aviet Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 From what I've experienced in life, for males it seems that the most important factor in attracting females (at least from a certain age bracket) is what is called game. This appears to be a projection of confidence in combination with reduced empathy for women. These two traits would appear to be affects of having a high social status and a bearer of above average resources. A man with high status and resources would be expected to be confident in himself and due to the reproductive options this gives him would allow him to show little empathy towards women. The display of game, of course, does not actually have to have any connection to having social status or even more so resources. As it currently is in The West, the detachment of young people from the necessity of resource gathering seems to have caused a situation where, particularly in the 18-30 age bracket, women are considerably unconcerned with a male's resources. If you don't have to worry about resources, you can have fun and go for the more exciting males who have game, but not necessarily any resources. This sort of leftist, unphilosophical behavior appears to come out when there is an abundance of resources. If people have a bit of leeway in the present, rather than building for even more and higher value in the future they will splurge in the now.A man's social status still seems to be important, but for different reasons that it has evolved to be important for. In past, resource-scarce times a man who may have been of economically low status, say a miner, may have been the village hero and thus he had a good support network within the community. But now, decoupled from having to worry so much about resources, a man's social status is nothing more than a trophy for his girl of the moment. It's exciting and intoxicating for her, but offers nothing of real substance.My question is - What do people think of game as a way of attracting females? To me it seems that it's the absolute worst thing a woman could fall for in choosing a man. At least if she chooses a man solely based on him being a ten, at least the genes are probably good. If she chooses a man solely because he has game and nothing else, all she has chosen is a mirage that probably shrouds recessive and manipulative drives. And from the male perspective, if you are using game to attract women I believe you are going to be attracting the lowest quality women who seek the most superficial and civilization destroying situations and traits.My second question is - What traits, particularly micro-traits that may be indicative of larger wholesome traits or could be used as the foundation thereof, do you think are good or bad to look for in a man or woman?
rosencrantz Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Learn from the best pick up coach, Trex. 4
Wuzzums Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 For women I would say an unwillingness to mix their private life with their professional life is a clear indication of quality. It's a pattern I've noticed in a lot of married/engaged women I've known. They are friendly, easy and pleasant to talk to but there's this feeling I get of being an outsider, you know. Kinda like you see two very old friends interacting and don't understand what on earth they're talking about. They share a certain bit of history together that makes their reactions difficult to comprehend, and they're not willing to share that "something" with just anyone. It's a mark of them valuing privacy, I think, and implicitly loyalty. Or maybe it's a sign of their ability to make deep connections with people. I've known people that just start spewing really personal info from the getgo to everyone they meet. You might make the mistake of thinking they're trying to form a connection with you in a very blunt manner but when you reciprocate with your own personal info they're equally as giving with it as they are with theirs. Don't get me wrong, it can be the most innocent type of personal information or the most damning, certain people have no filter with what they should or should not share with strangers. I don't think it's malice, I think they just don't understand there's a deeper connection you can form with a person other than knowing what bands they like or what movies they enjoy.
dsayers Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Game is bullshit. You know because they had to co-opt another word, with a vague definition to describe it. Game is shorthand, which means by definition it is imprecise. If different people have different ideas of what the word means, that's division when the topic is unity. My second question is - What traits, particularly micro-traits that may be indicative of larger wholesome traits or could be used as the foundation thereof, do you think are good or bad to look for in a man or woman? Humility and curiosity are paramount. These are the precursors of personal growth. Intelligence and empathy are indicators of the limits of personal growth. After that, it mostly comes down to how these traits are applied. How dedicated is the person to reciprocity? Which is the key to every interpersonal relationship. How dedicated are they to using their capabilities to help mankind? I say this because we are in pretty dire times in terms of worldwide acceptance of mutilating babies, assaulting children, State power, etc. For somebody capable to not try and make a difference--even only by way of speaking out against such things, not blessing toxic people with themselves, and raising children peacefully--would be a big turn off to me. After that, it's more about nuance. How do they communicate? Are they in touch with their feelings? Are they willing to share how they are feeling? Are they invested in how you are feeling? I must admit, I've been extremely spoiled in these areas, so the bar is pretty high for me.
