Who should I date?

[adamNJ]

I am torn between 2 bad choices:

 

Atheist = overwhelmingly leftist

Conservative = overwhelmingly religious

 

I am tempted to take the frogs advice and find a Christian woman, what do?

 

[thebeardslastcall]

You can't date a theory. If you want to weigh two options, you need two women.

[EclecticIdealist]

I would think it to be easier to find a somewhat left of center woman with an open mind easier to persuade to reason and more compatible for raising a non-religious family than attempting to deconvert a religious woman.

[thebeardslastcall]

But I digress. I'd tend to caution against based one's dating choices on ideological questions. You get a lot more useful information based on how people behave and interact with you. 

 

I'd agree here. People without honesty or self-awareness are incapable of accurately self-reporting their true morality with words directly. You have to judge their actions and ask them indirectly to see what the real foundations are for their beliefs. How someone got to where they are matters more than where they are, because this tells you far more about where they're going and willing to go and gives you a truer sense of their beliefs than whatever categorical or grouping label they stumbled into.

[deadflagblues]

In this case, it's probably best to judge on an individual basis and not let the tag of Christian or Atheist bother you enough. Regardless of who you date, you should be thoroughly evaluating this person's potential to be a life partner. It would not take you too long to see if a potential mate is good enough for you, so deciding to be wholly opposed to dating one of these groups would be both arbitrary and would sever a few good possible partners from your pool.

[adamNJ]

 How someone got to where they are matters more than where they are, because this tells you far more about where they're going and willing to go and gives you a truer sense of their beliefs than whatever categorical or grouping label they stumbled into.

 

If someone is a Christian they got to be one by either being born into the faith (most likely) or converting. Comparing that to an Atheist who comes from a nonreligious household or who deconverted (like me).  The Atheist seems more appealing than the Christian since we will have more in common.  A Christian who is consistent is also appealing.  An Atheist who is a leftist and a cafeteria Christian are both unappealing to me..

[thebeardslastcall]

If someone is a Christian they got to be one by either being born into the faith (most likely) or converting. Comparing that to an Atheist who comes from a nonreligious household or who deconverted (like me).  The Atheist seems more appealing than the Christian since we will have more in common.  A Christian who is consistent is also appealing.  An Atheist who is a leftist and a cafeteria Christian are both unappealing to me..

Than I think you get some of my point in that whether they're Christian or not isn't the relevant delineating factor in whether or not they will be an acceptable match or not.

[Pod]

Are we getting a trickling of anons lately or have I just not been around enough?  Anyway I think the focus should be to find a woman with a rational methodology for resolving disputes.  That's something that I would assume you won't learn on the first date, but about a month or so into it you should get an idea. 

 

How long have you been listening to the podcasts?  And have you been going chronologically or whichever one looks good?

[dsayers]

Isn't this a false dichotomy?

 

Oh and I agree with Pod that conflict resolution is key. Which by extension (or perhaps as the root) a common methodology for determining what is true.

[adamNJ]

Yesterday I messaged this girl who had the kind of qualities I am looking for, namely; not a liberal, traditional and family oriented type.  I messaged her and she got back to me almost immediately.  She appreciated my massege, however she told me she couldn't date me because I am an Atheist (it's listed in my profile).  Now I completely understand that a Baptist is not going to want to date an Atheist for religious reasons.  This left me feeling like I missed out on someone who I could have been compatible with and she missed out on someone who is virtuous.  I realize that most women of the type I am looking for are going to have a religious slant. So is religion a topic I should take out of my profile and save for after the 4th date or am I being a pussy?

[EclecticIdealist]

Yesterday I messaged this girl who had the kind of qualities I am looking for, namely; not a liberal, traditional and family oriented type.  I messaged her and she got back to me almost immediately.  She appreciated my massege, however she told me she couldn't date me because I am an Atheist (it's listed in my profile).  Now I completely understand that a Baptist is not going to want to date an Atheist for religious reasons.  This left me feeling like I missed out on someone who I could have been compatible with and she missed out on someone who is virtuous.  I realize that most women of the type I am looking for are going to have a religious slant. So is religion a topic I should take out of my profile and save for after the 4th date or am I being a pussy?

