Confronting Child Abusers in Public Space

[D.D.]

I learned a lesson regarding how one should not confront child abusers when in a public space.  My experience is to not engage with the abuser but to simply ask the abuser politely (of course) to not abuse the child, and end it there!  The response to this confrontation is the focus of this single post.  Here is a copy of an email I sent to Michaels (the art and craft store) regarding a confrontation I had with another customer which resulted in being bullied by an employee of Michaels.

 

 

 

The following regards Joel physically intimidating and verbally insulting (bullying) a customer:

On July 15, 2016, at approximately 1:15pm, I had a confrontation with another customer who I witnessed threatening her young child with physical abuse, twice. This confrontation led to the customer threatening me with physical abuse.

As a result, a black haired, over-weight, male named Joel confronted me at the store exit as I was leaving after my purchase. I stopped to ask him "Is there a problem?" since he was staring me down. He verified with me that I had everything I needed.

We parted ways and as I opened my door to my car, I had seen that Joel had followed me out to the parking lot. I said to Joel, "It's okay Joel" but he started to walk towards me before I sat down in my car to leave. I then continued to explain my side of the confrontation with the other customer regarding how she threatened her young, unarmed child.

He told me to "leave" and "walk away" as I was standing inside my cars opened door attempting to leave before he confronted me. After I said "I was the one walking away", he then said "You made a fucking mother cry in front of her kid, you proud of yourself you big, strong, man!"

I replied "Ah, you're overlooking the fact that she threatened..." and then he cut me off with "I ain't overlooking shit, get in your car and drive away". I asked "Why are you talking to me this way?" but he walked away from me and I was then free to leave.

 

I will not be pressing charges against Joel at this time. I would prefer to give the Corporation of Michaels the opportunity to handle this as an internal issue. I think this is a great opportunity for training/education.

I am also making you aware since I suspect, based on his behaviour with a customer, that he may be treating co-workers with even less kindness, curiosity, professionalism, and understanding. I have said conversation with Joel recorded and am willing to email a copy to you if you would like to hear the evidence against him.

 

I would also like to send my apologies to everyone else in the store who heard or witnessed my confrontation with the other customer. I understand that Michaels is a place of business but anyone who turns a blind eye to abusers are collaborators.

 

I will not be shopping at this Michaels store location. I'm sorry but I will not expose myself to a potential attack by Joel or child abuse collaborators, nor should I have to be hyper-vigilant when shopping at this location.

 

Regards.

 

On a positive note, this experience has given me a deeper understanding of my anger and how it is the root cause of most of my problems.  I'm not implying that the abusers get off "scott-free" but that I'm taking actions to correct problems and therefore the ripple effects.  I recently purchased Anger and Forgiveness by Raymond Lloyd Richmond, Ph.D., a sample of the contents can be viewed @ http://www.guidetopsychology.com/af3.htm which also appears to explain how my nail biting, hair playing, pacing, and other habits formed may be connected to anger through OCD.

 

Of course, Stef made me aware of this idea regarding anger in pod-cast http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/2444/freedomain-radio-call-in-show-august-4th-2013 @ ~2:19:23 in which he says, "The anger against your abusers is perfectly healthy. The danger of the anger is that it can draw you back into wanting to fix, rage against, act against your abusers."  Mapping my history with anger is my self-appointed homework for the next 2 weeks before going over this with my therapist.  This is my key and I'm excited to have it and cleanup what is behind the door(s).

 

 

[DaVinci]

I'm sorry you went through that. I've never been in this situation but I think you did the right thing confronting the parent. 

[Wuzzums]

I'm glad you were there for the child.

[shirgall]

I learned a lesson regarding how one should not confront child abusers when in a public space.  My experience is to not engage with the abuser but to simply ask the abuser politely (of course) to not abuse the child, and end it there!  The response to this confrontation is the focus of this single post. 

 

Thank you very much for confronting the abuser. I don't know the best way to deal with the white knight that came to the mother's rescue, but indeed that has always been one of my fears would happen in such a situation. I don't know if just saying, "She was wrong" would work to defuse the situation, and clearly there's no time to say something more complex when he's cutting you off like that.

[Tyler H]

I learned a lesson regarding how one should not confront child abusers when in a public space.  My experience is to not engage with the abuser but to simply ask the abuser politely (of course) to not abuse the child, and end it there! 

First let me say dude, BRA-VO! That took courage and you should be immensely proud of yourself. I tip my hat to you.  For more just and well deserved praise along with what I think is some good advice to keep in mind when confronting abusers here is a call I listened to recently.  The relevant material starts ~32 min. in.

[dsayers]

I don't know the best way to deal with the white knight that came to the mother's rescue, but indeed that has always been one of my fears would happen in such a situation. I don't know if just saying, "She was wrong" would work to defuse the situation, and clearly there's no time to say something more complex when he's cutting you off like that.

I think if it were me, I would've said that he's protecting somebody who was threatening a defenseless, dependent, not-there-by-choice child, which is received as a death threat since their survival depends on NOT being harmed by their caregivers.

