Is dragging your child away from a visit because it is time to go force?

[Donnadogsoth]

Wondering about how force is defined by the Peaceful Parent community.  Suppose you visit neighbours and when you get up to leave, you tell your child it is time to go, and he or she refuses.  No amount of persuasion will work.  At some point you must either leave the child there or physically force--what other word is there?--him or her to come with you.  Legit or illegit?

[dsayers]

Can't tell if you're trolling or what. Lots of weighted language here.

 

1) Defined by the peaceful parent community? It's pretty easy to identify that dragging somebody is using your body to deprive somebody else the use of their body.

 

2) "tell your child it is time to go" is inflicting a conclusion.

 

3) "No amount of persuasion will work" is begging the question.

 

Preparation is worth more than cure. The answer would be to not find yourself in that situation by negotiating before the visit. If the parent fails to do that, taking it out on the child in any form would be punishing them for the failing of the parent, which is very damaging.

[thebeardslastcall]

Yes, dragging is force. You sort of answered that yourself. I don't think that's really the question to ask. The question is how do you avoid these situations and I think I've heard Stefan say he talks with the child ahead of time and gets them to agree to a set amount of time to be at a place where they may like to stay longer, such that the child has agreed to leave after a certain amount of time. Then he also said he may give warnings ahead of time when the leaving time approached so the child would be prepared and ready to leave when the time arrived to avoid short notice issues, since the child won't be keeping track of time. Why is the child refusing to leave? I think this type of thing generally occurs when the parent hasn't built up any negotiation with their child and thus the child is rightly fighting for what they want since the parent is always forcing what they want. Basically by harshly refusing to leave the child is basically just mirroring the forceful attitude of the forceful parent who gets their way by dragging their kid around instead of talking and negotiating with them to get a balance of needs and desires.

[brucethecollie]

I agree with thebeardslastcall.  Now, when they are really young, sometimes you just have to pick them up and carry them but when they are at the age of reason it helps to negotiate and to also explain all the logical reasons why leaving at a certain time is necessary. Sometimes things get very challenging...I've had to carry my 7 year old before while calming him down. But 95% of the time there is some kind of compromise and negotiation that takes place--it gets easier with more and more practice for all of us.

[regevdl]

The key is prevention.  I mean if you were at a bar, enjoying yourself and the driver you came with out of no where demanded, 'it's time to go' and if you resisted or gave any protest like....just after i finish my drink...' they dragged you out....would that seem forceful to you?

 

Kids aren't intellectually developed as much as adults so you have to try as hard as possible to get inside their 'head' to see how they see the encounter.

 

Before I go anywhere with my kids I let them know, "hey...we will be here for about xhours/minutes but I will let you know when we are about to leave so you can finish up whatever you are doing before we go.'.  That's one proactive reminder I give them...before we leave the house.

 

We get to destination, before we exit the  car I remind them.  Remember, we spoke about earlier that we will be here for about x amount of time.  Let's enjoy ourselves and I will let you know when it's time to go with enough time to finish up whatever you are doing (game, etc)

 

We stay, visit, enjoy ourselves and about 15-20 minutes before I know we are about to leave I tell them.  Hey kids....We need to leave in about 10 minutes.  Can you start to finish up so we can get home on time to (bath, eat, homework, etc)?

 

I say 10 minutes knowing it may take them more like 15 or 20 in case there is any protest.

 

I check back in 5 and if they at least start finishing up, I leave them be.  If they act as if I never told them we need to begin to leave...then I stay and help them finish up whatever they are doing..in a positive and fun way.  

 

Typically this  prevents any problems 90% of the time.  But there are times when they just don't want to go.  I don't drag them out but if I have asked patiently 3 times with respectful amount of time between each request, I will ask to speak with them in private (away from audience) and tell them that we agreed about how much time we woudl be here and that I would let them know when it's time to leave and every time we discussed they never opposed or offered another solution which means we all agreed to the plan.  It's ok to change the plan but only if they come to discuss as we discussed before, not at the time the plan is being completed, that isn't fair or respectful.

 

etc.  I just have a diagloge with them making my case.

 

We are the adults and have more advanced cognitive tools to manage these situations.  I HATE it when parents need to leave by a certain time and only 5 minutes before they start ordering the kids around.  Kids...at certain ages have no concept of time and....lose track of time...so gentle reminders are helpful.  