David Ottinger Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Game is whatever you choose to make it, but it is simply a broad abstraction that pertains to your preparations towards projecting who you are as a man as well as your romantic interests. After that, it's left up to serendipity. Game doesn't end after you're in a relationship. For me, game is an on going commitment to making love fun and exciting. As far as traits go, these are the traits I look for: Integrity Affectionate Nurturing to family and friends Feminine Intellectual Health & Fitness Minded Down to Earth Financially responsible Unwavering loyalty Communicates honestly and openly Likes to dance Likes to go on walks Likes to stay home and cook Likes comedy Likes to travel Likes massages Blond or brunette Blue or green eyes Fair skinned Beautiful smile Curvy & Fit Does yoga Atheist or Christian Needless to say, she doesn't need to meet every single one of these, only the first 10.
Wuzzums Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Do you have an opinion on game? Game gets you laid not married. I think you covered this in the post. Game is whatever you choose to make it, but it is simply a broad abstraction that pertains to your preparations towards projecting who you are as a man as well as your romantic interests. After that, it's left up to serendipity. Game doesn't end after you're in a relationship. For me, game is an on going commitment to making love fun and exciting. As far as traits go, these are the traits I look for: Integrity Affectionate Nurturing to family and friends Feminine Intellectual Health & Fitness Minded Down to Earth Financially responsible Unwavering loyalty Communicates honestly and openly Likes to dance Likes to go on walks Likes to stay home and cook Likes comedy Likes to travel Likes massages Blond or brunette Blue or green eyes Fair skinned Beautiful smile Curvy & Fit Does yoga Atheist or Christian Needless to say, she doesn't need to meet every single one of these, only the first 10. 23? Don't you think you're way too specific?I I narrowed it down to just 3: 1) Intellectually stimulating 2) Loyal/commited 3) Makes my dick hard The rest will come through personal growth together I believe. If you want her to be fit just go to the gym together. If you like blondes and she's a brunette just get some hair dye. It's all manageable.
David Ottinger Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Game gets you laid not married. I think you covered this in the post. 23? Don't you think you're way too specific?I I narrowed it down to just 3: 1) Intellectually stimulating 2) Loyal/commited 3) Makes my dick hard The rest will come through personal growth together I believe. If you want her to be fit just go to the gym together. If you like blondes and she's a brunette just get some hair dye. It's all manageable. Nah, I know what I like, and I'm happy with it. And, it's good to know what I'm looking for. As I stated at the end: Only the first 10 are deal breakers. I don't want her to be health and fitness minded because of me. I want her to do it for herself. And, I find that sort of self-love attractive.
Matthew Ed Moran Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 Game is whatever you choose to make it, but it is simply a broad abstraction that pertains to your preparations towards projecting who you are as a man as well as your romantic interests. After that, it's left up to serendipity. Game doesn't end after you're in a relationship. For me, game is an on going commitment to making love fun and exciting. As far as traits go, these are the traits I look for: Integrity Affectionate Nurturing to family and friends Feminine Intellectual Health & Fitness Minded Down to Earth Financially responsible Unwavering loyalty Communicates honestly and openly Likes to dance Likes to go on walks Likes to stay home and cook Likes comedy Likes to travel Likes massages Blond or brunette Blue or green eyes Fair skinned Beautiful smile Curvy & Fit Does yoga Atheist or Christian Needless to say, she doesn't need to meet every single one of these, only the first 10. you didn't mention anything about children. seems kind of important. maybe you somehow overlooked
David Ottinger Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 you didn't mention anything about children. seems kind of important. maybe you somehow overlooked I assume women want children. Otherwise I find there is no point in developing a romantic relationship. Hence, no. 3 "Nurturing to family and friends." There is an implication of a motherly role there, otherwise I wouldn't care if she's capable of being nurturing. She certainly isn't needed to nurture me. I'm not looking for a woman to be my mother.
