Kristoffer Trolle Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 I was always tought by the media that the balkan wars in the 90s was fought between the evil christians and the innocent muslims. Living in europe today and having had my experience with "the religion of peace" aka. islam, I find that narrative hard to believe. Does anybody have some alternative insight on these events? Thanks!
Cruiser Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 I was always tought by the media that the balkan wars in the 90s was fought between the evil christians and the innocent muslims. Living in europa today and having had my experience with "the religion of peace" aka. islam, I find that narrative hard to believe. Does anybody have some alternative insight on the event? Thanks! During the war, everybody was killing each other even Muslims among themselves (Fikret Abdic Muslim faction vs Sarajevo Muslim faction). Croats,Serbs, Muslims all did horrible atrocities to each other. That's why so many people wore convicted of war crimes on all sides. BTW, I'm from Croatia.
Etwa Posted August 29, 2016 Posted August 29, 2016 You are opening pandora's box my friend. I will edit and put sources tomorrow. - Yugoslavia was the most multicultural country in Europe. By far, it is even more diverse than some African countries. link - Yugoslavia is a federation of several states/republics (like USA or EU) and it is divided between Rich north (This lands were part of the German/Italian/Hungarian sphere since renaissance until 20th century) - Slovenia average IQ 98 - Croatia average IQ 98 - Vojvodina IQ unknown (Boy I wish to knew this one) Poor south (This lands were occupied by Islam from late middle ages to mid 19th century) - Bosnia IQ 83 - Serbia IQ 92 - Macedonia 90 - Monte negro 85 - Kosovo Unknown (Kosovo is 1/2 Serbian 1/2 Albanian in 1945) Albanian IQ 82. A thing has to be said about Yugoslav Socialism: After world war 2, half of Europe was liberated by British/American and the other half by The Soviet union. Yugoslavia was liberated by neither. The more Axis were loosing the war. The more local communist resistance was winning. Free areas in 1941, Free areas in 1943. By the end of the war this rugged "guerrilla" army had several divisions, armored units, air force, navy ... Yugoslavia had Liberated it's self. And thus it had leverage at negotiating table. All the countries liberated by red army fell under the Stalin boot. All but Yugoslavia. After the war Stalin orders Yugoslavia disband it's army and join communist Bulgaria. But Tito the commander of Yugoslav army refuses. As a result in 1948 Yugoslavia is thrown out of Comintern (Club of Communist countries) Today historians call this Tito-Stalin Split. link This was very tough time for people in Yugoslavia since there were American tanks on western border and Soviet tanks on eastern border and cold war has already started. Many though Stalin will invade and took over, but for reasons (Korean war???) he did not. So the path of Yugoslav Socialism was completely different than one of countries in Warsaw pact. Here is what Socialism looked in Yugoslavia: Following Tito-Stalin split, Yugoslav Socialist badly wanted to get back into communist club, so they started implementing Soviet style farming, which surprise surprise turns out a total disaster. But because they were not under soviet boot, Yugoslavia had a thing other communist countries did not had... economical reform. In 1950 reform was passed where people were allowed to own land. In 60's another reform allowed people to open private companies with up to 4 employees. People quickly figured it out that the wife can also open a company with 4 extra employees, and companies are totally not connected, hones one governor. Each decade had it's own spin. 60's are different than 70's ... but in general Yugoslav Socialism is more similar to European Socialist democracy than Authoritarian Communism on the other side of Iron Curtain. To sum it up Yugoslav socialism had - Free health care - Free education - retirement age started 45 for women 50 for men. - guaranteed government jobs - 30 days of paid vacation per yer - Open borders (People were allowed to leave the county without informing anyone about their intentions ...) - small private companies for those who like to work - Land ownership (Only 1 house allowed, you cant have 2 houses while other have 0) Basically Bernie Sanders dream. Yugoslavs thought of themselves as the most moral people on the earth. They were not savages as soviets in the east and they were not exploiting people as evil capitalist corporations in the west were. Who was financing this ? - Partly America and Soviet union. Yugoslavia played it's neutrality very well during cold war. They went to Soviets ... we will allow Americans to build a base, but if you give us money we might not, and soviets payed. Next year they went to Washington and said we will join Warsaw pact, but a few millions might convince us otherwise. After the fall of Berlin wall it was revealed that several US presidents were paying nice sums of money to Yugoslavia