 

Now, if they are really young...like 3 and under...they lack the cognitive ability for time management and future time management.  So in these cases, when it's about time to go....in the last 10 minutes I will spend one on one time with them with whatever they are doing.  Meaning, I will finish my 'visit' with the adults, go over to my child(ren) and finish out the visit with them in their activity.  Then they feel fulfilled that they got to play and get mommy time and I have more 'leverage' to simply request it's time to go.  it's time to go since we finished our game.... let's go home so we can (make lunch, continue playing with your toys, etc)...  If they still protest, you can reassure them you will visit again and set up a time with the hosts and be sure to keep it...do'nt break promises, especially in front of your kids.  

[Lotus Flowery]

If the house is on fire, then yes it's fine. Other than that...how would you like it?

[Donnadogsoth]

If the house is on fire, then yes it's fine. Other than that...how would you like it?

 

What if it's just time to go?  Time for bed, school the next day, whatever.  (To make it easier, suppose the people you're visiting don't want to have your child come live with them.)

[thebeardslastcall]

What if it's just time to go?  Time for bed, school the next day, whatever.  (To make it easier, suppose the people you're visiting don't want to have your child come live with them.)

Are you looking for a reason to abuse a child and call it justified? What are you doing?

[Donnadogsoth]

Are you looking for a reason to abuse a child and call it justified? What are you doing?

 

Do you like being surprised by impossible situations?  What was that I heard about "being prepared"?  Nothing like figuring out in advance what to do should a situation like this arise.  Never mind "a good parent would prevent this from happening," any parent, no matter how perfect, could find him or herself in such a bind.

[Drew.]

This situation is such a vacuum. Why does the child not want to leave?

[Donnadogsoth]

This situation is such a vacuum. Why does the child not want to leave?

 

No, you're trying to get out of the lifeboat dilemma by inventing convenient solutions.  That's not what I'm asking.  Please answer what I'm asking:  if the parents have decided it's time to go, and their child doesn't want to go, and there's no lodging him/her at the home of the family being visited, and there's no persuading the child, what do you do?

[Drew.]

I would ask the child why he/she doesn't want to leave.

 

I don't think that this situation would be a lifeboat dilemma.

[Donnadogsoth]

I would ask the child why he/she doesn't want to leave.

 

I don't think that this situation would be a lifeboat dilemma.

 

Your child refuses to tell you why he/she doesn't want to go.  What do you do?  There are no couches in the room suitable for paediatric psychoanalysis.

[Drew.]

Your child refuses to tell you why he/she doesn't want to go.  What do you do?  There are no couches in the room suitable for paediatric psychoanalysis.

 

Get glass of water

Use glass of water

Check inventory

Examine room

 

This child is acting on the premise that it is appropriate to do something just because he/she wants to do it because the other reason is not shared. To make it fair, it would be okay for me to do whatever I wanted as well. If this child/my child/the child I am looking after agree this is a fair rule, I am free to do anything I wish.

 

Also, the home doesn't belong to the child, and visiting the neighbors has an implicit time limit. After a certain point, this child would be trespassing. It would be entirely appropriate to use the smallest amount of force to gently correct the situation, much like how it would be appropriate to restrain a child who is striking others.

 

Add:

 

The use of force isn't wrong or immoral, it is the initiation of the use of force. Also, it is best to avoid it as much as possible with children as they are especially sensitive to it.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Also, the home doesn't belong to the child, and visiting the neighbors has an implicit time limit. After a certain point, this child would be trespassing. It would be entirely appropriate to use the smallest amount of force to gently correct the situation, much like how it would be appropriate to restrain a child who is striking others.

 

 

 

Even if some unwanted force is the only option, the child can't be morally responsible for trespassing. The moral responsibility falls on the parent. It is up to the parent not to have the child trespass. (for it to be trespassing, the family would have to demand the child leave. If I were having a child over, I would not want force to be used against him/her, and so I wouldn't consider it trespassing and would offer enough time for a peaceful resolution - I think most decent people would offer the same courtesy)

 

If they demand the child leave, using force to do this is one option, but it doesn't excuse the lack of preparation that can avoid the situation altogether. If force is being used on the child that would be appropriate for an adult in the same situation, then the child has been put in a situation that he/she cannot be expected to handle.