How important is religion to you? Would you be alright raising children to be Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, or some other form of Christianity, or perhaps Jewish? (I'm perhaps wrongly assuming you would not be interested in raising a family Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or some other non-Judeo-Christian religion)

[adamNJ]

How important is religion to you? Would you be alright raising children to be Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, or some other form of Christianity, or perhaps Jewish? (I'm perhaps wrongly assuming you would not be interested in raising a family Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or some other non-Judeo-Christian religion)

I get your point

[dsayers]

So is religion a topic I should take out of my profile and save for after the 4th date or am I being a pussy?

It's a difficult question. I was once a Christian, but not by choice. I personally do not have any problem having a discussion with somebody about religion, trying to figure out how/why they hold the conclusions that they do. It kind of ties in with my first post; If they're a rational thinker, then it wouldn't be very hard to help them over that hump. Or if they're not, it wouldn't take much to learn this about them.

 

I think the real complication comes in the form of if they ARE a rational thinker. Once they begin to reject religiosity, their entire world will change. They'll have to spend that much more internal resources on reconciling things they previously "knew" to reality. The relationships they had will all be challenged. Even the ones who don't find religiosity to be a requisite would view such a thing as a drastic life shift, possibly indicative of being brainwashed. Which you would get the credit for in the event that something goes "wrong." Say for example your theoretical partner accepts reason, her existing support network gets fickle on her, then she backslides for comforts sake. She'd think the worst of you.

 

I'm strong enough to handle all of that. Still, I don't know if I'd want to for myself. I've lived a life full of complications and do not wish to invite more. On the other hand, if you found the right one, such burdens would seem seem lighter than a feather. I wish you the best either way, brother.

[meetjoeblack]

I am trying to figure it out. I was white knight, socially conditioned, and heavily in my head. I took the red pil  and I have not looked back. I feel the pull of mgtow but, I still date and want to see more. I don't think it is a either or but, I think a lot of men are fucked. There are so few girls that are date material nevermind wifey. I hear the way women talk about men, of their kids, of their husband and boyfriends. It blows me away that someone married them and what for?

[inquirius]

At least in my experience as a man in his 20s, "dating" women is a truly ridiculous practice for which there's essentially no benefit, and that's assuming you never pay for her company or sex.  Stefan is adamant that, if you properly vet females (whatever that means), you'll eventually find one that's worth it, but that argument ignores the reality of modern dating.  Consider that nearly all females have instantaneous, exhaustive access to innumerable suitors, and would almost certainly prefer a man with absolutely no self-awareness because they themselves have no self-awareness.  Add in the fact that females grossly inflate their own SMV in perpetual hypergamy and the number of men willing to prostrate themselves to the pedestal of female orifices, and I can't escape the conclusion that those with higher self-awareness (and IQ, frankly) are far better off doing something else that yields a more tangible, reliable benefit.        

 

There are just so many things you could do to improve your body and your brain, or just entertain yourself, that a man who has even a mote of understanding about the current situation between the sexes can't rationally justify getting involved.  Ask yourself, how many times am I going to have the same inane conversations before I legitimately want to blow my brains out?  Before I went MGTOW, I could barely stand the rote of dating/hanging out with women even if it meant getting laid, but now that I'm fully inculcated in improving my brain and body, as well as doing whatever I want, my patience for shit tests and female nature in general is non-extant.  And that doesn't make me some great genius--it just makes me sane in comparison to most men.   

 

Finally, in response to that disturbing Pepe spawning yet more Pepes, the notion that you can "red pill" a woman shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the nature of the so-called red pill.  A woman loses power by being in a relationship with a red pill man, and you can't "red pill" her out of what she is designed to be sexually attracted to (wealth, status, height, etc).  The monkey-brain expansion pack is just that; an expansion pack.  The base game is running on software you aren't gonna change. 

