aviet Posted August 8, 2016 Posted August 8, 2016 Recently I took the Myers Briggs personality test, as did two friends who are FDR listeners. We came out as INTJ and ENTJ, ESTP; and it appears that others here are are often categoriesd similarly.I browsed through a popular INTJ forum, thinking I would find it fascinating, but instead I found it so uninteresting that I could barely read a post. It seemed like it was awash with safe space babies cowering violently in the shadow of Donald Trump.Reading further it seems that the types of people MBTI analysts who are apparently more given to anarcho/libertarian ideas are also more prone to being Zeitgeisters, globalists and Marxists.This got me thinking - what sorts of things push people towards anarcho/libertarian leaning?I think a lot of it has to do with the information you do and don't receive.
Tyler H Posted August 8, 2016 Posted August 8, 2016 In my case I think it was a mix of intelligence and suffering under unjust authority for the majority of my childhood. 1
Kikker Posted August 8, 2016 Posted August 8, 2016 If you truly want to know you need to organize a poll. I got here through youtube and I'm a INTP. For anyone who wants to take a test too.
aviet Posted August 8, 2016 Author Posted August 8, 2016 If you truly want to know you need to organize a poll. I got here through youtube and I'm a INTP. For anyone who wants to take a test too. I don't have the choices for a poll, as I am not sure what they would be. When I was 19, I was interested in not paying taxes and with the meager $9,000 I had at the time, was looking for options to get out of the drag-net around the world. But I can't say where these sentiments originated from. At this time I had no exposure to anarcho/libertarian ideas to develop more coherent ideas on the nature of government and taxation. I didn't pick the notion of avoiding tax up, its something that is ingrained deep within me.
Will Torbald Posted August 8, 2016 Posted August 8, 2016 People have concerns, and they defer those concerns to whomever they think can address them well. Libertarians defer towards the free market, and anarchists defer all to it. Increase the faith and trust in a person towards negotiation solutions and you'll get libertarians.
Mister Mister Posted August 8, 2016 Posted August 8, 2016 That's a strange way to frame the question. This was actually the topic of the very first call-in show, and it's something libertarians have been wondering for a long time. Like many things, I assume it's a complex interaction of mostly genetics, some environment, and a little bit of choice. The genetics involves a combination of high IQ, and a tendency towards rebelliousness and non-conformity, willingness and even eagerness to challenge cultural assumptions. The environment has to do with how one was parented, positive or negative experiences with the State and with authority, as well as your exposure to these ideas. For many of us, as soon as we heard Ron Paul or Stef or someone else present a libertarian or anarchist perspective, we were immediately intrigued. And there is some amount of choice as well, which basically comes down to integrity and curiosity vs. conformity and social comfort.
Tyler H Posted August 8, 2016 Posted August 8, 2016 I don't have the choices for a poll, as I am not sure what they would be.If you edit your OP then there should be an option there. I put one in after the fact on the voting thread that way.
aviet Posted August 8, 2016 Author Posted August 8, 2016 That's a strange way to frame the question. This was actually the topic of the very first call-in show, and it's something libertarians have been wondering for a long time. Like many things, I assume it's a complex interaction of mostly genetics, some environment, and a little bit of choice. The genetics involves a combination of high IQ, and a tendency towards rebelliousness and non-conformity, willingness and even eagerness to challenge cultural assumptions. The environment has to do with how one was parented, positive or negative experiences with the State and with authority, as well as your exposure to these ideas. For many of us, as soon as we heard Ron Paul or Stef or someone else present a libertarian or anarchist perspective, we were immediately intrigued. And there is some amount of choice as well, which basically comes down to integrity and curiosity vs. conformity and social comfort. Non-conformity and challenging cultural assumption can also swing towards rabid communism and Zeitgeistism (Peter Joseph [Merola]). From looking at the INTJ forum, it appears apparant that they are more give to such things. The point on experiences with the state is a good point. That has been a factor for me and I've heard about a lot of those patriot-types who live in Almost Heaven who have had experiences with the IRS. There are some details here on Libertarians on 16 Personalities: https://www.16personalities.com/articles/the-us-political-personality-i-parties They say libertarians are considerably more given to being intuitive rather than observant (non-conformist) and twice as likely to think than feel. They also say libertarians are most likely to be analysts and explorers (probably entrepreneurs). They suggest that the analysts "lack of empathy" or emotional decision making, which obviously props up the welfare state. Conversely, green party supporters are close to three more times likely to be extroverts, four times more likely to be intuitive, about twice as likely to make emotional decisions and not surprisingly about twice as likely to be turbulent. The profile of green party supporters is somewhat non-conformist, but I think we should read into this the lack of green parties in political power. If people saw how much a disaster they would be, I think these people would change their mind. A lot of greens are also young people, who are being rebels without causes and suffering from low information. Obviously, there is quite a considerable shift towards fiscal conservatism and quality of life as people age and realise they don't live in a free-everything world. If you edit your OP then there should be an option there. I put one in after the fact on the voting thread that way. I meant that I would not know what options there would be for this poll.
