Male Aversion to the Most Attractive Women

[aviet]

I have been fleshing something out in my mind over the last few days and am interested in other thoughts on this matter. That is the reasoning for males' aversion to the most attractive women, as opposed to very attractive. This is demonstrated in OKCupid's users' messaging patterns by attractiveness:



The orthodoxy is that men tend to avoid the most attractive women as they believe the risk (rejection, humiliation) does not warrant the reward. I think this is probably the primary factor at play, but I am interested to know if anyone thinks otherwise and what other factors are at play.

My thinking is that the 18% of people contacting the most attractive women are primarily composed of alphas and the over-confident people who think they are alphas.

There is also a theory that males want to select the most attractive mate, but it appears that theory has a magic line that appears before the realm of the most attractive women. The reality appears to be men choose to shop up in terms of physical attraction, but only slightly.

However I think there are some nuances here. As readers likely know, two lines in the same direction do not necessarily mean anything. Personally I think that women who are most attractive take on other traits that can be read without necessarily verbally communicating with people: demeanor, physical appearance, facial set, clothing, air etc. And for me it is those aspects that give me an aversion, i.e. a woman who thinks she is a princess.

Thoughts?

[csekavec]

I'd love to see that data correlated with the attractiveness rating that the women gave to the men.

[Kevin Beal]

I remember the "dad bod" thing floating around, where many women were saying that they preferred a man with a little belly, maybe hairy, maybe just a tiny bit like a slob. Not too much, obviously, but not male model chiseled abs either.

 

One explanation for this preference was that it shows that a man is focused on other things, like work or his human capital. Another explanation, which I think is more important, is that women don't wanna be having sex with a guy and thinking "he's in better shape than me," and think of themselves as fat or less attractive. It's probably an insecurity thing more than anything else.

 

Maybe guys aren't messaging the most attractive women because they don't want to compare themselves to a bombshell woman and feel too inferior by comparison.

 

Or it could be a kind of wisdom on the part of men. The Crazy / Hot Matrix is so funny to people because there is some amount of truth to it. Fortunately, I lucked out and got a woman with brains, beauty and virtue.

[Wuzzums]

One idea is that men could be avoiding competition by not choosing the most attractive female. Your chances are far less to get the most attractive female when you're competing against high status males compared to when you're competing against average men for the attention of the average female. Attracting more men increases the chances of infidelity, and infidelity is not an attractive trait. So in a sense, a man can be more attracted to an 8 than a 9 simply because she does not come with the risk of becoming a cuck.

 

Another idea is that an incredibly attractive woman which resorts to dating sites to find a partner is a clear red flag. What's the catch?

[NotDarkYet]

In my experience, extremely attractive women are rarely challenged about their ideas.  

 

Therefore an extremely hot female will be more likely to believe in horoscopes, numerology, essentials oils, sacred geometry, feminism, male disposability etc.

 

A debate with these women will end in tears (hers).

 

All of this accords with my experience of online dating.

[Will Torbald]

That graph is the empirical data form of the Hot/Crazy Matrix theory.

[csekavec]

At least for women in their thirties my experience has been that physical attractiveness and intelligence are highly correlated. 

 

Women in their early twenties, not so much.  But it's so highly anecdotal. I'd love to see data.  My searches on crossref.org yielded nothing but I might not be using the right keywords.

[dsayers]

The orthodoxy is that men tend to avoid the most attractive women as they believe the risk (rejection, humiliation) does not warrant the reward. I think this is probably the primary factor at play, but I am interested to know if anyone thinks otherwise and what other factors are at play.

You can cite the data, but I don't think you can presume the motivation. I would avoid the most attractive women pretty much for the reasons NotYetDark mentioned. I'm not closed-minded to the possibility that an attractive woman could have chosen a path of integrity. But I am mindful of the fact that it's improbable.

 

My thinking is that the 18% of people contacting the most attractive women are primarily composed of alphas and the over-confident people who think they are alphas.

I would push back on this also. First of all, what is your definition of an alpha male? Secondly, you're talking about online dating. There is nothing to lose in approaching whomever you choose. So I think it's presumptuous to think that approaching somebody is with the expectation of success. Some of them could be employing a shotgun approach.

[Rxd]

You can cite the data, but I don't think you can presume the motivation. I would avoid the most attractive women pretty much for the reasons NotYetDark mentioned. I'm not closed-minded to the possibility that an attractive woman could have chosen a path of integrity. But I am mindful of the fact that it's improbable.

