Enlightenment period in Germany

[Hawkland]

I have heard Stefan several times stating that Germany did not go through an enlightenment age. Does anybody know what exactly he means by this? Because surely there were numerous enlightenment philosophers that came from Germany, and frankly I have not heard this statement anywhere else.

To the extent that it may be correct, I would find it very interesting to do a discussion on how that may have played a part in developing a German parenting tradition, which to this day is extremely different from parenting in, say, Scandinavia. While Scandinavian parenting today is probably the most peaceful in the world, German parents - even though I am not sure if they hit their children more - demand to be treated with a much higher degree of respect and deference. An example of this is how you shold never use the informal second person singular "du" to people who are older than you are, except your parents and grandparents, basically.

I have a German friend who told me his girlfriend's parents once invited him home for champagne to mark that after three years, he was now allowed to call them "du".

 

Even though this essentially is a cultural phenomenon and not a particularly moral issue, I still think it may be a symptom of certain aspects of ideological and/or philosophical history, which would be an interesting aspect to explore.

[RichardY]

I have heard Stefan several times stating that Germany did not go through an enlightenment age. Does anybody know what exactly he means by this? 

I think you mean Renaissance instead of the Enlightenment which was later. Perhaps Stefan was referring to "The Peasants War 1524-1525" in Germany in which a large majority of People (hundreds of thousands) wanting more freedom and the Abolition of Serfdom were easily slaughtered by an Aristocratic minority with a professional army.

 

To the extent that it may be correct, I would find it very interesting to do a discussion on how that may have played a part in developing a German parenting tradition, which to this day is extremely different from parenting in, say, Scandinavia. While Scandinavian parenting today is probably the most peaceful in the world, German parents - even though I am not sure if they hit their children more - demand to be treated with a much higher degree of respect and deference. An example of this is how you shold never use the informal second person singular "du" to people who are older than you are, except your parents and grandparents, basically.

Yeah I think there is still quite a Teutonic aspect of Germany that still persists to this day. Kind of makes me think of Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade where there's a scene about how they say goodbye in Germany and Austria. Japan pretty regimented(Hierarchical) as well, though I don't know from direct experience "Nail that sticks out gets hammered down" testing a sword by hacking off a peasants arm in some cases in the past etc.

[Etwa]

I see it like this:

 

Enlightenment = UK + commonwealth, France, US

They are Republics, parliamentary monarchy - Represented by Elected representatives

 

Enlightened absolutism = Germany, Russia, Austrian + all nations in this empires (Poles, Hungarians, Czech, Ukrainians ...)

This are Empires - Ruled by Emperor

 

Unlike Enlightenment, countries with absolutist enlightenment had economical freedom, but no political freedom. Like China today.

So in Absolutist world there is no discussion on how society should run, justice systems, markets ... Things are just ordered by Emperor. They get all the benefit of free market without changing social behavior ... they are stuck in middle ages in behavior.

 

I heard a story once I don't know if it is true but it can be just a food for thought.

 

In 18/19th Century Kingdom of Italy declares war on Austrian Empire. Both countries send their army, Italian army is 2x the size and has modern rifles that are loaded from the back, while Austrian army is small and is sill using old front loaded muskets.

However Austrians have one of the best generals of the time - Redetzky. He uses tactics and outmaneuvers Italians, defeats them and returns to Vienna as Victorious Hero. With all the glory and trump he goes to the Emperor and he says:

"This is the last battle I have won for you, I don't know much about politics, governance and economy, but I can tell you that Italians can feed more people and they are using French rifles vastly superior to ours. If something will not change I will lose the next war, we simply can not keep up. They must be doing something right. And if you don't change your bloodline will go extinct. 

Emperor thinks ... he does not want to give all the absolute power away ... even more give power to plebs how primitive, what are we stinky French republic. No that can't happen. But, but the French republic has become a real threat, in order to survive I will share some of my power (embracing free market), But I still want to be Emperor ... thus Absolute Enlightenment was born.

 

Economical Freedom without representation. 

This is also why some are afraid of China today ... like prewar Germany, Chinese government has all the toys(weapons) that free market produces, without a humanism. They can't have a discussion like we are having right now. Its a ORDER system. I say you do or else. And order systems are not really encouraging empathy.