Mister Mister Posted August 9, 2016 Posted August 9, 2016 Non-conformity and challenging cultural assumption can also swing towards rabid communism and Zeitgeistism (Peter Joseph [Merola]). From looking at the INTJ forum, it appears apparant that they are more give to such things. Yes, that sounds right to me. Is this your question, why do different people with similar personality types choose one non-conformist position rather than another? Especially assuming that libertarianism is a rational conclusion and those others aren't, what makes the difference? It's a good question anyways.
aviet Posted August 9, 2016 Author Posted August 9, 2016 Yes, that sounds right to me. Is this your question, why do different people with similar personality types choose one non-conformist position rather than another? Especially assuming that libertarianism is a rational conclusion and those others aren't, what makes the difference? It's a good question anyways. The specific question was: What life events, thought processes etc. go into creating an anarcho or libertarian? But what differentiates between say an anarcho-communist or anarcho-capitalist is interesting. From the above link it seems that being an emotional decision maker is a big factor behind Marxist, Zeitgiest and other totalitarian views; but that does not explain why so many INTJs appear to be safe-space babies, as they are meant to be logical. Having thought more about it, I think that experience in the market has a lot to do with it. I was never a Noam Chomsky or commie type, but when I was younger I had adopted some of their type of ideas without a real understanding or framework, i.e. the notion that someone who is financially successful has almost definitely done a lot of bad things. This is an extremely common belief I find among people with no/little stake in society. But it doesn't stop them turning round and saying things like 'As soon as I get some money I will buy a house and rent it out for an income stream.' Which is more the sort of comment of the crony system they express a hatred for rather than a free-market job and wealth creator of the like they think do not exist. These people don't know what they are talking about and have no experience. That added to their typically above average intelligence (graduates) gives these people notions that things must be rigged. If they weren't then "I would just have money flowing into my pockets because I am so smart". Karl Marx is a great example of this type of person who blames the market for his own failure. So things that go into creating an anarcho/libertarian: - bad experience with the state - positive experience in the free market - logical rather than emotional decision maker - more intuitive (looking at bigger picture, rather then immediate reality) Anything else? I tick all the above boxes. I think if anyone else does, there is a strong change they would be libertarian+ if exposed to such ideas. Returning to the subject of INTJs, by definition they are more logical and more intuitive. However, the general personality of the INTJ does not typically integrate well into society, socially or in the market. There is a lot of pressure on INTJs to conform, which they are essentially unable to do. This means that it will be difficult for INTJs to operate in the free market and due to their personality they are more prone to playing World of Warcraft for years in a basement. I'd imagine they fit quite well into the category of above intelligent underachievers and tend to be quite arrogant or sure of themselves at the same time. Thus, it could be easy for them to blame their failure on the market, which is driven by their near mirrors, ESTPs, or entrepreneurs. I know someone who is an ENTJ, so also given to non-conformism. A while back, when he was a dish-washer, having previously done nothing , been into tarot etc. I mentioned anarcho-capitalism to him. He said, "I don't like the sound of it, just because it has the word 'capitalism' in it". Although he was already transforming at this point, he still had the latent Chomsky-type ideas that many non-conformists pick up in their teens. Now he's set up a sole trader business, which has done quite well he has completely switched to anarcho/libertarian and there is no question its his market experience that has done it.
Kikker Posted August 10, 2016 Posted August 10, 2016 I don't have the choices for a poll, as I am not sure what they would be. When I was 19, I was interested in not paying taxes and with the meager $9,000 I had at the time, was looking for options to get out of the drag-net around the world. But I can't say where these sentiments originated from. At this time I had no exposure to anarcho/libertarian ideas to develop more coherent ideas on the nature of government and taxation. I didn't pick the notion of avoiding tax up, its something that is ingrained deep within me. I don't understand, you clearly have the personality test in mind when discussing why people are libertarians and you seem to put great emphasis on circumstance (information received/available). A poll with an open question is fine to formulate better questions in the future which I find a better alternative than a forum question in which people partly talk about themselves partly speculate on the rest and are most likely reluctant to share personal stories because it's a public forum everyone can read.
aviet Posted August 13, 2016 Author Posted August 13, 2016 I don't understand... A poll... When I started the thread I did not have anything in mind which I could use for a poll. I started the thread to get people's ideas on what life experiences, genetic factors, personality traits etc. people think could contribute to anarcho/libertarian leanings. So far there is: - bad experience with the state - positive experience in the free market - logical rather than emotional decision maker - more intuitive (looking at bigger picture, rather then immediate reality) I think if you answer yes to 3/4 of those you will have anarcho/libertarian leanings, or would do if you were exposed to such ideas and have the intellect to understand them.
theunbeholden Posted September 4, 2016 Posted September 4, 2016 I basically don't like abuses of power, integrity is highly valuable to me and anyone who pertains to be a public servant should be willing to put the average person and the rules above their own potential personal gain.
Siegfried von Walheim Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 Well, I came to economic Libertarianism when I realized Communism and Fascism either do not work or do the opposite of working in maintaining a nation-state. More precisely, when I started listening to Stefan Molyneux I shifted from Portuguese-style fascism to Chilean-style "National-Capitalism". I'm not a full An-Cap but I think I might make the last conversion if or when I find that true anarchy is capable of creating a White ethno-state capable of both defending itself against warmongers and maintaining cultural and ethnic homogeneity.
Tyler H Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 I'm not a full An-Cap but I think I might make the last conversion if or when I find that true anarchy is capable of creating a White ethno-state capable of both defending itself against warmongers and maintaining cultural and ethnic homogeneity. What do you mean by white ethno-state?
Siegfried von Walheim Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 What do you mean by white ethno-state? Essentially a country that is 100% White. I don't recall where I first learned of the term, but it is partly used to mean "of any European descent" as compared to "just Germans" or "just Britons" or "just Slavs", etc. As I do not particularly discriminate among White peoples' ability to live in one country as America had proven as an experiment that while it can take a few generations, pretty much any admixture of White can eventually amalgamate into one.
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