 

I would push back on this also. First of all, what is your definition of an alpha male? Secondly, you're talking about online dating. There is nothing to lose in approaching whomever you choose. So I think it's presumptuous to think that approaching somebody is with the expectation of success. Some of them could be employing a shotgun approach.

 

Agree completely.

 

To add it's easy to get a inside look of a women. Mostly because they tend to very up front with their lack of integrity and values.

 

The exception that i found i grab it and will never let go. 

[aviet]

I'd love to see that data correlated with the attractiveness rating that the women gave to the men.

The male chart is very interesting. See half way down: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

 

Maybe guys aren't messaging the most attractive women because they don't want to compare themselves to a bombshell woman and feel too inferior by comparison.

 

Interesting thought.

 

In my experience, extremely attractive women are rarely challenged about their ideas.  

 

Therefore an extremely hot female will be more likely to believe in horoscopes, numerology, essentials oils, sacred geometry, feminism, male disposability etc.

 

A debate with these women will end in tears (hers).

 

All of this accords with my experience of online dating.

Very interesting. I guess that so many men have had a feeling of disposability and madness at the hands of the most attractive women, that this could build up an aversion. That has clarified the aversion for me. I'm not specifically afraid of their beauty, I'm afraid of all the baggage that has been associated with it.

 

First of all, what is your definition of an alpha male?

I was thinking this is a bit of a loose term, but most people will have an idea of the same ballpark. For me, modern, human alpha males are very rare. Among animals, they live in small groups, so they alpha will be one in a handful of men, but humans live together in vast numbers and with much more complicated social dynamics, not just small, largely isolated groups.

 

Even taking individual groups of friends, I would say the vast majorities do not have alphas, even though there may be a dominant individual.

 

For me an alpha human male is someone who has very strong will, largely invulnerable, can deflect attack, is confident, resilient, not petty and materially wealthy. There are only three people I can think of off the top of my head who are alphas: Donald Trump, Putin and an Irish footballer - Roy Keane.

 

To add it's easy to get a inside look of a women. Mostly because they tend to very up front with their lack of integrity and values.

Could you elaborate on that?

[dsayers]

I was thinking this is a bit of a loose term, but most people will have an idea of the same ballpark.

Dude, you have to stop trying to talk for other people. It only serves as a confession that you are insecure, if only with regards to the validity of your opinion.

 

For me an alpha human male is someone who has very strong will, largely invulnerable, can deflect attack, is confident, resilient, not petty and materially wealthy.

Thank you for making the effort to define your terms. Every one of those things could describe a rapist. Stef recently began to describe what an alpha male is here: 

He stopped there because he was tailoring it to that particular caller. I would add to that list strength, intelligence, empathy, and integrity.

 

I hope you will pardon my bias. This is a concept I was re-calibrated on back in January. I am very passionate about it. The world is drowning in State delusion and ideological warfare. Virtuous people need to be able to find one another. One of the ways these opportunities are crippled is when terminology referring to good and bad people get conflated. Humanity needs to understand that alpha males are NOT the jock douchebags. They're the men who will reject non-virtuous women, who will not attack their children, who will not let the most dangerous superstition of "authority" flourish, who will call out and ostracize toxic people, and will run back into the burning building of narrative time and time again to rescue every last person that wishes to be saved. THAT is who we are.

 

Thank you for your time.

[Rxd]

 

To add it's easy to get a inside look of a women. Mostly because they tend to very up front with their lack of integrity and values.

 

Could you elaborate on that?

 

If i remember correctly Stef once said something like this "People who have little to offer will be very upfront with what they have".

 

The way they dress, air, makeup, tattos, walking mannerisms, etc....everything to tell you that what you see is what you get don't bother looking any further!

 

Just yesterday i saw 2 women who fill all these criteria, with the black lipstick and all too match their "black soul".

[NotDarkYet]

If i remember correctly Stef once said something like this "People who have little to offer will be very upfront with what they have".

 

The way they dress, air, makeup, tattos, walking mannerisms, etc....everything to tell you that what you see is what you get don't bother looking any further!

 

Just yesterday i saw 2 women who fill all these criteria, with the black lipstick and all too match their "black soul".

 

Confirmation (today) of this black lipstick theory:

 

A woman on Tinder (with black lipstick and crazy red hair) answered some questions I asked . 

 

- Tell me some pet peeves.