 

About a month ago, I was in a parking lot waiting for a tow truck to arrive. I saw a woman yelling at her son. You could tell her fire was only as high as it was because he was male and "could take it." When I caught her attention and told her that she doesn't want to yell at the boy, she angrily retorted, "You're not his father." Since I could see that there was no rationalizing with her, I just turned to the boy and told him that it's not okay for people to yell at one another and that I was sorry his own mother would humiliate him like that.

 

To me, the purpose of intervening is to provide a counter-example. To interrupt the narrative and to interrupt the process of normalizing or internalizing the abuse. Those of us who have been abused know how powerful it is to literally believe that what you're being presented with is okay. It's something that can stay with you long into your adult life, rippling and causing untold levels of destruction.

[MysterionMuffles]

Allow me to share with you some of my experiences.

 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/42792-child-abuse-at-work-and-lying-to-abusers/

 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/43119-subtle-and-childish-child-abuse-at-work

 

What I've learned from a conversation with a few friends is that the more emphasis we put onto shaming the parent, and less empathizing with the children, the more we're doing it out of vengeance against possibly our own abusers as opposed for the care of the children themselves.

 

It's been a while since those two threads I posted, and I've learned a lot since then. I think addressing the child at the moment of verbal abuse and being nice to them is a good way to intervene because what are parents gonna say? "STOP BEING NICE TO MY KID?!" But in the case of physical aggression...it's tough. Not sure much we can do because unfortunately you prying a parent shameless enough to phsyically abuse their child in public can get defensive, and you can end up getting into an altercation where you may be seen as the aggressor. Even though you are just trying to defend a child.

 

It's tough shit man...

[shirgall]

I think if it were me, I would've said that he's protecting somebody who was threatening a defenseless, dependent, not-there-by-choice child, which is received as a death threat since their survival depends on NOT being harmed by their caregivers.

 

About a month ago, I was in a parking lot waiting for a tow truck to arrive. I saw a woman yelling at her son. You could tell her fire was only as high as it was because he was male and "could take it." When I caught her attention and told her that she doesn't want to yell at the boy, she angrily retorted, "You're not his father." Since I could see that there was no rationalizing with her, I just turned to the boy and told him that it's not okay for people to yell at one another and that I was sorry his own mother would humiliate him like that.

 

To me, the purpose of intervening is to provide a counter-example. To interrupt the narrative and to interrupt the process of normalizing or internalizing the abuse. Those of us who have been abused know how powerful it is to literally believe that what you're being presented with is okay. It's something that can stay with you long into your adult life, rippling and causing untold levels of destruction.

 

A fair answer, I think I felt constrained by the bully interrupting and cutting off the speaker.

 

Thank *you* as well for confronting an abuser.

[aviet]

I learned a lesson regarding how one should not confront child abusers when in a public space. 

Do you feel at liberty to share the details of the confrontation? I'd be interested to get a glimpse into what made them cry.

 

I wouldn't necessarily see this as a way not to confront them. You have gone way out of your comfort zone and put yourself at risk. I'm not sure what transpired, but that you made the woman cry could be a sign that she may give your words some credence. I am presuming that such a woman would not be considered intelligent in any category and I think that such people are probably more susceptible to criticism. For example, if someone walked up to me in the street and told me I was ugly, I would consider it a strong experience. Its something I would likely remember for the rest of my days. You've probably given her one of those. She may become more bitter, go on as before, but there is also a possibility of some reflection. If people confronted these people routinely, they would have little choice but to conform and modify their behaviour to at least not threatening and attacking their children in public.

 

I just turned to the boy and told him that it's not okay for people to yell at one another and that I was sorry his own mother would humiliate him like that.

This could be a potentially more powerful experience to give someone. From what I've heard, children who undergo domestic abuse seem to normalise the situation and think life is the same for everyone. If I was a child in that position, someone explaining that what the abuser is doing is not OK and that it is not normal would probably be a life changing experience and offer a chink of hope. It seems like it would probably be more fruitful than dressing down the abuser.

[AccuTron]

...This could be a potentially more powerful experience to give someone. From what I've heard, children who undergo domestic abuse seem to normalise the situation and think life is the same for everyone. If I was a child in that position, someone explaining that what the abuser is doing is not OK and that it is not normal would probably be a life changing experience and offer a chink of hope. It seems like it would probably be more fruitful than dressing down the abuser.

 

I had a ton of non-stop child abuse, and NOT ONE adult ever said anything to me.  I realize it would have been awkward at best, and they'd have to get past my mother's bullying wall of denial.  Anything said to my parents would have been pointless, since they were unrepentant abusers.  I realize now that if ONE adult had said something about how I was treated being not okay, it would have been very powerful, it would have given me a type of hope, a tool.  I would still have been up against ruthless creeps, but I would have heard an opinion of injustice.  As it was, I only internalized that I was a bad person.

[Drew.]