Troubador Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 I find this a fascinating topic with many interesting things going on under the surface. Although I'd like to echo what dsayers said, game and pua is bullshit. However there are some interesting areas that it springs up from. For a lot of men there is a lot of anxiety in approaching women and how to build initial rapport. So the idea there is some sort of magic bullet system that will help them over it is appealing. Although I am presenting myself as someone who knows something I am most certainly not an expert in all things women, but I was reasonably successful in building an intimite rapport with many women when I was younger. For me the keys were: - Confidence, whatever else went wrong with my upbringing I was fortunate enough to start off with a robust set of social skills and a certain level of self belief when it comes to social interaction. - Make and maintain a decent network of friends, both male and female. If you want to know what women are like, and what appeals to women go directly to the source and have some female friends you can ask. - Just be genuine and be yourself, but as part and parcel of that stand up for yourself and don't let anyone take you for a ride. - Language, learn to master it. Become adept at communicating your ideas in a wide range of contexts, learn wit and humour, but also learn when to be earnest and open. In that social network you built above practice how to hold everyone's attention with an anecdote, story or personal opinion. You'll note all of the above you'll learn through philosophy, all that is left is to attract and maintain people who share your values. Then romantic opportunities practically present themselves, but not in the sense you'll go out to the bar and come home with a different woman every night. The only way to win this 'game' if you even want to call it that is to simply not play it in the first place.
Matthew Ed Moran Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 Game is the result of women not finding men valuable primarily for their resources. Men who are looking to have no anxiety are looking for the wrong women. Women who are looking for men with no anxiety are not good women. Resources are primarily what a good woman is looking for. The type of man who can get resources is what women will be attracted to.A stay-home mother committed to raising children, who is in her fertile years, is what good men are primarily looking for. Women who want children and aren't looking for resources are dangerous. Either they don't want children with you, or they plan on getting the resources from the state. Men who aren't looking for mothers are going to get screwed in my opinion.
dsayers Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 Game is the result of women not finding men valuable primarily for their resources. Men who are looking to have no anxiety are looking for the wrong women. Women who are looking for men with no anxiety are not good women. Resources are primarily what a good woman is looking for. The type of man who can get resources is what women will be attracted to.A stay-home mother committed to raising children, who is in her fertile years, is what good men are primarily looking for. Women who want children and aren't looking for resources are dangerous. Either they don't want children with you, or they plan on getting the resources from the state. Men who aren't looking for mothers are going to get screwed in my opinion. Powerful post. I admire the confidence it exudes. I was hoping to have a side conversation based on a reaction I had to this. If everybody would prefer I start a separate topic, let me know... When I read "Women who are looking for men with no anxiety are not good women," I felt anxiety and was motivated to push back on what I viewed as anxiety being portrayed as a positive thing. Reason being that I'm subscribed to the narrative that anxiety is a bad thing. Meanwhile, I am aware of the ways in which people portray anger for example as a bad thing. I am passionate about push back on that narrative, pointing out how many emotions we experience that are labeled as unsavory are harmless in and of themselves. That it's how people choose to behave in response to those emotions that could potentially be destructive. I'm wondering if this applies to anxiety as well. Is it technically an emotion? Should it be viewed as a positive thing in that it provides for us motivation and/or opportunity for self-knowledge? I'm all but convinced, but wanted to get others' thoughts on the idea. Thanks for the inspiration.