- Tell me something you're a bit embarrassed to admit in mixed company.

 

Good questions.  Easy to start a conversation, right?

 

Her reply was

 

1. I have a lot of pet peeves

2. I say what I want, I don't care what people think.

 

Oh...great conversation technique lady.  Could you try ANY LESS?  Why did you even swipe right (ie, 'like') me?

 

(If you're wondering why I reached out to a crazy looking person, it's because I enjoy testing the accuracy of my Malcolm Gladwell "Blink" instinct.  I EXPECTED this interaction would be disappointing - and sure enough, yep!  Gotta love those instincts)

[David Miller]

My thinking is that the 18% of people contacting the most attractive women are primarily composed of alphas and the over-confident people who think they are alphas.
Thoughts?

 

 

100% of the 8 or above, on the hotness scale, attached women I have met, did not meet their partner online. But maybe not so baseless speculation would say the hottest chicks on online dating sites and apps are assumed to be hookers and avoided by all but the desperate. Super hot girls do not use internet dating in my experience.

 

Personally I avoided the top end of the spectrum for two reasons. Firstly too much competition. Attempting to stand out in a crowd of every single other guy trying to stand out is stupid. Secondly I saw early on the types of male figure that demographic seemed to gravitate towards and those two variables = no chance for lil' ole' me.  A more critical answer would be I'm ugly and not a rapist.  

 

 

 

 

In my experience, extremely attractive women are rarely challenged about their ideas.  

 

Therefore an extremely hot female will be more likely to believe in horoscopes, numerology, essentials oils, sacred geometry, feminism, male disposability etc.

 

A debate with these women will end in tears (hers).

 

All of this accords with my experience of online dating.

Never tried debating a woman I was interested in. Found conversation a more pleasant form of exchange. Interesting tactic though.

 

At least for women in their thirties my experience has been that physical attractiveness and intelligence are highly correlated. 

 

Women in their early twenties, not so much.  But it's so highly anecdotal.   

Agreed.

 

 

You can cite the data, but I don't think you can presume the motivation. I would avoid the most attractive women pretty much for the reasons NotYetDark mentioned. I'm not closed-minded to the possibility that an attractive woman could have chosen a path of integrity. But I am mindful of the fact that it's improbable.

 

I would push back on this also. First of all, what is your definition of an alpha male? Secondly, you're talking about online dating. There is nothing to lose in approaching whomever you choose. So I think it's presumptuous to think that approaching somebody is with the expectation of success. Some of them could be employing a shotgun approach.

Yes and yes.

 

 

 

 

I hope you will pardon my bias. This is a concept I was re-calibrated on back in January. I am very passionate about it. The world is drowning in State delusion and ideological warfare. Virtuous people need to be able to find one another. One of the ways these opportunities are crippled is when terminology referring to good and bad people get conflated. Humanity needs to understand that alpha males are NOT the jock douchebags. They're the men who will reject non-virtuous women, who will not attack their children, who will not let the most dangerous superstition of "authority" flourish, who will call out and ostracize toxic people, and will run back into the burning building of narrative time and time again to rescue every last person that wishes to be saved. THAT is who we are.

 

Thank you for your time.

Taking it back! Amen. Strange aversion to the word re-calibrated....wonder what that's about? 

 

 

If i remember correctly Stef once said something like this "People who have little to offer will be very upfront with what they have".

 

The way they dress, air, makeup, tattos, walking mannerisms, etc....everything to tell you that what you see is what you get don't bother looking any further!

 

Just yesterday i saw 2 women who fill all these criteria, with the black lipstick and all too match their "black soul".

A generalization quoted like gospel. LMAO Dude should we burn them at the stake they might be witches? My accountant wears black lipstick she's a swell lady. #zerochill 

 

 

 

 

Confirmation (today) of this black lipstick theory:

 

A woman on Tinder (with black lipstick and crazy red hair) answered some questions I asked . 

 

- Tell me some pet peeves.

- Tell me something you're a bit embarrassed to admit in mixed company.

 

Good questions.  Easy to start a conversation, right?

 

Her reply was

 

1. I have a lot of pet peeves

2. I say what I want, I don't care what people think.

 

Oh...great conversation technique lady.  Could you try ANY LESS?  Why did you even swipe right (ie, 'like') me?