to stay neutral during Cold war. - Partly the system was supported with open borders ... lots of people left to work in west Germany and when they came back with lots of stuff and money that they pumped back into economy. - And the biggest part Politicians were borrowing money from future generations and inflation. And unlike the poor bastards on the other side of Iron curtain ... Yugoslav economy was greatly outperforming Other communist countries. The rich north was actually matching some of western world economies. So since they had much more productive life stock they were allowed to borrow even more money. So ... if Yugoslavia was so much better than other communist countries why did Yugoslavia end up in war ? And here comes Multiculturalism Following World War 2. Socialist have a tiny problem, all of Europe was destroyed by Nazis. Nazi = National Socialist. But somehow it was the word Nationalist that was the problem and not the socialist. So all form of Nationalism are banned in Yugoslavia. No one is allowed to put their group preference based on traditional historical ethical or religious groups. Instead the government starts a new government program called Yugoslavism. We are all Yugoslavs. Brotherhood and unity is the official slogan of the federation. Equality for all. To paint a better picture - Scandinavia is a land north of Germany with several small Scandinavian nations. - Yugoslavia is a land south of Germany with several small south Slavic nations. The word Jugoslavia -> (Jugo = South) + (Slavia = Slavic) ... South Slavic. They started to push new artificial entity Yugoslav. (the same way socialists in EU are pushing their new European entity being German or French is bad we are so pass that man.) Yugoslavism was a socialist government program of mixing people with different languages, religions, traditions into one big gunpowder multicultural pot of happy socialist lala land. Enter Islam. Since the government was giving free shit to people who could not afford one. And they even more stuff to people who have more children. Albanian Muslims start crossing the border and start breeding on government welfare. In 1945 when Socialism Yugoslavia has a small Albanian Muslim population mostly located in Kosovo region where Muslim present around Half of local population. Not only were they taking welfare and breeding faster than locals but they were also pushing out the Christians ... girls are getting raped, boys beaten and killed. And police did nothing since it didn't fit government agenda of Yugoslavism. Anyone questioning or speaking publicly is censored, because he is just racist nationalist. That causes Serbian flight from Kosovo. The place is exponentially becoming dangerous to raise children. The more Christians move away the more Muslims start moving in. In only 45 years Islam in Kosovo grew from 55% to 90% of population. Bonus Question : How many Years will it take for third biggest Swedish City of Malmo to Become majority Muslim ? (45% population foreign born or second generation- statistic taken prior to refugee influx) Prior to war. In 1980 Marshall Tito, commander of Yugoslav Army and forever president of Yugoslavia Finally dies. And leaves behind him a rotating (EU style) bureaucracy. Federation enters severe recession, in 1987 the inflation reaches 167% for that year alone unemployment is 25%. With every year since Marshals Tito death everyone is starting to understand the politicians are not longer able to kick the can down the road. 1989 Inflation reaches 1000% Bad economy leads to pointing fingers who's fault is it? Serbian Christians in Kosovo start disappearing -It was later revealed Muslims were kidnapping Christians killing them and selling them for body parts link. Government does nothing. Yugoslav wars started with Immigrants Albanians protesting for greater autonomy in Kosovo. The Christian Serbians completely pissed from decades of Lefties Lies of Equality started gathering in huge rallies all over Federation Demanding Government to give Arms to people to protect themselves. Enter Lefty Career Politician Slobodan Milosevic leader of socialist party of Serbia, who recognized that the wind has changed and to stay in power, He has to embraced full nationalism. He grabbed opportunity and for next few weeks TV is full of movies of Serbian Heroes stopping Islam, nationalistic songs and Horrific stories of Rapes and Murders in Kosovo. After 45 Years of Lefties suppressing Nationalism or any kind of rational honest conversation about racism Nationalism in Yugoslavia. The country exploded with Nationalism. Meanwhile the Slovenes and Croatians in the North are looking at drastically deteriorating conditions in Federations. Any kind of rational conversation is impossible. And then comes another lefty Joe Biden. Who publicly states on TV : Yugoslav Debts are unpayable and America will not extend any loans to Federal Government of Yugoslavia. But we will how ever finance all welfare and socialist programs of republic of Slovenia and Croatia, but only if they succeed from the Federation. And lo and behold. Shortly after Slovenia and Croatia declare independence. And Yugoslav Wars begin. There were 5 wars in total. 