I learned a lesson regarding how one should not confront child abusers when in a public space.  My experience is to not engage with the abuser but to simply ask the abuser politely (of course) to not abuse the child, and end it there!  The response to this confrontation is the focus of this single post.  Here is a copy of an email I sent to Michaels (the art and craft store) regarding a confrontation I had with another customer which resulted in being bullied by an employee of Michaels.

 

 

On a positive note, this experience has given me a deeper understanding of my anger and how it is the root cause of most of my problems.  I'm not implying that the abusers get off "scott-free" but that I'm taking actions to correct problems and therefore the ripple effects.  I recently purchased Anger and Forgiveness by Raymond Lloyd Richmond, Ph.D., a sample of the contents can be viewed @ http://www.guidetopsychology.com/af3.htm which also appears to explain how my nail biting, hair playing, pacing, and other habits formed may be connected to anger through OCD.

 

Of course, Stef made me aware of this idea regarding anger in pod-cast http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/2444/freedomain-radio-call-in-show-august-4th-2013 @ ~2:19:23 in which he says, "The anger against your abusers is perfectly healthy. The danger of the anger is that it can draw you back into wanting to fix, rage against, act against your abusers."  Mapping my history with anger is my self-appointed homework for the next 2 weeks before going over this with my therapist.  This is my key and I'm excited to have it and cleanup what is behind the door(s).

 

That is quite the reaction that this man had. I'm sorry that you had to experience that. It must have been very intimidating. He likely has illusions about the goodness of his own mother--if he is over-weight, then he has been abused/neglected somehow, and most people experience trauma, anyway--and you challenged them, so he did what he thought was right and would earn his mother's love that he has never truly received before.

 

How did you confront this woman? I want to applaud you for standing up for the child. When I have intervened, no one has ever cried. I witnessed a friend intervene once, and he was particularly aggressive about it. He shouted something to the effect of "HEY! Don't hit your kid!" across a fast-food restaurant dining area. It got really tense, and the guy wanted to fight. I am super glad that it didn't come to that.

 

Seriously, though. It takes a great deal of courage to confront someone who is about to abuse their child. Good for you. I think that there are ways to go about it that will leave with the least amount of risk for yourself and still yield the desired effect in a child.

[D.D.]

For more just and well deserved praise along with what I think is some good advice to keep in mind when confronting abusers here is a call I listened to recently.  The relevant material starts ~32 min. in.

Thanks Tyler for the link, it was a useful listen and it helped me not feel alone like I did that day.  This thread helps also, it's one reason I started it.

 

Do you feel at liberty to share the details of the confrontation? I'd be interested to get a glimpse into what made them cry.

 

If people confronted these people routinely, they would have little choice but to conform and modify their behaviour to at least not threatening and attacking their children in public.

The confrontation with the mother took place in two separate occasions.

The first one was when she threatened her child twice in front of me because the child was stepping on her heels.  My experience was that you really only get one chance (the element of surprise) to say something quickly with an explosive person nearby.  Even then she yelled over me to "mind my own business" in a "trying to be polite" kind of way, even though I could see the turmoil under the surface of her twisted face.

 

The second time was as I was passing by on my way to the cashier.  Here I introduced myself to the child and started to explain that I was sorry her mother hits her and that I'm not okay with that behavior....but the element of surprise was gone and she went into "mother bear" mode while yelling at me.  Because this was the second time, the mother thought I was harassing her and even asked some store employees (all female) nearby to do something about me but one of them said they understand there's an issue but this wasn't the place.  This is when the mother told the store employees that she was going to smack me.  I said "There it is again, you keep on threatening me."  From her perception, I was the one attacking her.  Then she said "I will hit you, do you want me to smack you?" as she came back around to me.  I never moved from my position except to turn around to face her with a body language that said "I'll defend myself."  She continued to yell things like "What gives you the right?", "What title do you have?", "Are you a psychologist, do you have children", and "You're a moron" as I walked away, to which I yelled back "You're evil!".

 

This was all recorded but it's a hard listen; I have reservations posting it.  These are the days we live in and so it may be best to act accordingly.

 

"...at least not threatening and attacking their children in public."  You'd think they would go "underground" but these kind of people are hot tempered, haven't solved the root-cause, and so eventually F*** it up.

 

What I've learned from a conversation with a few friends is that the more emphasis we put onto shaming the parent, and less empathizing with the children, the more we're doing it out of vengeance against possibly our own abusers as opposed for the care of the children themselves.

 

I think addressing the child at the moment of verbal abuse and being nice to them is a good way to intervene because what are parents gonna say? "STOP BEING NICE TO MY KID?!" But in the case of physical aggression...it's tough. Not sure much we can do because unfortunately you prying a parent shameless enough to phsyically abuse their child in public can get defensive, and you can end up getting into an altercation where you may be seen as the aggressor. Even though you are just trying to defend a child.

 

Yes, it is hard to walk away and not be emotional about this due to past issues and I should have gone a different way to the cashier to avoid this level of intensity; vengeance was pumping my heart a little.  Shaming the parent was not my intention, the child was the one I was talking to but then I switched to the mother especially when she threatened me.  If the mother hadn't been so explosive, we could have talked without the whole store hearing us.