[meetjoeblack]

At least in my experience as a man in his 20s, "dating" women is a truly ridiculous practice for which there's essentially no benefit, and that's assuming you never pay for her company or sex.  Stefan is adamant that, if you properly vet females (whatever that means), you'll eventually find one that's worth it, but that argument ignores the reality of modern dating.  Consider that nearly all females have instantaneous, exhaustive access to innumerable suitors, and would almost certainly prefer a man with absolutely no self-awareness because they themselves have no self-awareness.  Add in the fact that females grossly inflate their own SMV in perpetual hypergamy and the number of men willing to prostrate themselves to the pedestal of female orifices, and I can't escape the conclusion that those with higher self-awareness (and IQ, frankly) are far better off doing something else that yields a more tangible, reliable benefit.        

 

There are just so many things you could do to improve your body and your brain, or just entertain yourself, that a man who has even a mote of understanding about the current situation between the sexes can't rationally justify getting involved.  Ask yourself, how many times am I going to have the same inane conversations before I legitimately want to blow my brains out?  Before I went MGTOW, I could barely stand the rote of dating/hanging out with women even if it meant getting laid, but now that I'm fully inculcated in improving my brain and body, as well as doing whatever I want, my patience for shit tests and female nature in general is non-extant.  And that doesn't make me some great genius--it just makes me sane in comparison to most men.   

 

Finally, in response to that disturbing Pepe spawning yet more Pepes, the notion that you can "red pill" a woman shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the nature of the so-called red pill.  A woman loses power by being in a relationship with a red pill man, and you can't "red pill" her out of what she is designed to be sexually attracted to (wealth, status, height, etc).  The monkey-brain expansion pack is just that; an expansion pack.  The base game is running on software you aren't gonna change. 

 

Great post.

 

Contrary to the Molynoux PUA caller video, I have met a lot of women through cold approach pickup. I am ashamed to admit that but, what alternative is there? I tried the "just wait" approach and white knight. It got me nowhere fast or quickly into the friend zone. I have listened to every Molyneux video from Truth on Sex, Truth on single moms, anything from gene warfare, and relationships. It is not nearly as simple as Stefan is saying. I have approached hundreds of women. The experience has been god awful but, what alternative is there? What choice does a man have? Many profiles online read, "PROUD SINGLE MOM." Any man that vets women (again whatever that means; I can only presume 'screening???') would see this as a red flag. I do. The dating market is stacked in favor of women.

 

 

 

"As OK Cupid has demonstrated, women rate 80 percent of men below average."

http://drhelen.blogspot.no/2011/06/vox-at-alpha-game-dont-listen-to-female.html

 

So, contrary to how obsessed men are about women's looks and sex appeal, the article indicates that men rated women really good and women rated most men below average looking. This indicates female entitlement and with respect to sexual market value. So, if you look at bro science videos on sex appeal, the attractiveness usually aligns but with respect to online, women date up especially during SMV prime.

 

I think a woman open to evidence and reason can be red pilled. Then again, I have always known that I would connect with a very miniscule amount of women since my youth. Through pickup, I have seen this more and more. Approach lots of girls. Experience rejections, flakes, dates, more flakes, sex, hookup, flakes, and a consensus. There is very few people to commit exclusively to for the purpose of dating, Through these experiences, if a woman stops texting or is very short, one word answers, she is fucking someone else. When a woman starts up textings, any excuse for her distance will be matched with a lie; "I was busy." She may say work or any excuse. If you hangout and hookup, spend more time, it is a ex bf or a fling. Every time without fail. If a woman drunk dials, it is usually cause of being dumped. A woman drunk dialed me. Sure enough, it was revealed sooner or later, she was a in a bad place in her life. Thoughtful of her to try and web me into her mess.

 

Now, when I was a teen, I remember many girls I would have committed to who now come around. Many are heavier, have kids, some multiple with different men. Obviously, it is nothing I want to be part of. I have hooked up with girls from my past and it Is always a headache. I am talking approaching hundreds of girls. More dates. More hookups. Lots of rejections. Lots of flaking. Lots of problems. My eyes are open.