1st. - Slovenian War of Independence (Often called Ten-Day War) - Not even a real war. Lasts 10 days, 50-100 people die. (Kinda bad Friday in Chicago) Slovenia Was ethically united, majority of people were Slovenians. 2nd - Croatian War of Independence. Lasts 4 years and 7 months about 20k dead or missing Half a million displaced Why did it happen ? Republic of Croatia had substantial Serbian population. With all the suppressed Nationalism Caused by the lefties... Majority Serb Areas Wanted to succeed from Croatia and Join Serbia. This caused long and economically destroying war. After the war. Croatia needed 10 years just to get to the same level of GDP that it had prior to war. 3rd Bosnian War Lasts 3 years and 8 months 100k - 300k dead missing and wounded Yugoslav Socialist often brag Bosnia is an exemplary republic for it is the most culturally diverse. And the biggest massacre when Socialism ended. Yay Multiculturalism. This is when the first genocide happened in Europe after world war 2. MSM was full of stories how Serbians slaughtered 8000 people in Srebrenica. What MSM has not told you is that Srebrenica is a Muslim town in the middle of Serbian land. During the war, Muslims were raiding surrounding Serbian villages, Killing men rapping women. North south east and west of Srebrenica. At some point Serbs had enough and they said we can't fight a war if we have this ramping Muslims behind our lines and we don't have time figuring out who is causing problems and who does not. They Stormed The City and Killed all military age men and boys. What I would like ... is to have an honest investigation into How many Christians did the Muslims Killed around Srebrenica, before the Serbs took the town. 500 ? 1000? 2000? Questioning Srebrenica 4th Kosovo War. Lasts 1 year 20k dead or missing Around 1 million displaced. Serbs want to take their country back, they want to push Albanians to Albania. Serbians started ethnically cleaning the land. Nato starts bombing Serbia. You see. when Muslims were pushing Christians out and were ethically targeting them that was misunderstanding. But when Serbs did it, they were just nazis and had to be stopped. 5th - Insurgency in Macedonia Lasted 10 months 200 dead Albanian Muslims wanted to take parts of Macedonia and join it to Kosovo. In 2008 Bush the Stupid. Violated the international law and granted Kosovo independence. International Law are the rules that countries use to settle disputes. Prior to 2008 we had a law that states: if a lot of immigrants come to your country they plug into your welfare, multiply like rabbits and then declare their own country - that is illegal they can't do that. well thanks to bush the stupid that law no longer applies. Putin went berserk over this, with his poker face ofc. Just google Putin on Kosovo. This had direct consequences to today. War in Ukraine is exactly result of this and so was 2008 war in Georgia. Putin said ... if American will not play by the rules we will neither. The biggest losers will me small European Countries since we no longer live in a world with laws but rather in a world where strong countries do what they please.While main stream media reported Big Bad Putin acting out again to save his friend big bad Serbia. EU and USA now suffer from their own medicine. Bunch of Immigrants drying welfare and when it is all gone ... you think Hispanic will leave ? no they will succeed from the Union. The most brain twisting thing about Kosovo is ... in 60 Years Kosovo was ethically cleansed of Serbians Christians and Serbs are the one being prosecuted for crimes of genocide. Today Kosovo is 99% Muslim Albanians. And recently 1% of Serbs in the mountains near the Serbian border asked UN if they can Join Serbia? And UN said Serbians have to learn how to be tolerant and learn to live in multicultural Society, request DENIED. One more thing has to be added. the conflict in Kosovo was not between Albanians and Serbians it was between Christians and Muslims. Albania has 40% Christian Population. Kosovo is 99% Muslim. It was not Albanian Christians who made Immigrant invasion into Serbia. “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” ― Margaret Thatcher What Miss Thatcher forgot to tell you ... Socialism + Multiculturalism = Ethical Violence when the money runs out. I lived through all those wars. And looking to Socialist democracies in EU today ... it's one big deja vu. 4
Kristoffer Trolle Posted August 30, 2016 Author Posted August 30, 2016 Thanks Etwa, think you are pretty spot on
Troubador Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 Thank you for taking the time to post that. I found it helpful and interesting.
Kristoffer Trolle Posted August 30, 2016 Author Posted August 30, 2016 Just a side note: I think the tensions started even before the yugoslavia experiment: the Ottoman Empire was very cruel towards the none muslims in the balkan area, from 1500 all the way to ww1. There is even a mentioning of a genocide of the serbs just before ww1.