 

I witnessed a friend intervene once, and he was particularly aggressive about it. He shouted something to the effect of "HEY! Don't hit your kid!" across a fast-food restaurant dining area. It got really tense, and the guy wanted to fight. I am super glad that it didn't come to that.

 

All I saw from the male employee was the same stuff I've seen my whole life from men who are prepared to get physical, sadly even my own father who I learned a few tricks from.  I'm not talking about the "bumping uglies" kind of way; not my style

After I asked him, "Is there a problem?" he said something like "It looks like you got everything you wanted," as he stepped into my motherfucking personal space!  I held his stare as I said that I did calmly, expecting him to hit me.  In the moment, I thought he was talking about what I purchased.  It was only in the parking lot when I found out about the mother crying.  He said something like "Then you'll be leaving now," and I agreed and did so.  The original post contains what occurred in the parking lot after that.

 

to everyone for their support, their own experiences, and feedback as to how to handle such a situation.  It appears we agree that the focus should be on the child seeing that outsiders empathize with them and not the caregiver(s).  This kind of confrontation is not for everyone but as I said to the cashier, "Somebody's gotta say something."

 

From what I'm learning about anger, anger is not really an emotion but an emotional reaction to vulnerability, humiliation, powerlessness, etc. type of feelings that are triggered from a perceived attack / threat.  We react quickly and skip over the original feelings and try to get back our loss of power by directly attacking the "thing" that we perceived to have attacked / threatened us or we can even express anger indirectly by taking it out on someone innocent or an object like a T.V..  I say "thing" because it includes inanimate objects like a rock that you tripped on; not "the rock tripped you."  I think this helps explain, though I'm not saying for sure, why the mother and the male store employee acted so aggressively towards me.

[Drew.]

Thanks Tyler for the link, it was a useful listen and it helped me not feel alone like I did that day.  This thread helps also, it's one reason I started it.

 

The confrontation with the mother took place in two separate occasions.

The first one was when she threatened her child twice in front of me because the child was stepping on her heels.  My experience was that you really only get one chance (the element of surprise) to say something quickly with an explosive person nearby.  Even then she yelled over me to "mind my own business" in a "trying to be polite" kind of way, even though I could see the turmoil under the surface of her twisted face.

 

The second time was as I was passing by on my way to the cashier.  Here I introduced myself to the child and started to explain that I was sorry her mother hits her and that I'm not okay with that behavior....but the element of surprise was gone and she went into "mother bear" mode while yelling at me.  Because this was the second time, the mother thought I was harassing her and even asked some store employees (all female) nearby to do something about me but one of them said they understand there's an issue but this wasn't the place.  This is when the mother told the store employees that she was going to smack me.  I said "There it is again, you keep on threatening me."  From her perception, I was the one attacking her.  Then she said "I will hit you, do you want me to smack you?" as she came back around to me.  I never moved from my position except to turn around to face her with a body language that said "I'll defend myself."  She continued to yell things like "What gives you the right?", "What title do you have?", "Are you a psychologist, do you have children", and "You're a moron" as I walked away, to which I yelled back "You're evil!".

 

This was all recorded but it's a hard listen; I have reservations posting it.  These are the days we live in and so it may be best to act accordingly.

 

"...at least not threatening and attacking their children in public."  You'd think they would go "underground" but these kind of people are hot tempered, haven't solved the root-cause, and so eventually F*** it up.

 

 

Yes, it is hard to walk away and not be emotional about this due to past issues and I should have gone a different way to the cashier to avoid this level of intensity; vengeance was pumping my heart a little.  Shaming the parent was not my intention, the child was the one I was talking to but then I switched to the mother especially when she threatened me.  If the mother hadn't been so explosive, we could have talked without the whole store hearing us.

 

 

All I saw from the male employee was the same stuff I've seen my whole life from men who are prepared to get physical, sadly even my own father who I learned a few tricks from.  I'm not talking about the "bumping uglies" kind of way; not my style

After I asked him, "Is there a problem?" he said something like "It looks like you got everything you wanted," as he stepped into my motherfucking personal space!  I held his stare as I said that I did calmly, expecting him to hit me.  In the moment, I thought he was talking about what I purchased.  It was only in the parking lot when I found out about the mother crying.  He said something like "Then you'll be leaving now," and I agreed and did so.  The original post contains what occurred in the parking lot after that.

 

to everyone for their support, their own experiences, and feedback as to how to handle such a situation.  It appears we agree that the focus should be on the child seeing that outsiders empathize with them and not the caregiver(s).  This kind of confrontation is not for everyone but as I said to the cashier, "Somebody's gotta say something."

 

From what I'm learning about anger, anger is not really an emotion but an emotional reaction to vulnerability, humiliation, powerlessness, etc. type of feelings that are triggered from a perceived attack / threat.  We react quickly and skip over the original feelings and try to get back our loss of power by directly attacking the "thing" that we perceived to have attacked / threatened us or we can even express anger indirectly by taking it out on someone innocent or an object like a T.V..  I say "thing" because it includes inanimate objects like a rock that you tripped on; not "the rock tripped you."  I think this helps explain, though I'm not saying for sure, why the mother and the male store employee acted so aggressively towards me.