 

it is scary. I feel like MGTOW is calling me. I feel like I took the red pill and there is no going back. I am hopeful I could be steered in the right direction here. I am in no place or in a position to suggest the answer to the question of this thread. What I try to do is increase probability in my favor. If a woman is dedicated to self awareness and reason, I think this is a good start. I met an awesome woman. She had a very strong relationship with her mother and father. She was sheltered. The parents had been married for years. She was into exploring her consciousness. For any man seeking a LTR, I wish for you to all find someone like that.

 

Part of being dedicate to logic, reason, and evidence, being self aware, you sort of know too much like that story of the tree of knowledge. It is a double edge sword. Knowing female nature based upon life experience, I see reality as it is now how I want it to be. I think a woman could be religious or atheist, good or bad. I am not so sure marriage is the solution given the climate of the family court systems during fallout.

[ChrisN]

Use whatever you can to filter the masses. Could give dating sites like OKCupid a shot where you can profile your matches. You don't have all the time in the world so I would look for any red flags out of the gate and quickly move on to better prospects. One of steph's stories about how he met his wife was that when they sat down to meet that they were very straight to the point about what they wanted. What I take away from that is not to play games but be clear, polite, respectful, and analytical about the value of the person and how they play into your future life. Hope that helps a bit.

[meetjoeblack]

Use whatever you can to filter the masses. Could give dating sites like OKCupid a shot where you can profile your matches. You don't have all the time in the world so I would look for any red flags out of the gate and quickly move on to better prospects. One of steph's stories about how he met his wife was that when they sat down to meet that they were very straight to the point about what they wanted. What I take away from that is not to play games but be clear, polite, respectful, and analytical about the value of the person and how they play into your future life. Hope that helps a bit.

 

Thanks for the reminder. This is a good point in bold.

 

Keeping in mind, there was no tinder or pof with women getting infinite number of suitors, carousel riding during youth, and then, well baby rabies kicks off for settling down. It is very troublesome but, I usually looking to vet women in their early to mid twenties. You would be shocked at how reckless women are even during their late twenties. You would think it was a teenie bobber or cat in heat.

[Flip]

Haven't read every reply, so I'm not sure if the issue was resolved, but thought I'd add my two cents by saying that you shouldn't choose either if you see a high likelihood of future conflict around issues that are very important to you.

 

If you are younger than 30, you have plenty of time to play the field and find someone suitable for you -- but I think you should go on as many dates as you can. It's a numbers game. If you are 30-40, same deal, but step up the dating game even more and filter more (e.g. stricter dating app settings) because time is running out if you want to start a family. 

 

My girlfriend says you should read The Righteous Mind, which she says may help you better understand both gals. The author uses Moral Foundations Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory#The_six_foundations). 

 

 

[meetjoeblack]

Haven't read every reply, so I'm not sure if the issue was resolved, but thought I'd add my two cents by saying that you shouldn't choose either if you see a high likelihood of future conflict around issues that are very important to you.

 

If you are younger than 30, you have plenty of time to play the field and find someone suitable for you -- but I think you should go on as many dates as you can. It's a numbers game. If you are 30-40, same deal, but step up the dating game even more and filter more (e.g. stricter dating app settings) because time is running out if you want to start a family. 

 

My girlfriend says you should read The Righteous Mind, which she says may help you better understand both gals. The author uses Moral Foundations Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory#The_six_foundations). 

 

It is hard as hell. I am getting close to 30 in a few more years. It is scary. I thought I would be married. If I had, I would be cucked, cheated on, and dragged through divorce court or family court.

 

I feel like I have more time then women. Like, one girl I am friends with met her bf he is almost 40 and she is 28. They met online and both had crap relationships until they met. She works pretty hard and is self sufficient. not sure why she was single for so long to be honest.

