family still say he was a "good guy". If the standards for "good" are that low in the black community, no wonder they have so many problems. 1
EclecticIdealist Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 Sometimes persons abuse their delegated authority in acting as peace officers. I don't think this is one of those times. Also the BLM folks have highjacked the issue. Racists. Why aren't they as vocal talking, marching, waving signs about the ~90% of murders that are black people killing black people? Hypocrites. What makes you think the officer who took Alton Sterling to the ground in such a violent and forceful manner, escalating the violence in the confrontation was not abusing their delegated authority in acting as a "peace officer"? Did you even consider the irony in calling the violent person who shot Alton Sterling a "Peace Officer" instead of the title they use for themselves, "Police or Law Enforcement Officer"? The encounter was anything but peaceful from what I saw. To call him a "Peace Officer" is to abuse the sensibility of anyone with a command of the English language. I'm going to predict no true bill on this one. Seen multiple camera angles already, and heard clearly the "He's got a gun" from one officer. Even if that officer was totally incorrect in his instant assessment, the other officers would have acted on that information. Alton was not subdued in his actions, and his quick body movements would have made a very bad situation already worse. One cop basically assaulted Alton Sterling when he failed to immediately comply with his orders. The cop unprofessionally escalated the use of force to violence rather than attempting to gain his compliance in a more patient and peaceful manner. I realize this sounds ridiculous to the authoritarian types who believe police are justified in any use of violence to obtain compliance. For this reason alone, the cop should lose his badge and gun. Given the officers had reason to believe that Mr. Sterling was indeed carrying a gun on his person when they confronted him, it was highly dangerous and unprofessional for the police officer to attempt to bring Mr. Sterling to the ground in the manner that he did, risking not only his own life and safety, but that of his fellow officers and various bystanders nearby. Once Mr. Sterling was on the ground, however, I believe it to be inappropriate to second-guess the officer's or officers' actions in shooting Mr. Sterling as neither camera angle shows Mr. Sterling's right arm or whether he was indeed attempting to reach into his pocket or otherwise grab the gun which he was carrying at the time of the altercation. Pending further investigation, into the shooting and any other possible video evidence from an angle showing Mr Sterling's right arm once he was on the ground on his back, I believe it to be premature to consider this an outright murder as many are calling it; neither can I rule it out as some are wont to do, but as it stands, the evidence is insufficient to call it murder in my opinion. Nevertheless, I believe the video evidence is clear that it was unprofessional, police violence which endangered many lives and led to a man's death. 1
SoCaliGirl Posted July 7, 2016 Author Posted July 7, 2016 Looks like it will be impossible to know whose hand was where doing what...
shirgall Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 What makes you think the officer who took Alton Sterling to the ground in such a violent and forceful manner, escalating the violence in the confrontation was not abusing their delegated authority in acting as a "peace officer"? Did you even consider the irony in calling the violent person who shot Alton Sterling a "Peace Officer" instead of the title they use for themselves, "Police or Law Enforcement Officer"? The encounter was anything but peaceful from what I saw. To call him a "Peace Officer" is to abuse the sensibility of anyone with a command of the English language. One cop basically assaulted Alton Sterling when he failed to immediately comply with his orders. The cop unprofessionally escalated the use of force to violence rather than attempting to gain his compliance in a more patient and peaceful manner. I realize this is sounds ridiculous to the authoritarian types who believe police are justified in any use of violence to obtain compliance. For this reason alone, the cop should lose his badge and gun. Given the officers had reason to believe that Mr. Sterling was indeed carrying a gun on his person when they confronted him, it was highly dangerous and unprofessional for the police officer to attempt to bring Mr. Sterling to the ground in the manner that he did, risking not only his own life and safety, but that of his fellow officers and various bystanders nearby. Once Mr. Sterling was on the ground, however, I believe it to be inappropriate to second-guess the officer's or officers' actions in shooting Mr. Sterling as neither camera angle shows Mr. Sterling's right arm or whether he was indeed attempting to reach into his pocket or otherwise grab the gun which he was carrying at the time of the altercation. Pending further investigation, into the shooting and any other possible video evidence from an angle showing Mr Sterling's right arm once he was on the ground on his back, I believe it to be premature to consider this an outright murder as many are calling it; neither can I rule it out as some are wont to do, but as it stands, the evidence is insufficient to call it murder in my opinion. Nevertheless, I believe the video evidence is clear that it was unprofessional, police violence which endangered many lives and led to a man's death. If the police knew that someone with a history of violent incidents likely had a gun you can't really fault them for demanding immediate compliance to lawful commands. While police have the extraordinary power to give such commands, they also have voluntarily accepted the duty of pursuing, arresting, and transporting malefactors. What I saw was that part of Alton's body was obscured by the parked car, depending on the angle, and that he was not laying there peacefully either. Coupled with the anxiety of confronting a likely armed and dangerous felon, this is not going to go well. When a fellow officer says, "he's got a gun" they are going to trust that assessment. I don't know why the confrontation started, but in general police don't like to do that when there's bystanders near. Are there any more details on what started the encounter? I still predict no true bill, but the BLM folks are going nuts on Facebook already. Is there any evidence that race had anything to do with this?