Etwa Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 Just a side note: I think the tensions started even before the yugoslavia experiment: the Ottoman Empire was very cruel towards the none muslims in the balkan area, from 1500 all the way to ww1. There is even a mentioning of a genocide of the serbs just before ww1. I only have numbers for Slovenia. Since October 1408 until 1593 the raids in Slovene lands by Ottomans are estimated to be around 200.000 captured into slavery. Total population of Slovenia at the time was 150k-200k ... in a period if 200 years the amount of slaves Muslim took was equivalent to the size of entire populations. Just for Slovenia alone, excluding the ones that they killed. Similar was for Hungary, Croatia and others in the Balkan. As far as for Christians within Ottoman empire ... Impalement was the most common punishment for rebellion or treason. It was even used for civil crimes. You take a long stick and you hammer it into someone's ass missing all the important body organs with stick coming out near the neck. If done properly the person will be alive for up to 6 days, slowly and painfully dying and being guarded, just in case anyone would think of easing his pain with quick death. Impaling in Ottoman Empire was ended in 20th Century. Or should I say it was put on a pause. ISIS already expressed interest to return back to this practice for U.S. led coalition pilots Here are just some minor revolts against ottomans 1594,1688-1691,1718-1739,1799 that all ended unsuccessfully with a Serbian on a Stick. 1
Ethereal Void Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 You are opening pandora's box my friend. I will edit and put sources tomorrow. - Yugoslavia was the most multicultural country in Europe. By far, it is even more diverse than some African countries. link - Yugoslavia is a federation of several states/republics (like USA or EU) and it is divided between Rich north (This lands were part of the German/Italian/Hungarian sphere since renaissance until 20th century) - Slovenia average IQ 98 - Croatia average IQ 98 - Vojvodina IQ unknown (Boy I wish to knew this one) Poor south (This lands were occupied by Islam from late middle ages to mid 19th century) - Bosnia IQ 83 - Serbia IQ 92 - Macedonia 90 - Monte negro 85 - Kosovo Unknown (Kosovo is 1/2 Serbian 1/2 Albanian in 1945) Albanian IQ 82. Your IQ figures are incorrect. Here's the correct numbers: https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country - Bosnia IQ = 90 - Serbia IQ = 89 - Macedonia IQ = 91 - Monte negro (doesn't say) - Albania IQ = 90 - Slovenia IQ = 96 - Croatia IQ = 90
Etwa Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 Your IQ figures are incorrect. Here's the correct numbers: https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country - Bosnia IQ = 90 - Serbia IQ = 89 - Macedonia IQ = 91 - Monte negro (doesn't say) - Albania IQ = 90 - Slovenia IQ = 96 - Croatia IQ = 90 My numbers were taken from Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen's work - Intelligence a Unifying construct for the Social Sciences. (Published in 2012) The site that you linked quotes as source the same authors with their books published in 2002 and 2006 ... I assume that authors updated their research, and the latest numbers are correct-er. 1
J-William Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 Thanks for the education etwa I heard a recent Tom Woods show on the subject, but they didn't get into quite the same detail. It's especially interesting how quickly Milosevic turned around decades of indoctrination with a few weeks of nationalist propaganda. I think if the left didn't have such complete control of the propaganda levers their power would wane so quickly and they know it. I wonder if there's any solution that doesn't involve lots of people dying. On the Muslim side you have Isis killing people and in Europe the slow bleed of rape murder and terrorism. On the Christian/European side you have media suppression that likely won't even end when there's fighting in the streets... If there was an honest discussion, you might see a solution that minimizes violence and loss of life. I don't see that happening, especially with the US acting as the enforcement wing of the media and suppressing nationalist interests of Europeans until the Muslim invasion is complete. The only end I see is many bloody and lengthy wars to retake European countries over the next 20 years. And all of these movements will be branded as Nazi and "literally Hitler"
HunyadiJanos Posted May 20, 2017 Posted May 20, 2017 On 2016. 08. 29. at 11:53 PM, Etwa said: - Vojvodina IQ unknown (Boy I wish to knew this one) Well, I was born in Vojvodina (the name Vojvodina exists since 1849 when Habsburgs wanted to buy Serbs to fight against Hungarians) we Hungarians call it Délvidék (ie Southland). Any exact number will be misleading considering the number of different nationalities there. I am Hungarian and I am a member of MENSA and most of my family members could be members as well. By the way I think history of Southland or better Kosovo could teach us many things. For example just check the demographic data of Kosovo for the last 70 yrs. I remember a joke when I was a child in 80's : Kosovo is the most modern part of Yugoslavia, every family has a DC10. On Serbian when You read DC10 means "has ten children". Cheap joke, high price in real life, 'cos it was true, that’s how shiptars (that’s how they call Albanians on the Balkans) outnumbered Serbs on Kosovo.
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