 

Thanks for the book recommendation. I think it is a great read so thank her for me.

 

It is crazy. The rational male mind would think, if I approach a lot, I will meet 'the one' but, that is far from the case. I meet more R selected women. Lots of "proud single moms" bios online or in bars and clubs (shocker). Online, i went out with a girl, we hit it off but, everything seemed so closed off and hollow. In her bedroom, I found children's toys, and she couldn't lie anymore to me. Dishonesty is a deal breaker as is single moms.

 

Its hard man. I am happy you got a good one.

[Frosty]

I actually have this dilemma myself, I am an atheist agnostic. However a great many of the nu-atheists that came from the liberal/SJW movement are fairly leftwing people. Before I started to identify as MGTOW probably about >5 years ago, I would actively try and date and I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of dating someone with genuine religious beliefs, I didn't think i'd be able to respect that person, it'd be like dating someone who genuinely thinks Father Christmas is real.

 

Fast forward maybe 4 years and I'm a MGTOW and I tend to keep an eye on how the dating scene is evolving and changing, mostly with the intention to just verify my position is actually a rational one. But then I started to 180 my position on theists, mostly from FDR and learning that what you really need to look for more than anything else is virtues and values. So just out of intellectual curiosity I went back and changed my dating profile filters to allow religious women and the profiles are a lot better on average, purely from my anecdotal experience. I've started to see the benefits of traditional marriage, it's basically better in about every way we can reasonably measure which is why I feel like I've become more right wing. It's certainly an odd position because I am liberal about some things like gay marriage, and libertarian at core, but definitely do recognize that if you want to do the family unit thing, then there's already a good template for how to do it.

 

One of the biggest things I've been thinking about for maybe 2 years is how do we replace the values religion has instilled in people, because it's a fact, religion is going away, at least in the UK, at about 1% per year. Tracking the national census 2001 was 15% non religious, 2011 was 25% non religious. We want to do away with the irrational stuff that conflicts with science, reason and evidence. But ideally we need a replacement for the moral/values part. That's not to say that biblical morality is perfect, it's downright awful in places, but the basics seem to be there. That's something I'm coming to believe more strongly as I listen to lectures by a guy called Jordan B Peterson, check him out, interesting Dawinian take on religion. The point is we need rational and secular replacements for the masses, most people do not think deeply about this and so liberalism has become very much anything goes morally.

 

This whole "find a good woman" thing is so terribly naive in my opinion, sure we want to avoid the state machinery that sucks up fathers and husbands, drains them of all their money and assets, takes their kids away and spits them back out. Just find a good woman, yeah right. Just looking at the ratio of women to men with FDR shows you the maths wont ever work out for this strategy.

 

World is a mess and I default back to my position of MGTOW, stay away from this horrible horrible mess because it ain't worth traversing this particular minefield.

[meetjoeblack]

I actually have this dilemma myself, I am an atheist agnostic. However a great many of the nu-atheists that came from the liberal/SJW movement are fairly leftwing people. Before I started to identify as MGTOW probably about >5 years ago, I would actively try and date and I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of dating someone with genuine religious beliefs, I didn't think i'd be able to respect that person, it'd be like dating someone who genuinely thinks Father Christmas is real.

 

Fast forward maybe 4 years and I'm a MGTOW and I tend to keep an eye on how the dating scene is evolving and changing, mostly with the intention to just verify my position is actually a rational one. But then I started to 180 my position on theists, mostly from FDR and learning that what you really need to look for more than anything else is virtues and values. So just out of intellectual curiosity I went back and changed my dating profile filters to allow religious women and the profiles are a lot better on average, purely from my anecdotal experience. I've started to see the benefits of traditional marriage, it's basically better in about every way we can reasonably measure which is why I feel like I've become more right wing. It's certainly an odd position because I am liberal about some things like gay marriage, and libertarian at core, but definitely do recognize that if you want to do the family unit thing, then there's already a good template for how to do it.