Jot Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 Men who aren't looking for mothers are going to get screwed in my opinion. Why?
aviet Posted October 17, 2016 Author Posted October 17, 2016 The type of man who can get resources is what women will be attracted to. I've ran a few tests on the website POF.com. If that is anything to go by. And from that what was really working is: clean and very attractive; and fun, pleasure seeking profiles. Or at least that is what had the messages pouring in. Physical appearance was the most important and when combined with a fun, pleasure seeking profile, that is what gushed in the messages. I made a real profile for myself, though the photos could have been better. With a very FDR-esque profile it got about one message every other day. When I changed this to a fun, pleasure seeking profile that went up to about 6 messages a day. One of the pro-male model accounts with a fun profile got 14 messages on one day. Giving him an FDR-esque profile tanked that out. Then for not particularly attractive guys, you don't really get any messages, never mind what the profile said. Thus, I see physical attraction as the ice-breaker and fun/exciting as the relative deal-breaker. I didn't play much with occupation, but it didn't seem to make much difference. This was in the age bracket of about 27-30 in a town with about 50,000 people. Resources are probably an important factor with developing and more stable relationships, but it seems to me that game or confidence is a very important factor in opening the doorway. For me, I can attract women based on my appearance, but my colossal lack of game and status as an introvert personality outlier has made initiation very difficult. This also asks the question how should you communicate your resource-status? I am wary about doing this as I am worried about what women it may attract. Powerful post. I admire the confidence it exudes. I was hoping to have a side conversation based on a reaction I had to this. If everybody would prefer I start a separate topic, let me know... When I read "Women who are looking for men with no anxiety are not good women," I felt anxiety and was motivated to push back on what I viewed as anxiety being portrayed as a positive thing. Reason being that I'm subscribed to the narrative that anxiety is a bad thing. Meanwhile, I am aware of the ways in which people portray anger for example as a bad thing. I am passionate about push back on that narrative, pointing out how many emotions we experience that are labeled as unsavory are harmless in and of themselves. That it's how people choose to behave in response to those emotions that could potentially be destructive. I'm wondering if this applies to anxiety as well. Is it technically an emotion? Should it be viewed as a positive thing in that it provides for us motivation and/or opportunity for self-knowledge? I'm all but convinced, but wanted to get others' thoughts on the idea. Thanks for the inspiration. This statement also stood out for me. It's an interesting notion. As anxiety is something that is felt, it is an emotion, but one that is probably tied up with a lot more memory than other emotions. Off the top of my head I don't think anxiety is a good thing in most cases, except as a marker of needing to explore the origins of the anxiety. I think maybe it was not the best use of words and that maybe 'Women who are looking for men with no humility are not good women'. It's probably good in some cases though, like if you are being asked to commit a heinous act. Like anger is a healthy response to abuse, anxiety is probably useful in some way in certain cases.
Matthew Ed Moran Posted October 19, 2016 Posted October 19, 2016 Why? Admittedly that was not a very thorough opinion, but what I mean is that men who aren't looking for mothers are exposed to more risk in dating. I assume if you're not looking for a mother, then sexual attraction is the primary motivator. This will select for a type of woman that, in the current environment since the state is replacing the man and so many women are growing up without fathers, will tend not to respect men for the value they bring to relationships. There is also the risk of STDs, false rape accusations, and of course all the incentives awaiting women if they chose to divorce. If you're looking for a mother who finds a father necessary in her children's life, then you don't have a guarantee, but I think with enough focus you could get pretty close. It may be that the woman's relationship with her father or her desire to have a father around for her children is more important than someone looking to be a mother, per se. I've ran a few tests on the website POF.com. If that is anything to go by. And from that what was really working is: clean and very attractive; and fun, pleasure seeking profiles. Or at least that is what had the messages pouring in. Physical appearance was the most important and when combined with a fun, pleasure seeking profile, that is what gushed in the messages. I made a real profile for myself, though the photos could have been better. With a very FDR-esque profile it got about one message every other day. When I changed this to a fun, pleasure seeking profile that went up to about 6 messages a day. One of the pro-male model accounts with a fun profile got 14 messages on one day. Giving him an FDR-esque profile tanked that out. Then for not particularly attractive guys, you don't really get any messages, never mind what the profile said. Thus, I see physical attraction as the ice-breaker and fun/exciting as the relative deal-breaker. I