 

Thank you for sharing what happened in your approach. We certainly cannot control the actions and feelings of another person, but our approach does have some influence. I do not see anything wrong with your approach. The response that you got from them woman was her own dysfunction. I am so terribly sorry that you had to experience that. That poor child, too. I am so glad and grateful that you explicitly told the child that what their mother was doing was not okay. Obviously, you mentioned that you had a desire for vengeance. That probably seeped through in your interaction with her, which may have helped aid the escalation of the situation. If you're in therapy, that would be a valuable topic to explore. If you're not in therapy, I would be honored to work with you if you are interested.

 

Anger is so much more than a reaction to powerlessness, humiliation, etc. Anger is a motivating emotion, and yes, it is often a response to a negative event. You are right, though. Anger is often a tool that we use to distract ourselves from emotions that we don't want to feel. Likely, this woman wants to avoid the pain, shame, and humiliation of what happened to her as a child and what she is inflicting upon her own child. These people do not represent healthy relationships with anger. There is a time and place for it, and a level that is appropriate for each situation. I wrote an article about anger if you would like to check it out on my website (the link to it is in my signature).

 

I wish you the best. Keep doing what you're doing. You'll get better at it. And what a rush it is! I lived in Alaska for a time, and intervened twice in two days. My dreams were incredible those nights.

[dsayers]

This kind of confrontation is not for everyone

I must push back on this. Telling people what they cannot do--language that only serves to make those who partake smaller--is what an abuser would do. I believe you meant no harm, but this is very important to understand.

 

Not only is this something that everybody can do, but I would argue it potentially has the greatest effort:yield of anything else we could do to combat child abuse and save the world.

 

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that the beauty of it is that they're total strangers. Even if somebody should botch it because they're unpracticed at it, it's not like they could cause direct harm to the child. By trying, and consulting with one another as you have, we can all get better at it.

[brucethecollie]

Big kudos to those who stand up for children. I've never seen anyone do it in public. I've done it twice. It is a very hard thing for me to do and I wish that the times I've done it I had presented more confidence, but I suppose it is important to say something when it matters, even if you are shaking.

 

I agree that even directing words to a child is helpful--in fact I know it is. I had a friend in middle school who told me about how her dad would call her things like "a little shit" or "brat" or "pain in the ass". She laughed about it a little and I just looked at her with sadness. We lost touch but in high school we had the chance to speak again and I asked about how things were with her dad. She said that she was glad she got into a far off college so she would never have to see him again. Then she said that about a year earlier, a woman confronted her father at a grocery store and asked him why he was speaking to his daughter that way. He cussed her out and told her to mind her own business. The women then turned to her and said, "Sweetheart, this isn't decent, it isn't right. Seek people who can tell you and show you what goodness is." This friend said that what that woman said gave her the motivation to apply to an out of state school and to "get the hell out" of her house. She told me she was done with shitty people and looked forward to finding good people to hang out with. It really is something I think about when I'm scared to speak up.

 

That said, both times I spoke up it didn't go well. One woman told me, "I oughta beat YOUR ass!" Another woman looked at me in a very intimidating way. Due to these experiences I don't say anything when my children are with me. What I do is I tell my children we need to leave right away. They understand why, they are horrified at this kind of behavior. And the other parent hopefully feels embarrassed. I don't know if this is a good idea but I currently don't feel safe confronting certain types. I once had an angry woman pull a bat out on me in traffic (yes, she got out of her car) for accidentally cutting her off. I'm not proud of not saying anything and need to work on the fear aspect while also allowing myself the right to discern when fear and self preservation is appropriate. Just looking at a dad smacking his son on the bottom made him stand up and walk menacingly towards me so he could say, "WHAT?" 

 

Anyway, very cool to read about people speaking up and what it is some of you have said. Taking notes here...

[dsayers]

I agree that even directing words to a child is helpful--in fact I know it is. I had a friend in middle school who told me about how her dad would call her things like "a little shit" or "brat" or "pain in the ass". She laughed about it a little and I just looked at her with sadness. We lost touch but in high school we had the chance to speak again and I asked about how things were with her dad. She said that she was glad she got into a far off college so she would never have to see him again. Then she said that about a year earlier, a woman confronted her father at a grocery store and asked him why he was speaking to his daughter that way. He cussed her out and told her to mind her own business. The women then turned to her and said, "Sweetheart, this isn't decent, it isn't right. Seek people who can tell you and show you what goodness is." This friend said that what that woman said gave her the motivation to apply to an out of state school and to "get the hell out" of her house.

Thank you for sharing that. It's amazing how much a single seed can alter the landscape.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think being shaky while addressing a child abuser is a bad thing. Sure it might signal weakness to the abusive person, but it also demonstrates fear to the child. The child who might otherwise think that the behavior is normal will see that GROWN FOLKS are terrified of such behavior. What an impact that would have in helping them to explore that fear is a healthy response instead of just accepting it as if THEY are the ones who screwed up.