 

One of the biggest things I've been thinking about for maybe 2 years is how do we replace the values religion has instilled in people, because it's a fact, religion is going away, at least in the UK, at about 1% per year. Tracking the national census 2001 was 15% non religious, 2011 was 25% non religious. We want to do away with the irrational stuff that conflicts with science, reason and evidence. But ideally we need a replacement for the moral/values part. That's not to say that biblical morality is perfect, it's downright awful in places, but the basics seem to be there. That's something I'm coming to believe more strongly as I listen to lectures by a guy called Jordan B Peterson, check him out, interesting Dawinian take on religion. The point is we need rational and secular replacements for the masses, most people do not think deeply about this and so liberalism has become very much anything goes morally.

 

This whole "find a good woman" thing is so terribly naive in my opinion, sure we want to avoid the state machinery that sucks up fathers and husbands, drains them of all their money and assets, takes their kids away and spits them back out. Just find a good woman, yeah right. Just looking at the ratio of women to men with FDR shows you the maths wont ever work out for this strategy.

 

World is a mess and I default back to my position of MGTOW, stay away from this horrible horrible mess because it ain't worth traversing this particular minefield.

 

Its pretty messy. I concur given my personal experience. The older I get, the more and more I relate to MGTOW although, I am refraining from listening to the content. I am cynical at points due to the reality and the perspective I have from life experience. If you sit back and wait, you observe an abundance of women riding the carousel. If you approach, you date more, you have more sex but, you are involved with a bunch of liberal women, women who are pro choice, swift to let you know about it and their feminist brain washing.

 

While I hear you saying that you self identify with being MGTOW, I still sense the desire for a regular life, a wife, a gf and maybe children. Maybe I am reaching. I get this sense by even your rational because I catch the same sort of thinking process in myself. I value family, order, roles, motherhood (not single moms), fatherhood, children, and qualities of riches. Certain riches you cannot buy. They come at to big a price like time.

 

I don't think guys truly understand the depth of the predicament with online dating and social media. There is a real issue with narcissism during sexual market value top form and entitlement. There are OKCUPID ratings whereby, women rate men below average contrary to the notion of female victimhood and how badly the patriarchy is to women. There is a level of delusion and there is no talking sense. Women can do no wrong in our society no matter how vile or evil the act is.

 

I have approached an outrageous number of women. It is not without a pattern, a perspective, a sequence of events, and aftermath. You see female nature not for how you wish it were but, how it is, plain and simple. You see that women are capable of being just as every bit evil if not worse then men. They then are swift to play victim and go full blown pity party whereby men will listen and bring out the violin. Never once do you hear what a good father and man is after a divorce. Its always pity party and how she is a victim.

 

It is 2017. If you still want to pursue, I think you should if this is truly what you want. Just screen and vet a good woman. You don't have to get married or settledown in the traditional sense.

[Caley McKibbin]

I'd point out that many allegedly Christian women live in contradiction to their supposed morality and are likely to be just as promiscuous and rebellious as any other woman, perhaps precisely because of their strict Christian upbringing. There is also a curiosly high propensity for men who claim to be conservative Christians to be revealed as being either highly promiscuous in secret or self-hating homosexuals. So I don't put much stock in the idea of conservatives being as wholesome as they project.

There was a woman that had made the first move on me that I decided I was not interested in because she had learning disabilities and was strongly Christian.  I took the opportunity to test her.  She wanted me to come to her house one day.  I was trying to appear cruel to see how much it would take to make her change her mind.  I told her that I would only use her as a piece of meat and otherwise ignore her.  She said she would settle for that.  I had my money against myself, to be honest.

[thecurrentyear]

There was a woman that had made the first move on me that I decided I was not interested in because she had learning disabilities and was strongly Christian.  I took the opportunity to test her.  She wanted me to come to her house one day.  I was trying to appear cruel to see how much it would take to make her change her mind.  I told her that I would only use her as a piece of meat and otherwise ignore her.  She said she would settle for that.  I had my money against myself, to be honest.