SoCaliGirl Posted July 7, 2016 Author Posted July 7, 2016 Now there is another one... Philando Castile http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/falcon-heights-shooting-minnesota/ Wow.... Facebook is freaking out...
shirgall Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 Now there is another one... Philando Castile http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/falcon-heights-shooting-minnesota/ Wow.... Facebook is freaking out... Good analysis here: https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2016/07/07/what-happened-to-philando-castile/?singlepage=true
EclecticIdealist Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 If the police knew that someone with a history of violent incidents likely had a gun you can't really fault them for demanding immediate compliance to lawful commands. While police have the extraordinary power to give such commands, they also have voluntarily accepted the duty of pursuing, arresting, and transporting malefactors. What I saw was that part of Alton's body was obscured by the parked car, depending on the angle, and that he was not laying there peacefully either. Coupled with the anxiety of confronting a likely armed and dangerous felon, this is not going to go well. When a fellow officer says, "he's got a gun" they are going to trust that assessment. I don't know why the confrontation started, but in general police don't like to do that when there's bystanders near. Are there any more details on what started the encounter? I still predict no true bill, but the BLM folks are going nuts on Facebook already. Is there any evidence that race had anything to do with this? I see. So if a parent knows from past experience that their young child is prone to throwing a violent tantrum, kicking and screaming, biting and scratching, etc,; then you can't really fault a parent for violently slamming the child to the floor when their child does not immediately comply with their lawful commands. While parents have extraordinary power over their children, they've also voluntarily accepted the responsibility of raising their children, even if their children are violent, disobedient, or otherwise misbehaving in a manner the parents dislike. Sorry, I ain't buying into the notion that Police and other government employees exist in a different moral sphere than the rest of society. Unless you can make a compelling argument for the case that you have the right to do exactly what the police did to Alton Sterling, I'm going to consider your argument nothing more or less than support for statism. As previously mentioned, my complaint is very much less about what the officers may have felt compelled and thereby justified to do once they had Mr. Sterling on his back on the ground, but rather, their escalation of violence towards him in violently taking him down to the ground in the first place. It is my understanding that police were first called to the scene on the report of someone saying Mr. Sterling threatened him with a gun (perhaps he brandished it, perhaps more, we don't know). Given this fact, I consider the actions of the police officer to be dangerously reckless. His actions not only endangered his own life but that of his fellow officers, and bystanders. The proper response would have been to get Mr. Sterling to comply without engaging him physically the way the officer did. The proper response would have been to patiently wait for Mr. Sterling to turn around and spread eagle on the car or against the wall in a physically compromising position while one of the officers pats him down and removes any weapons (which they had reason to believe he might have on his person). If they imagined him to be a significant threat (which they should have, believing he might have a gun), they should have approached him with weapon or weapons drawn and processed him. If Mr. Sterling refused to follow their instructions, they should simply have waited until he did or found a less dangerous means of subduing him than wrestling him to the ground. The Police Officer did not make any real attempt to resolve it in a safe and peaceful manner; he instead chose to initiate the use of force against Mr. Sterling which ultimately lead to the man's death. This quick and dangerous escalation of violence, particularly against black men and other minorities which so often results in their deaths is what upsets so many in the Black community (and in my opinion justifiably so). While I'm appalled that such escalations in the use of force appear to happen at higher rates against minorities, particularly Black males, I would be just as upset were the victim White, Hispanic, Asian, or any other ethnicity. The overarching problem, in my opinion is not so much a racial issue (although there is ample evidence to suggest race often plays a factor as to how cops of all racial backgrounds behave towards black and hispanic suspects) as it is a police violence issue.
jpahmad Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 The Philando Castile death was even more horrible to watch. It seems, according to what I saw, as well as the analysis that shirgall posted, that the cop fucked up big time. There is no solution to this problem. Not until everything is privatized and localized.
Guest Gee Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 What makes you think the officer who took Alton Sterling to the ground in such a violent and forceful manner, escalating the violence in the confrontation was not abusing their delegated authority in acting as a "peace officer"? Did you even consider the irony in calling the violent person who shot Alton Sterling a "Peace Officer" instead of the title they use for themselves, "Police or Law Enforcement Officer"? The encounter was anything but peaceful from what I saw. To call him a "Peace Officer" is to abuse the sensibility of anyone with a command of the English language. One cop basically assaulted Alton Sterling when he failed to immediately comply with his orders. The cop unprofessionally escalated the use of force to violence rather than attempting to gain his compliance in a more patient and peaceful manner. I realize this sounds ridiculous to the authoritarian types who believe police are justified in any use of violence to obtain compliance. For this reason alone, the cop should lose his badge and gun. The police are to basically assulting Alton Sterling as you are to basically making an argument. 1
labmath2 Posted July 8, 2016 Posted July 8, 2016 The one thing that many is the real time mental states of the persons involved. If i were approached by police officers who yells commands at me, my first instinct would not be compliance, it would be confusion (i would be trying to figure out what is going on). If they tackle me before i comply, i go from confusion to adrenaline fueled fight or flight. Any posibility of compliance is now out the window (at least until my system crashes). Take the police perspective. They are on a suspect they think might be danderous (for whatever reason). Their natural instinct is the longer it takes to go from approach to arrest, the more we put our lives i danger so they are jumpy. In the middle of trying to restrain him someone yells he has a gun. Depending on your state of mind, you either think there is a gun on his person or he is brandishing a gun. Here is my preliminary critique. There is at least incompetence on the cops part. If this is how police are trained to act, then all it takes to severely injure someone is minor misunderstanding or catching someone on bad day. It seems the police expect greater self control from the average person than they demontrate in each of these incidents. Even if soneone was trying to comply if the police do not have adequate knowledge if restraining suspects, people will try to adjust their bodies to minimize discomfort which would result in unecessary injury. I have seen to many videos of 3 or more police officers on one person to seriously question what they are teaching them. If there are three people on you who dont know how to properly position themselves to restrain you with minimal discomfort, i cant imagine the self control it would take to just lie there and take it. There has to be a better way. They could have stood with their guns pointed and ordered him and waited for compliance. Though i think its unfortunate that many cases of poor police practices are now just taken as the norm and instead the focus is on the shooting of blacks which is just a red herring.
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