[brucethecollie]

Thank you for sharing that. It's amazing how much a single seed can alter the landscape.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think being shaky while addressing a child abuser is a bad thing. Sure it might signal weakness to the abusive person, but it also demonstrates fear to the child. The child who might otherwise think that the behavior is normal will see that GROWN FOLKS are terrified of such behavior. What an impact that would have in helping them to explore that fear is a healthy response instead of just accepting it as if THEY are the ones who screwed up.

 

That makes perfect sense. Validation. Thanks for that insight!

[D.D.]

Telling people what they cannot do--language that only serves to make those who partake smaller--is what an abuser would do. I believe you meant no harm, but this is very important to understand.

 

this something that everybody can do

Please allow me to correct

When I typed "This kind of confrontation is not for everyone," I am referring to those occasions where the individual, who wants to confront an abuser, may not do so because they themselves may not feel like they're in a strong and safe position to do so.  The decision to confront an abuser or not, that's up to the individual, as shown in the quote below:

Due to these experiences I don't say anything when my children are with me. And the other parent hopefully feels embarrassed. I don't know if this is a good idea but I currently don't feel safe confronting certain types. I once had an angry woman pull a bat out on me in traffic (yes, she got out of her car) for accidentally cutting her off. I'm not proud of not saying anything and need to work on the fear aspect while also allowing myself the right to discern when fear and self preservation is appropriate.

 

 

I wouldn't say that I'm, "Telling [board members] what they cannot do", in fact, this post and the links, has provided an opportunity for board members to say what they can and cannot do, while providing the context in which they made their decision.  This includes the development of a methodology for handling such a confrontation and the internalization of these experiences so that more board members will feel like they're in a strong and safe position to confront abusers.

 

Really, I am and we are, "Telling [abusers] what they cannot do."

[dsayers]

Yes. I indicated that I believed you meant no harm. It is a shame that you didn't find my feedback to be useful. Meaning you might later speak in such a way that might again send the opposite signal of what you intended

[D.D.]

 It is a shame that you didn't find my feedback to be useful. Meaning you might later speak in such a way that might again send the opposite signal of what you intended

If I'm correct and you're referring to the following feedback,

 

Telling people what they cannot do--language that only serves to make those who partake smaller--is what an abuser would do.

then could you clarify it for me?  I'm now thinking you're informing me that if my preference is to confront an abuser without becoming abusive myself, then it would be preferable to use language that isn't emotionally charged, such as "Hey, you cannot do that!"  Am I closer to the mark?

[dsayers]

Am I closer to the mark?

No, sir. I apologize if my feedback was at all ambiguous. I'll try to elaborate here.

 

Imagine there is a person here on FDR who grew up in an abusive, traumatic home. They've found FDR, they're exploring self-knowledge, they accept the evils of child abuse, but think themselves too small to make a difference or too timid or unpracticed or whatever seeds of doubt and attack their abusers have left in them that they might use as an excuse to not get involved.

 

Now imagine they read a post saying that confronting child abuse in public places isn't for everybody. From their perspective, you've validated their defeatist approach. I would wager this wasn't at all your intention. So my feedback was to encourage you to be more careful with how you express such things. Then I went on to try and counteract it by showing it's not only for everybody, but it's low risk and will potentially have substantial yield even in their own lives.

 

I hope that's cleared up my push back. If not, please let me know if/where/how I can elaborate further. I do appreciate you taking the time to try and understand feedback you're being offered.

[D.D.]

Ah, great, thanks for stepping me through the logic.  Now I'm thinking I should have just ask for better clarification when I had doubts in the first place, I'll learn.

[Toys4]

Thanks to all of you who have stand up for these children being assaulted and put down in public. I know by doing it you put yourself in a position to get verbally lacerated (and potentially worse with how nuts people are.) by abusive parents and jerks, but you have my respect a support, I hope that can make you all feel better, because It sucks that these children have it happen to them, it sucks that we have to witness it and it sucks that when you do the right thing like stand up for a child you get attacked to. But I believe that if standing up for the child and being kind to the child, and telling the child that the abuse that they are receiving is not okay is a great thing to do and worth it. Be watchful and be safe.

[Stan Hunter]

It's something that can stay with you long into your adult life, rippling and causing untold levels of destruction.

 

Indeed. I think this can have a profound effect. 

 

I never had the pleasure of having someone confirm that what I experienced was wrong, -not directly anyway. 

 

It was observing what happens when my friends got in trouble. They had very different experiences. No shouting or hitting or threats of broken bones. 

 

There was one event where my father smashed one of my toys into tiny pieces right in front of me, he was in a rage because I ran across a neighbors yard and the neighbor complained. I simply ran away to my grandmother's house, a few miles away. I was in pieces, I could hardly breath with the adrenaline and hard sobbing I was doing. What really stuck with me though was that I overheard her make a phone call to my dad. She said "you think you're being a little extreme perhaps?". In the context of this community, that certainly wasn't enough, but it gave me a shred to hold onto. 