 

Wow, that is very sad. Good to have that data, I suppose.

[Flip]

I actually have this dilemma myself, I am an atheist agnostic. However a great many of the nu-atheists that came from the liberal/SJW movement are fairly leftwing people. Before I started to identify as MGTOW probably about >5 years ago, I would actively try and date and I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of dating someone with genuine religious beliefs, I didn't think i'd be able to respect that person, it'd be like dating someone who genuinely thinks Father Christmas is real.

 

Fast forward maybe 4 years and I'm a MGTOW and I tend to keep an eye on how the dating scene is evolving and changing, mostly with the intention to just verify my position is actually a rational one. But then I started to 180 my position on theists, mostly from FDR and learning that what you really need to look for more than anything else is virtues and values. So just out of intellectual curiosity I went back and changed my dating profile filters to allow religious women and the profiles are a lot better on average, purely from my anecdotal experience. I've started to see the benefits of traditional marriage, it's basically better in about every way we can reasonably measure which is why I feel like I've become more right wing. It's certainly an odd position because I am liberal about some things like gay marriage, and libertarian at core, but definitely do recognize that if you want to do the family unit thing, then there's already a good template for how to do it.

 

One of the biggest things I've been thinking about for maybe 2 years is how do we replace the values religion has instilled in people, because it's a fact, religion is going away, at least in the UK, at about 1% per year. Tracking the national census 2001 was 15% non religious, 2011 was 25% non religious. We want to do away with the irrational stuff that conflicts with science, reason and evidence. But ideally we need a replacement for the moral/values part. That's not to say that biblical morality is perfect, it's downright awful in places, but the basics seem to be there. That's something I'm coming to believe more strongly as I listen to lectures by a guy called Jordan B Peterson, check him out, interesting Dawinian take on religion. The point is we need rational and secular replacements for the masses, most people do not think deeply about this and so liberalism has become very much anything goes morally.

 

This whole "find a good woman" thing is so terribly naive in my opinion, sure we want to avoid the state machinery that sucks up fathers and husbands, drains them of all their money and assets, takes their kids away and spits them back out. Just find a good woman, yeah right. Just looking at the ratio of women to men with FDR shows you the maths wont ever work out for this strategy.

 

World is a mess and I default back to my position of MGTOW, stay away from this horrible horrible mess because it ain't worth traversing this particular minefield.

 

I sympathize strongly with this; dating can be very discouraging. I started dating way too late -- 30s -- and without high sexual market value. I've been with an atheist, fairly apolitical woman for almost a year and am considering settling down and having a kid, being a stay-at-home homeschooling father, since she makes enough (my liberal arts degree -- bad bad move, I regret it -- and work experience pulls in fairly little by comparison). if I was in my twenties or early thirties, I would be perhaps more picky, but I'm happy overall with her and can't afford to put off starting a family with my SMV as it stands. So moral of the story is don't waste time!

It is hard as hell. I am getting close to 30 in a few more years. It is scary. I thought I would be married. If I had, I would be cucked, cheated on, and dragged through divorce court or family court.

 

I feel like I have more time then women. Like, one girl I am friends with met her bf he is almost 40 and she is 28. They met online and both had crap relationships until they met. She works pretty hard and is self sufficient. not sure why she was single for so long to be honest.

 

Thanks for the book recommendation. I think it is a great read so thank her for me.

 

It is crazy. The rational male mind would think, if I approach a lot, I will meet 'the one' but, that is far from the case. I meet more R selected women. Lots of "proud single moms" bios online or in bars and clubs (shocker). Online, i went out with a girl, we hit it off but, everything seemed so closed off and hollow. In her bedroom, I found children's toys, and she couldn't lie anymore to me. Dishonesty is a deal breaker as is single moms.

 

Its hard man. I am happy you got a good one.