 

regevdl offers great ways she deals with it. If she can do it, so can anyone else. major props to her

[dsayers]

What if it's just time to go?

I have already refuted this assertion. Continuing as if it has not been challenged reveals that you are engaging in bias confirmation.

 

Do you like being surprised by impossible situations?

What adult is "surprised" by the fact that VISITING denotes an impending end?

 

Numerous people have explained to you the ways in which preparation is the answer, is key, and is something that anybody should be engaging in since every day is a series of problems that we choose to solve in order to move forward in our lives. Can you illustrate where/how this is a faulty premise? Because I've already covered the ways in which a parent failing their child is not a license to assault their child.

[neeeel]

Your child refuses to tell you why he/she doesn't want to go.  What do you do?  There are no couches in the room suitable for paediatric psychoanalysis.

 

You are constructing an unsolvable situation. Yes, everything that someone comes up with, you can counter with "well, he just doesnt want to do X" or "he refuses to do X", but its not realistic.

 

There are 2 possibilities in this scenario.

 

1) you have a good relationship with your child. They talk to you, they negotiate with you, and you with them, you treat them with respect, and so on. In this case, your scenario is extremely unlikely, and, if it did happen would be very worrying for the parent. Their child, who has rarely or never acted like this, suddenly becomes sullen , lifeless, unresponsive, acting out. I have no idea if, or how, this could happen, but if it did, it would be something as a parent I would do everything I could to find out what was happening, and why. You can keep responding "well, they just refuse to tell you", but that doesnt happen in the real world, unless they have had a stroke or something.

 

2) you have a bad relationship with your child. You override their wishes most or all of the time, you dont treat them with respect, they feel that they cant come to you with worries or stuff to talk about, your relationship is one of "do this! do that! stop that! dont do that!". In this case, its likely that they have behaved this way ( what we are talking about in your scenario, refusing to go, etc) before, and so you know before hand that it may happen. In which case, you just dont take them to your friends house. 

[Donnadogsoth]

Get glass of water

Use glass of water

Check inventory

Examine room

 

This child is acting on the premise that it is appropriate to do something just because he/she wants to do it because the other reason is not shared. To make it fair, it would be okay for me to do whatever I wanted as well. If this child/my child/the child I am looking after agree this is a fair rule, I am free to do anything I wish.

 

Also, the home doesn't belong to the child, and visiting the neighbors has an implicit time limit. After a certain point, this child would be trespassing. It would be entirely appropriate to use the smallest amount of force to gently correct the situation, much like how it would be appropriate to restrain a child who is striking others.

 

Add:

 

The use of force isn't wrong or immoral, it is the initiation of the use of force. Also, it is best to avoid it as much as possible with children as they are especially sensitive to it.

 

I see, trespassing as initiation of force, followed by forceful response (if no other choice).  But, as was mentioned, a child lacks moral responsibility so the parents are the ones responsible for the trespassing.  Not that the OP question was about "who's responsible" but there you have it.

[Drew.]

I view that children gain more and more moral responsibility as they grow older. It is not a binary switch that is flipped as soon as a child turns 18 (or whatever standard you would like to hold for adulthood) where they go from completely lacking responsibility to totally responsible. But, as children, despite how much responsibility can be applied to them, they still earn and deserve a lot of leeway and grace. So, even if a child acts immoral, the point is not to punish them, but to correct them, help them understand why what they did was wrong, and love them.

[Donnadogsoth]

I view that children gain more and more moral responsibility as they grow older. It is not a binary switch that is flipped as soon as a child turns 18 (or whatever standard you would like to hold for adulthood) where they go from completely lacking responsibility to totally responsible. But, as children, despite how much responsibility can be applied to them, they still earn and deserve a lot of leeway and grace. So, even if a child acts immoral, the point is not to punish them, but to correct them, help them understand why what they did was wrong, and love them.

 

Shouldn't that last sentence apply in significant measure to adults, too?  Very few adults are "stone cold" in their immorality.

[Drew.]

When I work with adults in therapy, that is how I treat them and what I try to help them instill in themselves.

 

When I interact with adults in my daily life, I will be compassionate and admire what is good in them, but I will not try to correct them as it is not my responsibility nor is would it necessarily be welcomed, as it would be unsolicited. I do not try to punish adults, though some people will only stop a bad action if the cost is too great for them, and I do act on that when necessary.