[Tyler H]

Indeed. I think this can have a profound effect. 

 

I never had the pleasure of having someone confirm that what I experienced was wrong, -not directly anyway. 

 

It was observing what happens when my friends got in trouble. They had very different experiences. No shouting or hitting or threats of broken bones. 

 

There was one event where my father smashed one of my toys into tiny pieces right in front of me, he was in a rage because I ran across a neighbors yard and the neighbor complained. I simply ran away to my grandmother's house, a few miles away. I was in pieces, I could hardly breath with the adrenaline and hard sobbing I was doing. What really stuck with me though was that I overheard her make a phone call to my dad. She said "you think you're being a little extreme perhaps?". In the context of this community, that certainly wasn't enough, but it gave me a shred to hold onto. 

I really connected with your experience, thank you for sharing and I am so, sooo sorry.  My deepest sympathies.

[thebeardslastcall]

I witnessed some child abuse yesterday. A parent was strong arming her child and being verbally harsh because they weren't acting how she wanted in public (at a library). I didn't have the courage to step up and say anything, but did send an unpleasant gaze at the parent as I considered action and wished to convey my disapproval of the parent, even if only in a much lesser fashion, which child and parent were both blind to likely, but others may have seen.

 

Afterwards I was left thinking of what I might have done and could have done if I were well prepared for such a situation. One thought I had was having some sort of card or pamphlet to give parents in a non-confrontational way that would introduce them to the principles of peaceful parenting and/or direct them to such resources. This would also mean having a good place online setup to have these resources and to direct people to videos, books, and the like to help them learn about how to be a better parent. De-normalizing the abuse I agree would be helpful, but particularly for younger children, if you can get the parent to change their ways that's many years of abuse spared instead of having to suffer for another 10+ years before they can escape. With stepping in to say something, I was thinking saying something simple like "Your child isn't evil and you can do better" and handing the pamphlet may be effective, or simply handing them the pamphlet and saying nothing or saying something non-confrontational like "please read and look into this". Has any such resource been made that would make stepping in easier and more effective while minimizing the danger for those less willing to be more confrontational? With such a resource people interested in helping could order or printout some pamphlets and have them on hand to hand out when child abuse occurs or simply to hand out to parents whenever they feel like spreading the message even if no child abuse has occurred as a more preventative measure or to handle the more hidden abuse.

 

Edit: Also why doesn't FDR website have on the front page or easily accessible from the front page a link to resources for peaceful parenting? Could have a link to an introduction to peaceful parenting and links to related podcasts, videos, and books. That would show that FDR considers peaceful parenting to be a top issue.

[D.D.]

I think those are some ideas you may want to try out.

Let us know how it goes.

 

Regarding FDR considering peaceful parenting as a top priority, I believe FDR promotes "philosophy" as a top priority because through philosophy, peaceful parenting is logical.

[Lotus Flowery]

I agree with those who have said talk to the child instead of the parent, and let him/her know that it is not OK that he/she is being abused. This would be life changing for the child.

[Mister Mister]

Indeed. I think this can have a profound effect. 

 

I never had the pleasure of having someone confirm that what I experienced was wrong, -not directly anyway. 

 

It was observing what happens when my friends got in trouble. They had very different experiences. No shouting or hitting or threats of broken bones. 

 

There was one event where my father smashed one of my toys into tiny pieces right in front of me, he was in a rage because I ran across a neighbors yard and the neighbor complained. I simply ran away to my grandmother's house, a few miles away. I was in pieces, I could hardly breath with the adrenaline and hard sobbing I was doing. What really stuck with me though was that I overheard her make a phone call to my dad. She said "you think you're being a little extreme perhaps?". In the context of this community, that certainly wasn't enough, but it gave me a shred to hold onto. 

 

  Yea that's fucking awful, I'm sorry.

 

  This brings into focus the issue of, what are you trying to achieve by intervening?  Are you trying to change the parent's mind in the moment or in the future?  Or are you indirectly sending a message to the child that there is opposition to the parents' behavior somewhere out there in society, as well as sympathy for their pain.  Not that it has to be one or the other, but I think the latter is a far more likely result, so it's something to keep in mind.  Appreciate your story Stan, it's very helpful and encouraging in a certain way.

[CalebSC]

Sometimes you should just call the cops. One time when I was in Wal-Mart and there was a woman with "Super Bitch" tattooed on her arm and she was shaking her fist right in front of her boys's face. The boys had bruises on their faces already. I discreetly followed them out to their car and took a picture of the car and the license plate. Then I went back in to the customer service area and asked the people there to call the police and take note of the register she used to check out. When the cop got there I told him everything I saw and gave him the license plate number and showed him the picture of the car.

Even though they probably didn't go out to make an arrest, they make records of these things, and maybe at some point in time she will get arrested for child abuse and this record can be used as evidence.