 

My pleasure, hope the book is helpful. I want to read it too. I think she's the one, but we're gonna attend therapy to make sure we're right for one another. We're both almost forty, so time is very short -- maybe even too late for a kid, in which case that will be a very difficult fork in the road. Ideally everyone should have the self knowledge and philosophical sophistication to pair up in their early or mid twenties, but alas. I'm looking forward to teaching my future child everything I wish I had learned sooner. Hope all is well with you

At least in my experience as a man in his 20s, "dating" women is a truly ridiculous practice for which there's essentially no benefit, and that's assuming you never pay for her company or sex.  Stefan is adamant that, if you properly vet females (whatever that means), you'll eventually find one that's worth it, but that argument ignores the reality of modern dating.  Consider that nearly all females have instantaneous, exhaustive access to innumerable suitors, and would almost certainly prefer a man with absolutely no self-awareness because they themselves have no self-awareness.  Add in the fact that females grossly inflate their own SMV in perpetual hypergamy and the number of men willing to prostrate themselves to the pedestal of female orifices, and I can't escape the conclusion that those with higher self-awareness (and IQ, frankly) are far better off doing something else that yields a more tangible, reliable benefit.        

 

There are just so many things you could do to improve your body and your brain, or just entertain yourself, that a man who has even a mote of understanding about the current situation between the sexes can't rationally justify getting involved.  Ask yourself, how many times am I going to have the same inane conversations before I legitimately want to blow my brains out?  Before I went MGTOW, I could barely stand the rote of dating/hanging out with women even if it meant getting laid, but now that I'm fully inculcated in improving my brain and body, as well as doing whatever I want, my patience for shit tests and female nature in general is non-extant.  And that doesn't make me some great genius--it just makes me sane in comparison to most men.   

 

Finally, in response to that disturbing Pepe spawning yet more Pepes, the notion that you can "red pill" a woman shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the nature of the so-called red pill.  A woman loses power by being in a relationship with a red pill man, and you can't "red pill" her out of what she is designed to be sexually attracted to (wealth, status, height, etc).  The monkey-brain expansion pack is just that; an expansion pack.  The base game is running on software you aren't gonna change. 

 

​Yeah it sucks out there. I think if my current relationship doesn't work out, I might seek ladies abroad rather than try to use my few virile years left to snag a worthy American gal.

[meetjoeblack]

My pleasure, hope the book is helpful. I want to read it too. I think she's the one, but we're gonna attend therapy to make sure we're right for one another. We're both almost forty, so time is very short -- maybe even too late for a kid, in which case that will be a very difficult fork in the road. Ideally everyone should have the self knowledge and philosophical sophistication to pair up in their early or mid twenties, but alas. I'm looking forward to teaching my future child everything I wish I had learned sooner. Hope all is well with you

 

​Yeah it sucks out there. I think if my current relationship doesn't work out, I might seek ladies abroad rather than try to use my few virile years left to snag a worthy American gal.

 

Thanks for putting me on it. I have read many of Stefan's works and it is well done. There was a point he made about if a woman did not introduce her bf or the man she is dating/seeing to her friends, it would suggest she is ashamed or that the guy is not good enough. I have made this mistake but in short, it has more to do with anxiety and i suppose, fear too. A woman acting up or getting crazy is a reflection on me so, I am rarely introducing them to family or friends. I also don't have a gf so, it is kind of pointless discussion.

 

Good luck man. I met a older woman recently. She mentioned traveling and seeing the world so, we got on pretty well but, I feel like she really messed up. In what was her prime years in fertility, she was likely riding the carousel, indoctrinated with feminism, educated but, not likely much with respect to self knowledge. She is not a bad person. She was a nice woman but the window for children has slammed shut or is pretty close to the danger zone like Kenny Loggins.

 

I feel like self awareness needs to kick back in. I met a woman who is young, in her SMV point, and she made the point that it has been tough before with a crummy bf. The hint hint is, she is single, available, and making it known. Then, she was closing up shop one day, and did not make much effort to make time. I started talking to her friend recently. Its weird. I was taught about monogamy, one girl, forever, the one, and happily ever after. As I got older, I realize, it is very foolish to put all eggs in one basket.