[Donnadogsoth]

You are constructing an unsolvable situation. Yes, everything that someone comes up with, you can counter with "well, he just doesnt want to do X" or "he refuses to do X", but its not realistic.

 

There are 2 possibilities in this scenario.

 

1) you have a good relationship with your child. They talk to you, they negotiate with you, and you with them, you treat them with respect, and so on. In this case, your scenario is extremely unlikely, and, if it did happen would be very worrying for the parent. Their child, who has rarely or never acted like this, suddenly becomes sullen , lifeless, unresponsive, acting out. I have no idea if, or how, this could happen, but if it did, it would be something as a parent I would do everything I could to find out what was happening, and why. You can keep responding "well, they just refuse to tell you", but that doesnt happen in the real world, unless they have had a stroke or something.

 

2) you have a bad relationship with your child. You override their wishes most or all of the time, you dont treat them with respect, they feel that they cant come to you with worries or stuff to talk about, your relationship is one of "do this! do that! stop that! dont do that!". In this case, its likely that they have behaved this way ( what we are talking about in your scenario, refusing to go, etc) before, and so you know before hand that it may happen. In which case, you just dont take them to your friends house. 

 

Or 3) you think you're doing everything right as a parent and may not be, and so may be blindsided by your child's behaviour.

 

Your points are good otherwise, but missing the point of the scenario.  You're trying to jerry-rig the scenario and that's missing the point.  Do you jerry-rig other moral dilemmas too?

 

The point is no matter how good a parent you are, children can be unpredictable and can spoil your plans for them, including the plan of leaving company when it is polite.

[st434u]

Wondering about how force is defined by the Peaceful Parent community.  Suppose you visit neighbours and when you get up to leave, you tell your child it is time to go, and he or she refuses.  No amount of persuasion will work.  At some point you must either leave the child there or physically force--what other word is there?--him or her to come with you.  Legit or illegit?

 

Well if you don't remove them by force then the neighbor will. So yes, it's legit. Kids don't have a right to stay in someone else's property against their wishes, just like adults don't have that right.

What if it's just time to go?  Time for bed, school the next day, whatever.

 

That's different. Bedtime is arbitrary. For you as a working adult it makes sense to maintain the same exact and strict bedtime every day, for a child who has no responsibilities it makes little sense.

 

And then schools are just State controlled brainwashing camps. You don't wanna be dragging your child kicking and screaming to a place where they clearly don't wanna be in, and where their minds and souls will be crushed for the benefit of the State.

[neeeel]

Or 3) you think you're doing everything right as a parent and may not be, and so may be blindsided by your child's behaviour.

 

 

 

ok, I guess its possible that this is the first time youve ever seen an inkling of this behaviour from your child. 

 

 

 

 

Your points are good otherwise, but missing the point of the scenario.  You're trying to jerry-rig the scenario and that's missing the point.  Do you jerry-rig other moral dilemmas too?

 

The point is no matter how good a parent you are, children can be unpredictable and can spoil your plans for them, including the plan of leaving company when it is polite.

 

 

What? Its you thats jerry rigging the scenario by just going "well, they refuse" to every response or answer that is given. 

 

the point of your scenario is that suddenly, for no reason, the child refuses every single approach, becomes withdrawn and unresponsive, acts like a sullen teenager, and that this is on going. No approach is considered or responded to by the child. This is very unlikely, in my opinion.

Lets say it does happen, and after hours of care, and chat, and warmth, and inquisitiveness, and love, your child is still standing in a corner not responding, or refusing to co-operate, the whole time they have just said "no" or said nothing. Then there is something deeply wrong with your child, or with your relationship with your child. In that scenario, yes, I probably would pick them up and take them to the car ( if they were small enough).

 

but these things generally dont come from nowhere. If you have treated your child with respect right from the start, negotiated with them, it will already be second nature to them, to come to a resolution that suits everyone. If they have negotiated and been respected right from the start, they dont suddenly, for no reason, start acting like their needs and wants dont get respected.

 

Its not about children being unpredictable. of course they are. Its about finding out why they are acting the way they are acting, what needs they are trying to fulfil, and helping them to fulfil those needs in a win-win way for everyone.

 

Your scenario is terrible because it assumes irrationality. It assumes that a child brought up in a loving home is suddenly going to start acting like one brought up in a horrible home, who regards their parents with dislike and suspicion. It assumes the child is acting on a whim that comes from no where, for no reason. Its not a real scenario in any way.