You guys are doing great in what you're talking about, but just keep in mind that hitting someone in the face is a criminal offense, and there is only one type of person qualified to deal with criminal offenses. You're not qualified to deal with criminal offenses. Child Protection services is not qualified to deal with criminal offenses. Only POLICE OFFICERS are qualified to deal with criminal offenses.

[kavih]

You should be proud of yourself for confronting an abuser. You all have said a lot and I agree with many sides being presented. We should be able to come up with solutions that are sticking up for the child, confronting the abuser, and yet not escalating the situation through confronting them.

 

During my last confrontation, I think I got lucky, because the woman immediately felt bad after I confronted her. I say lucky because I think many other abusers could have responded with further anger towards me with what I said, especially since we were in public. The scenario was this: I was at the zoo and amongst all the kids and parents, there was a grandma who was slapping her 13 year old grandson on his arm extremely hard -- practically as hard as she could is what it looked like. I'm guessing about the relationship and his age, but he was only a few inches shorter than her and she looked to be in her 60s-70s. She was also yelling at him. He looked very frightened and embarrassed in front of so many people. Everyone was watching, but no one said anything. I finally stepped up to her and said, "I think you could have handled that better." The boy had already walked off with his friends/brothers at this point, but he did look back and hear me talking to her. She said with an apologetic and guilty voice/look, "I know...You're right... I know." So, I followed up by looking at the boy and then back at her and saying, "Maybe it's best if you apologize to him then, ya know?" She didn't say anything in return, but walked off towards him like a dog with it's tail between it's legs. I was too disgusted and angry to feel comfortable with "pushing the boundary" of my win with her, so I turned away from her and went back to the people I came there with, instead of continuing to watch her to see what she did afterwards. I wish I would have in hindsight though. I also wish I would have walked over to the boy and told him she overreacted and had no right to touch his body. It all happened in a matter of 10 seconds.

 

What do you guys think about this phrase towards a parent, as a follow up after first talking/empathizing with a child being abused: "Why don't you pick on someone your own size?" I see the phrase as being supportive of the child and it calls the parent out on "bullying." I know their anger may be directed back at me if I said it, but what else could they say that would really diffuse the fact that they are a bully? As long as the child hears that phrase, I think it will strike home with the child. I also think "picking on someone" can take the form of verbal aggression, so the phrase can be used in that scenario as well. Thoughts?

[thebeardslastcall]

"Why don't you pick on someone your own size?" I see the phrase as being supportive of the child and it calls the parent out on "bullying." 

 

It points out the size differential, but in a very aggressive and violent way I think. It's suggesting bullying someone is okay if it's a "fair fight". I don't think bullying someone is okay regardless of their ability to defend themselves. Bullying is merely much worse against a defenseless person, but wrong regardless, and seeing as the abuser has a problem with being overly violent, stoking their violent tendencies further would I think make things worse, not better. As someone who is adept at avoiding fights and tempering down people, I would never say anything of the kind, to imply a fight is okay or desired or to suggest beating them up would teach them anything. They've been getting in fights their whole lives and such behaviors are only inflaming their violent tendencies. I want to put out the fires, not redirect and embolden them.

[Drew.]

It points out the size differential, but in a very aggressive and violent way I think. It's suggesting bullying someone is okay if it's a "fair fight". I don't think bullying someone is okay regardless of their ability to defend themselves. Bullying is merely much worse against a defenseless person, but wrong regardless, and seeing as the abuser has a problem with being overly violent, stoking their violent tendencies further would I think make things worse, not better. As someone who is adept at avoiding fights and tempering down people, I would never say anything of the kind, to imply a fight is okay or desired or to suggest beating them up would teach them anything. They've been getting in fights their whole lives and such behaviors are only inflaming their violent tendencies. I want to put out the fires, not redirect and embolden them.

 

Yeah, I second being aware of the method and manner of approach and how aggressive it is. I had a friend shout out to a man who was striking his child in a fast food restaurant. Things escalated pretty quickly, and I thought that there might be violence directed toward us as a result of that exchange.

[kavih]

Right. I actually didn't mean that the phrase would be used with an aggressive tone, but I do see now how it comes off as validating "picking on someone," whether they are your size or not. My gut reaction when I first thought about saying it was that it would not work and would only come off as an escalating phrase, rather than a deescalating phrase. But, I wanted to run it by people here, since that's truly what I want to say, but I definitely wouldn't say it. Thanks for giving the feedback on it. Especially pointing out the way it validates picking on someone. My anger got in the way of me seeing that the first time.

[thecurrentyear]

Nah, I disagree. By telling an abuser to pick on someone their own size, you're pointing out that not only would they not do that, but if they did they would get put down. Because people instinctively defend themselves. And picking on someone smaller is the only way to ensure you don't get fought against. It is cowardly. Maybe I'm delusional, but I kind of think that the possibility of the abuser turning on the intervener or otherwise escalating the conflict is not such a bad thing. When done in public, it makes denial of abuse more difficult, alerts the community to their violent tendencies, makes them a social pariah, and may get the police involved. I could be wrong, but just where my thoughts went.