Benign Trivialities

[Nick900]

I find myself getting increasingly frustrated at trivial conversations about things I don't deem to be important. For example, someone telling me about a cake they bought or the fact they are redecorating part of their house a brighter shade of white. These topics seem to make me disproportionately frustrated and even angry at the fact they are the only conversations the people in question seem capable of having. Whenever I confront them on it or try to change the topic to something more in depth I usually get the "we can't all be clever" which further frustrates me because you don't need to be a genius to talk about something other than trivialities.

 

I don't have a problem talking non-philosophically-in-depth with some people, e.g. Valued friends but others, e.g. Unvalued friends and family I have no patience with. The question that comes to my mind while writing this is "why am I still talking to these people if I'm getting nothing of value from them?" And "am I right in trying to change people?" And "am I just using philosophy as a stick to beat people?"

[Will Torbald]

I usually get the "we can't all be clever" which further frustrates me because you don't need to be a genius to talk about something other than trivialities.

 

 

I've found in my experiece that you actually sort of have to, in a way. Normal people just can't process deep thinking without having their emotions broken soon after. It does take a higher intellect, and a stronger than average emotional core. The world is in such a dire state that not thinking about it is how people get by.

[neeeel]

I was listening to a podcast the other day where stef was talking ( about parents or authority figures, but I think it applies here) about how if a reaction to something seems wierd or exaggerated or out of place, there is probably something going on for the person having the reaction.

 

I wonder whats going on for you? How did your parents react when you tried to bring up some important ( to you) topic? Why is it important to you to talk to people about stuff other than trivialities? 

 

I would guess the "we cant all be clever" line is being used to try and bring you back into line, to socially control you and stop you from questioning things. It doesnt sound like they are giving you a compliment.

[Nick900]

I was listening to a podcast the other day where stef was talking ( about parents or authority figures, but I think it applies here) about how if a reaction to something seems wierd or exaggerated or out of place, there is probably something going on for the person having the reaction.

 

I wonder whats going on for you? How did your parents react when you tried to bring up some important ( to you) topic? Why is it important to you to talk to people about stuff other than trivialities? 

 

I would guess the "we cant all be clever" line is being used to try and bring you back into line, to socially control you and stop you from questioning things. It doesnt sound like they are giving you a compliment.

 

I've not had much success engaging them, it always feels more like a lecture since I'll begin with my bit and they'll squirm through it with "maybes" and generalities however it always feels like a one sided conversation that is usually over quickly. Whereas in a good conversation there would be back and forth questioning and a discussion, usually in the case of my parents it'll be my monologue followed by their monologue which will switch the topic and then it's over. In this case the "we can't all be clever" bit to end the conversation like you said.

 

To answer the other two questions, what was going on for me and why is it important to talk about stuff other than trivialities - well I was getting increasingly frustrated and bored during the conversation we were having (if it can be called that I may as well have not been there, a mirror could have played my part). I have a strong feeling my parents are not happy in the way they live their lives, my mother in particular does the whole running around after her mother thing. Part of me wants to wake her up to the miserable life that she's living, perhaps by getting her interested in deeper topics? With other people like my brother + some friends, I have absolutely no desire to talk to them about this stuff because I know they are not interested in it, I'm not entirely sure why I'm pushing it with my parents. 

[dsayers]

am I right in trying to change people?" And "am I just using philosophy as a stick to beat people?"

If you're not initiating the use of force, I don't see how "right" can be answered, nor how "beat" could apply.

 

You're changing everybody you interact with always. It might be negligible. It might not manifest today. It would be like asking if it's right to make a conscious effort to inhale through your nose and out through your mouth. You're breathing anyways, so what could be wrong in trying to make the most of it? Or developing good habits?

 

A quote I found recently that I quite like: "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." -Eleanor Roosevelt

[Rachelle]

Part of me wants to wake her up to the miserable life that she's living, perhaps by getting her interested in deeper topics? With other people like my brother + some friends, I have absolutely no desire to talk to them about this stuff because I know they are not interested in it, I'm not entirely sure why I'm pushing it with my parents. 