[Drew.]

ok, I guess its possible that this is the first time youve ever seen an inkling of this behaviour from your child. 

 

 

 

 

 

What? Its you thats jerry rigging the scenario by just going "well, they refuse" to every response or answer that is given. 

 

the point of your scenario is that suddenly, for no reason, the child refuses every single approach, becomes withdrawn and unresponsive, acts like a sullen teenager, and that this is on going. No approach is considered or responded to by the child. This is very unlikely, in my opinion.

Lets say it does happen, and after hours of care, and chat, and warmth, and inquisitiveness, and love, your child is still standing in a corner not responding, or refusing to co-operate, the whole time they have just said "no" or said nothing. Then there is something deeply wrong with your child, or with your relationship with your child. In that scenario, yes, I probably would pick them up and take them to the car ( if they were small enough).

 

but these things generally dont come from nowhere. If you have treated your child with respect right from the start, negotiated with them, it will already be second nature to them, to come to a resolution that suits everyone. If they have negotiated and been respected right from the start, they dont suddenly, for no reason, start acting like their needs and wants dont get respected.

 

Its not about children being unpredictable. of course they are. Its about finding out why they are acting the way they are acting, what needs they are trying to fulfil, and helping them to fulfil those needs in a win-win way for everyone.

 

Your scenario is terrible because it assumes irrationality. It assumes that a child brought up in a loving home is suddenly going to start acting like one brought up in a horrible home, who regards their parents with dislike and suspicion. It assumes the child is acting on a whim that comes from no where, for no reason. Its not a real scenario in any way.

 

I very much liked the arguments that you have posted in this thread, Neeeeeel. I do not think that there is anything that I disagree with, as it really is about applying the principles of peaceful parenting, which is a practice that legitimately has a wide range of acceptable behaviors, but a few musts for the parents.It very much seems like Donnadogsoth was trying to force a situation where people had to pick between two bad alternatives. I do not know why this was so fascinating or important for him to hold onto or explore. Honestly, I was a little tired of seeing this topic pop to the top of this section with new posts, and I knew that it wasn't an impossible situation due to the fact that it takes place in the home of another person.

 

I agree that this would only happen if there was legitimately no rapport or goodwill between the parent and child. I would imagine that a child doesn't want to return home either because he/she has fallen in love with someone at the neighbors (which is something that is lacking at home, and such a strong reaction would suggest that perhaps love itself is missing), or that he/she is afraid of the home, which suggests, once again, a lack of love. I like to think that with enough rapport, and adult could gain near immediate compliance with "trust me on this," as the parent will have earned it.

 

Children can be unpredictable at times, it's called spontaneity. But even there unpredictability is going to have limits. I myself can be pretty spontaneous at times. One thing that I will never do is go out in public naked and start robbing people. It would be highly unpredictable and something that is theoretically within my limits (maybe in the summer), but unless if I experience brain damage, then I have no interest or desire in doing it. The same thing with children. A little boy who has a favorite toy might start singing to it, but he's not going to break it, with intent, for no reason at all.

 

I think that this was a "gotcha!" scenario that he tried to devise. I do not know what Donnadogsoth's views on parenting are, but just the nature of the thread, that is how it rings to me.

[Donnadogsoth]

Neeeel, the scenario is like all morality scenarios:  it's designed to apply pressure to one's morality to see if it breaks.  The trolley scenario, the transplant surgeon scenario, the lifeboat scenario, etc., are all trying to break morality.  The point of such scenarios is to strengthen our own morality by exposing what principles we obey to show us better how to obey them.

 

The answer that Drew Davis gave, that the key thing to understand here is that the child is trespassing and thus subject to appropriate force needed to end the trespass, is what I was looking for.

 

Thanks for all your input.

[Lotus Flowery]

What if it's just time to go?  Time for bed, school the next day, whatever.  (To make it easier, suppose the people you're visiting don't want to have your child come live with them.)

I do get your point, and I am sorry if I came across as flippant. The reason I can say this with such boldness is because I was in your situation a few months ago, and I have worked very hard to put it right. Literally, the time and effort I have put into negotiating with my son has been obsessive, consisting of me putting it before everything - even if nothing got done for a few weeks. I have sat down with myself and wrote things down, really asking myself WHY my son reacts in certain ways and what I can do differently. It has involved experimentation, trial and error and a lot of mistakes.