 

(If you're wondering why I reached out to a crazy looking person, it's because I enjoy testing the accuracy of my Malcolm Gladwell "Blink" instinct.  I EXPECTED this interaction would be disappointing - and sure enough, yep!  Gotta love those instincts)

Tinder is your reference? Can I troll here please?  If I understand correctly your intention was to obtain a result in a character experiment where the control element is the color of an alleged woman's lipstick and the medium is a well known hook up app thus verifying an earlier assertion regarding black lipstick?  Am I missing something? What have you proved? That your opening questions missed and she does not want to talk to you? You probed shallowly for a shallow answer in a shallow place and boom there this is. Yay. I've read this several times and it seems like you are bragging about intellectual masturbation? Is that not correct? You do know what Tinder is right? I'll explain it for you.  It's for drunk people with no immediate sexual partner to rapidly locate and acquire said immediate sexual partner. Also for bored people who would like to find a sexual partner for that night. That's the expectation going in for her dude. You let her down big time. You let Harambe down. You let America down. You let Freedom down.  Approach a broad (can I say broad here?) like that in a bookstore. Not online. Say some intelligent shit. Get her interested in you. Then you can find out all about her. Maybe she's a libertarian who happens to love Slayer? Or maybe she's a librarian who loves Hilary? We'll never know.  But really though it's just people with government education and a potential lifetime of abuse oozing it's fetid way out through distorted creativity...but naw fuck the bitch she's evil right?.  I just think it's disappointing as shit that this post went from some innocuous question about why, potentially, men, online, seem to trend away from extremes of hotness into an interesting conversation about the definition of alpha male into 'Steph said women with black lipstick are evil and I proved it on Tinder'. Fuckin sad bro. Hope I didn't hurt your feels and sorry if the language is bad.

[Worlok]

Risk and reward. Cost and benefit. If you consider them out of your league, then you consider that there is a very high cost and a very high risk, but a very high chance of failure. You can bet all your money on 12 the hard way,  or you can place bets on 6 and 8. 

 

Look, you can either definitely, totally breed with 6s or you can try to breed with a 10, but if you fail, and you most likely will, you will have wasted lots of time and resources. 

[shirgall]

The "out of your league" factor is important. If you approach a woman that's out of your league, you will encounter hostility from her and her thralls because your approach lowers her value because you thought you were good enough, and she was low enough, that there was a chance. Repeated doses of "hot" hostility is enough to stop people from going outside their pigeonhole.

[Nathalie]

From a female perspective, the women I have known who were super hot were just plain mean bitches, sorry to be so blunt.  When I was in my late 20's/ early 30's I was living in LA and surrounded by super hot women, in every bar, every weekend and a slough of men trailing after them.  I think at some point of super hotness, women just don't care about others (both male and female) since they know they will still get the attention they seek simply based on their looks.

 

That video was classic!

[DCLugi]

I know what you're talking about. The way I would describe it is that they have internalized the idea that their looks determine their value so much that they completely embrace vanity. They think they are better than everyone else and that men have to earn the privilege of even being subjected to basic decency and politeness from them. I don't think this is inherent to being "super hot" but it comes along with the cultural trappings of being rewarded for it and constantly showered with attention. These types of women thrive on getting attention for their appearance and using that as a mechanic of wielding power over others.

The question is how successful has it been and what is the incentive to behave otherwise.

[mgggb]

Personally, it is just a matter of saving time. Online dating makes the dating process incredibly efficient. I'm in decent shape, but I'm no Adonis. How many hours a day would I have to be in the gym to be the male equivalent of some bombshell chick? My guess is 3+- hours to maintain. Now, if she's spending that much time in the gym, my question is how many hours is she spending on reading, self knowledge, personality, charity, etc. A beautiful woman can do very well in the world without any of that.

 

From there its just a matter of statistics. How many children of billionaires develop a strong work ethic and learn the value of a dollar through hard work and discipline? Probably very few.

 

How many drop dead gorgeous women will take the time and put in the effort to develop a good personality, self knowledge, and be well read when they can do just fine in the world without it? Probably very few.

[David Ottinger]

If you're seeking validation (i.e. sense of self worth) from someone else, then I can see that risk-vs-reward perspective being true.  But, if you take the sales approach where one doesn't impose intent upon the potential client because you understand it is simply a numbers game, then you approach freely and with the intention of building rapport and seeing where it goes from there (i.e. no prejudices) -- which appears a lot more difficult for guys online. So, unless you're looking to troll, maybe with this being the online world it's best to put yourself out there in the best light possible and leave it up to the girls to do the approaching?