 

I can't know for sure, but It's more likely you're trying to get your parents interested in you not necessarily deeper topics. Deeper topics seem to be very important to you, so their choice to ignore that or not care basically translates into them not caring for you. That's not something easy for a person to accept and perhaps that's why you try so hard to get them to understand.

 

Your experience sounds incredibly painful and frustrating. I don't know if your parents are the one who are saying "we can't all be clever" but if they are or say anything that's similar to that then your reactions are not disproportionate. They're pushing you away/isolating you, like you're just too clever or too different for them to understand or connect with. Rather than admit they don't want to or care enough to put in the effort to connect or overcome their own internal obstacles keeping that connection from happening, they excuse themselves by just saying that it's impossible and that you're the one being irrational for trying the impossible. If this is in any way accurate then I'm sorry that that's been your experience.

[neeeel]

I've not had much success engaging them, it always feels more like a lecture since I'll begin with my bit and they'll squirm through it with "maybes" and generalities however it always feels like a one sided conversation that is usually over quickly. Whereas in a good conversation there would be back and forth questioning and a discussion, usually in the case of my parents it'll be my monologue followed by their monologue which will switch the topic and then it's over. In this case the "we can't all be clever" bit to end the conversation like you said.

 

To answer the other two questions, what was going on for me and why is it important to talk about stuff other than trivialities - well I was getting increasingly frustrated and bored during the conversation we were having (if it can be called that I may as well have not been there, a mirror could have played my part). I have a strong feeling my parents are not happy in the way they live their lives, my mother in particular does the whole running around after her mother thing. Part of me wants to wake her up to the miserable life that she's living, perhaps by getting her interested in deeper topics? With other people like my brother + some friends, I have absolutely no desire to talk to them about this stuff because I know they are not interested in it, I'm not entirely sure why I'm pushing it with my parents. 

 

I didnt realise that you were actually talking about your parents in the OP, that it was them you were having the conversations with. Its interesting that you state that you have no desire to talk to your brother and friends about it. I think that tells us something, since it seems obvious that your parents arent interested either. So it seems like "getting through" to your parents has more significance, which makes sense, but what significance does it have, what does it mean? Do you like/love your parents? Do you think they are nice people? Perhaps you believe that if you can get them interested and having conversations and learning self knowledge, they will become nice people?

[Nick900]

I can't know for sure, but It's more likely you're trying to get your parents interested in you not necessarily deeper topics. Deeper topics seem to be very important to you, so their choice to ignore that or not care basically translates into them not caring for you. That's not something easy for a person to accept and perhaps that's why you try so hard to get them to understand.

 

Your experience sounds incredibly painful and frustrating. I don't know if your parents are the one who are saying "we can't all be clever" but if they are or say anything that's similar to that then your reactions are not disproportionate. They're pushing you away/isolating you, like you're just too clever or too different for them to understand or connect with. Rather than admit they don't want to or care enough to put in the effort to connect or overcome their own internal obstacles keeping that connection from happening, they excuse themselves by just saying that it's impossible and that you're the one being irrational for trying the impossible. If this is in any way accurate then I'm sorry that that's been your experience.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head there, it is my parents who said this (the majority of the original post was with them in mind). This has happened a few times before and I can remember thinking "well you could read a book, watch a TV program, ask me about it, look on the internet ..." to learn something about anything other than trivialities, but they don't. 

 

I didnt realise that you were actually talking about your parents in the OP, that it was them you were having the conversations with. Its interesting that you state that you have no desire to talk to your brother and friends about it. I think that tells us something, since it seems obvious that your parents arent interested either. So it seems like "getting through" to your parents has more significance, which makes sense, but what significance does it have, what does it mean? Do you like/love your parents? Do you think they are nice people? Perhaps you believe that if you can get them interested and having conversations and learning self knowledge, they will become nice people?