 

Here is what I have learnt:

 

1) I connect with my son as soon as we wake up by playing and bonding. I have instilled this in myself by writing a morning routine which ensures I put bonding time before everything else. This for me was the only way I would have the self discipline to commit to it. When I am bonded with my son I am in the best position possible to be able to negotiate with him and for us to communicate effectively.

 

2) I discuss in detail multiple times a day, sometimes days in advance, what our plans are. If we are going to someone's house, I show him pictures of them, talk about their personality in a positive way, say how much I like them and I would be so happy if my son meets them. AND after we leave, we can do something you would like to do, what would that be? (Usually an edible treat is my son's answer).

 

3) I negotiate use of alarms. About an hour before leaving, I start mentioning leaving. Then about 20 minutes in I will say "OK I will set an alarm, then we will have to go" The alarm goes off. Usually he will come. If he doesn't, I say "OK, make me a deal". Usually he will say "One more alarm", I will say "OK, one more alarm" and we shake on it and say "deal". By then he is usually well prepared to leave. If I have promised him a treat, I can then remind him of this and that will seal the deal.

 

It is about micromanaging every little detail at first, then after a few weeks it comes more naturally, AND the whole process is a great way to build trust and communication. I haven't had to drag my son away from anything for a long time. On the rare occasion he adamantly refuses, I might bribe, try and strike a deal, tell him the consequences of not coming (we won't have time to play when we get home because it will be too late), and if this doesn't work I just end up going along with his wishes, but expressing that I wish he would come.

 

If it is absolutely necessary you leave (it is someone's house), and nothing else has worked, you could ask the person whose house it is to ask him to leave? Failing that, technically he is now trespassing and you have the right to remove him, stating that we have no right to be in a person's house if they are not giving us permission - but that would be the absolute extent of the force if it were me.

[Donnadogsoth]

I do get your point, and I am sorry if I came across as flippant. The reason I can say this with such boldness is because I was in your situation a few months ago, and I have worked very hard to put it right. Literally, the time and effort I have put into negotiating with my son has been obsessive, consisting of me putting it before everything - even if nothing got done for a few weeks. I have sat down with myself and wrote things down, really asking myself WHY my son reacts in certain ways and what I can do differently. It has involved experimentation, trial and error and a lot of mistakes.

 

Here is what I have learnt:

 

1) I connect with my son as soon as we wake up by playing and bonding. I have instilled this in myself by writing a morning routine which ensures I put bonding time before everything else. This for me was the only way I would have the self discipline to commit to it. When I am bonded with my son I am in the best position possible to be able to negotiate with him and for us to communicate effectively.

 

2) I discuss in detail multiple times a day, sometimes days in advance, what our plans are. If we are going to someone's house, I show him pictures of them, talk about their personality in a positive way, say how much I like them and I would be so happy if my son meets them. AND after we leave, we can do something you would like to do, what would that be? (Usually an edible treat is my son's answer).

 

3) I negotiate use of alarms. About an hour before leaving, I start mentioning leaving. Then about 20 minutes in I will say "OK I will set an alarm, then we will have to go" The alarm goes off. Usually he will come. If he doesn't, I say "OK, make me a deal". Usually he will say "One more alarm", I will say "OK, one more alarm" and we shake on it and say "deal". By then he is usually well prepared to leave. If I have promised him a treat, I can then remind him of this and that will seal the deal.

 

It is about micromanaging every little detail at first, then after a few weeks it comes more naturally, AND the whole process is a great way to build trust and communication. I haven't had to drag my son away from anything for a long time. On the rare occasion he adamantly refuses, I might bribe, try and strike a deal, tell him the consequences of not coming (we won't have time to play when we get home because it will be too late), and if this doesn't work I just end up going along with his wishes, but expressing that I wish he would come.

 

If it is absolutely necessary you leave (it is someone's house), and nothing else has worked, you could ask the person whose house it is to ask him to leave? Failing that, technically he is now trespassing and you have the right to remove him, stating that we have no right to be in a person's house if they are not giving us permission - but that would be the absolute extent of the force if it were me.

 

Oh, not flippant, but bordering on snark.  But that's fine.  I'm happy you see what I's getting at, and thank you for consciousness-raising the thread with your latest post.