didn't play much with occupation, but it didn't seem to make much difference. This was in the age bracket of about 27-30 in a town with about 50,000 people. Sorry, I was talking about good women. I get that in the current environment, many amoral women can prioritize looks or 'game,' but that is because of state subsidies. This also asks the question how should you communicate your resource-status? I am wary about doing this as I am worried about what women it may attract. That makes sense. If a woman is amoral, she will still be attracted to the resources, but she will look at them more like a pirate looks at loot. Off the top of my head I don't think anxiety is a good thing in most cases, except as a marker of needing to explore the origins of the anxiety. I think maybe it was not the best use of words and that maybe 'Women who are looking for men with no humility are not good women'. It's probably good in some cases though, like if you are being asked to commit a heinous act. Like anger is a healthy response to abuse, anxiety is probably useful in some way in certain cases. I'm not sure what purpose there would be to anxiety if it didn't convey information. Obviously it is not enjoyable, but that does not mean it is not valuable. I apologize for not explaining myself in more detail and also add the caveat that I'm not sure how much anxiety is healthy in any circumstance. However, what seems clear to me is that a woman who expects you not to have anxiety is doing so because she finds your anxiety troublesome. Anyone who finds your genuine emotional experience troublesome is trying to exploit you, or plans to. It may be the case that anxiety will be less around a good woman than a bad women, but when you're approaching a woman, you don't know if she is good beforehand. If you have anxiety approaching woman on a consistent basis, that may be something to explore, but I don't see it as a bad thing, per se. It may be a valuable thing that can test the willingness of a woman to have empathy. Lastly, about game: If you are anticipating a conversation before it begins by planning an approach to get a particular type of response, then in my completely amateur opinion you are already dissociating and making yourself vulnerable by not listening to what she says in the first place. There are genuine ways to express humor, curiosity, excitement; none of which can be planned beforehand and be genuine at the same time (at least not with any ability to discern the two). As soon as you plan your encounters, the most essential information - how you feel in the first moments you speak to someone - will be completely meaningless. In my completely amateur opinion, becoming good at being very attentive in the first moments of conversation can be what illuminates a good woman from many average women.
Frosty Posted November 14, 2016 Posted November 14, 2016 I think it's worth understanding that many of these things are hardwired biological responses, they're not reasoned. And you have to be careful about the cause and effect, not getting these 2 things flipped. During humans early development, men capable of providing and protecting gave the genes of women a survival advantage. The men that acquired these resources displayed outward indicators of their success, which is generally more confidence and more alpha traits of dominance and many cases charity, which in the case of charity to beta males created social hierarchy. The women who evolved a strategy of being attracted to alpha male traits were more likely to sexually interact with the alpha and thus more likely to pass on those qualities in their genes. Game is just a modern day attempt to recreate those qualities. One of your points correctly shows that women aren't always interested in a mans resources, especially if she has a lot herself, but remember the attraction is not to resources but to what indicate the resources, which is the confidence and the alpha male traits. And because that biology evolved over a long period of time, it's not going away any time soon, and PUA make use of that fact to get laid. Game isn't used to pick partners for long term relationships, a large number of the people using it are simply interested in getting laid and are logically picking the shortest line between 2 points. The more tricky thing about relationships where this becomes a grey area for me is that I believe virtue is a better reason to pick a partner than for just biological attraction, but does the existence of game directly conflict with virtue? I'm not so sure. What I believe for sure is that it's not a direct replacement, that you need to display virtue to attract other virtuous people, but I suspect that certain elements of game can be used in addition to that to increase your chances. Intelligence certainly isn't a moral virtue, and so while an intelligent female might understand when they're being gamed and reject the man, what you might lose in virtuous intelligent women you might be able to gain in virtuous attractive women, and that seems like a reasonable trade off for many men. Some elements of game may be considered fraud in the context of negotiating a relationship though and so plausibly a violation of the NAP. Outside of that I see it as relatively harmless, a kind of "male makeup", women boost their attractiveness to men with makeup. Intelligent men know why this works and may reject women who use it a lot, but what women lose in intelligent men they gain in having greater pick of attractive men, or men with other qualities they prefer.
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