 

I was listening to an old podcast #1003 and Stef flipped the no obligation argument on its head making the point that expecting our parents to take an interest is futile because there is no relationship there. Whereas it's often there's no obligation from child to parent, it's the same in the other direction. I don't particularly like/love them, they are 'ok', not terrible by any stretch, but boring. I guess I was thinking that if I could get them interested it would turn into a great relationship, but perhaps the time is better spent finding people closer to the standard rather than trying to change my parents. I don't have the compulsion to 'educate' every random person in the street on logic / relationships / etc, I guess I shouldn't have it for my parents either. 

[Drew.]

I find myself getting increasingly frustrated at trivial conversations about things I don't deem to be important. For example, someone telling me about a cake they bought or the fact they are redecorating part of their house a brighter shade of white. These topics seem to make me disproportionately frustrated and even angry at the fact they are the only conversations the people in question seem capable of having. Whenever I confront them on it or try to change the topic to something more in depth I usually get the "we can't all be clever" which further frustrates me because you don't need to be a genius to talk about something other than trivialities.

 

I don't have a problem talking non-philosophically-in-depth with some people, e.g. Valued friends but others, e.g. Unvalued friends and family I have no patience with. The question that comes to my mind while writing this is "why am I still talking to these people if I'm getting nothing of value from them?" And "am I right in trying to change people?" And "am I just using philosophy as a stick to beat people?"

 

I have had that experience before. I find it easier talking about the shallow stuff with other people, but I have my limits, especially when the other person has no capacity to engage at a deeper level. From my perspective, frustration is an emotion incites further effort in an attempt to change a situation. You are trying to change these people. I have never had any success changing another person, but I have had success with helping people change themselves.

 

I've not had much success engaging them, it always feels more like a lecture since I'll begin with my bit and they'll squirm through it with "maybes" and generalities however it always feels like a one sided conversation that is usually over quickly. Whereas in a good conversation there would be back and forth questioning and a discussion, usually in the case of my parents it'll be my monologue followed by their monologue which will switch the topic and then it's over. In this case the "we can't all be clever" bit to end the conversation like you said.

 

To answer the other two questions, what was going on for me and why is it important to talk about stuff other than trivialities - well I was getting increasingly frustrated and bored during the conversation we were having (if it can be called that I may as well have not been there, a mirror could have played my part). I have a strong feeling my parents are not happy in the way they live their lives, my mother in particular does the whole running around after her mother thing. Part of me wants to wake her up to the miserable life that she's living, perhaps by getting her interested in deeper topics? With other people like my brother + some friends, I have absolutely no desire to talk to them about this stuff because I know they are not interested in it, I'm not entirely sure why I'm pushing it with my parents. 

 

From their perspective, you really are beating them over the head with this philosophy stuff. People resent the fact that they have to conform to your ideas--even if they are true. I suspect that they just agree to end the conversation, that is what I have done the past when someone is lecturing me.

 

I can't know for sure, but It's more likely you're trying to get your parents interested in you not necessarily deeper topics. Deeper topics seem to be very important to you, so their choice to ignore that or not care basically translates into them not caring for you. That's not something easy for a person to accept and perhaps that's why you try so hard to get them to understand.

 

What a wonderful insight. I definitely think that may be in play here. I know I did it with my own family.

 

I was listening to an old podcast #1003 and Stef flipped the no obligation argument on its head making the point that expecting our parents to take an interest is futile because there is no relationship there. Whereas it's often there's no obligation from child to parent, it's the same in the other direction. I don't particularly like/love them, they are 'ok', not terrible by any stretch, but boring. I guess I was thinking that if I could get them interested it would turn into a great relationship, but perhaps the time is better spent finding people closer to the standard rather than trying to change my parents. I don't have the compulsion to 'educate' every random person in the street on logic / relationships / etc, I guess I shouldn't have it for my parents either. 

 

I don't know the context of the call, but I do think that parents owe their children something. There is only one thing that is owed to everyone in the world, and that is love from their parents. Through this expression of love, we are fed, clothed, nurtured, sheltered, educated, etc. If you are seeking a relationship with them, well, they do owe it to you. Whether they can provide it is a different question. Whether it will be of any comfort, solace, or use is another question, because they owed it to you when you were a child. You're an adult now, and the past is in the past. It is through their love of you that you would internalize this love for yourself.