The Arrogance of the Anti-Empirical Libertarian

[apples and grapes]

Anarchists don't vote. Also, I'm not at all interested in WHY somebody would try to pretend to own me. I stopped here because I've already invested too much time in company that isn't listening.

I find it odd that you think people want to own you, but I agree you aren't interested because if you did take the time you might *gasp* find that people actually don't know who you are and aren't interested in owning you.

 

If you can't even get past one paragraph then why even respond to me? Go to /pol/ if you wanna shitpost m8

[dsayers]

I find it odd that you think people want to own you, but I agree you aren't interested because if you did take the time you might *gasp* find that people actually don't know who you are and aren't interested in owning you.

Voting is pretending to be able to transfer ownership of me. The passive-aggressiveness in your post should be aimed at those who wish to enslave you, not the ones trying to put an end to it all by telling the truth.

[Donnadogsoth]

 

Where coercion is present, choice is not. When somebody is given a credible threat of violence, the ways in which they're not living their values doesn't mean they don't hold those values. We're talking about the VOLUNTARY action of voting and you know it. This is just very base line sophistry, that YOU have seen ME debunk a dozen times that you throw out to give yourself reason to reject the truth.

 

Suppose you have ESP and can see that the voting tallies for the two candidates are exactly equal.  Remember, the first will steal everything you own and the second will steal 20% less money from you than the outgoing government did.  One vote will elect the second, and say by a quirk of the voting system a tie means the former will win.  You're the last voter.  Your vote decides it.  Do you vote for the second and save your property, or do you abstain from voting because your are such a righteous fellow and hand your home, your car, your bank account, and your clothes and other possessions to the incumbent victor?

 

What do you think Stefan would do?  WWSD?

[A4E]

Hostilities towards Dsayers are unproductive. People who are reading this thread will not get a good taste in their mouth of freedom oriented people if they see them intimidating, misrepresenting, grasping for straws, and now accusing him of spamming.

 

Maybe show some respect for difference of opinion? I am as pro Trump as anyone, but this punching ball exercise is not going anywhere, and the energy can be put to better use than us turning against each other.

 

I liked the thread premise to start with, but now it just stinks of intimidation and mob tactic.

 

Writing "Trump is an excellent boss" on a piece of paper and putting it up in your local store would be far more effective and better use of time I'd think.

[dsayers]

Suppose you have ESP and can see that the voting tallies for the two candidates are exactly equal.  Remember, the first will steal everything you own and the second will steal 20% less money from you than the outgoing government did.  One vote will elect the second, and say by a quirk of the voting system a tie means the former will win.  You're the last voter.  Your vote decides it.  Do you vote for the second and save your property, or do you abstain from voting because your are such a righteous fellow and hand your home, your car, your bank account, and your clothes and other possessions to the incumbent victor?

 

What do you think Stefan would do?  WWSD?

Fearmongering. You don't own me and I know better than to pretend I own you. ADDRESS THIS! All you're doing is redressing the trolley issue. I did not create the situation. I am not responsible for it. I'm not so naive as to think that engaging in a magic ritual that is predicated on pretending to own you will change a damn thing. Convincing people that they are free and here is one way to live as such is making a difference.

 

Maybe show some respect for difference of opinion? I am as pro Trump as anyone, but this punching ball exercise is not going anywhere, and the energy can be put to better use than us turning against each other.

I appreciate the perspective. However, this is the entire point of bread and circus: To divide people horizontally to stop them from dividing vertically. Stef has pointed out that the effects of the State are in the "slave on slave violence." I've been asked what my theory is as to why have voting at all if it doesn't matter; This is precisely it. It gives the illusion of choice and gives people who would otherwise be free and principled another way to faction off and render ourselves impotent against millenia of human subjugation. The people who would otherwise know better are back to co-operating with their enslavement and begging their masters to save them. It's one of the most tragic things I've beheld, and I have known loss and suffering to extreme degrees

[Donnadogsoth]

Fearmongering. You don't own me and I know better than to pretend I own you. ADDRESS THIS! All you're doing is redressing the trolley issue. I did not create the situation. I am not responsible for it. I'm not so naive as to think that engaging in a magic ritual that is predicated on pretending to own you will change a damn thing. Convincing people that they are free and here is one way to live as such is making a difference.

 

I believe you.  You'd really rather see the country burn for the sake of your foolish pride in upholding your false principle of self-ownership, than vote to ameliorate the harm that the corrupt establishment is wreaking on you and those you love, and those you don't love, too, by taking this once-in-a-lifetime chance to stick an anti-establishment renegade in the White House.  You'd really like Glass-Steagall to never be reinstated, you'd really love more toxic free trade deals, and you're just messing yourself thinking about all those immigrants both legal and illegal that are going to be flooding the country.  And, if Trump loses, take additional comfort in the spike in white male suicides aged 40-60--hey, they're all committing the ultimate act of self-will!  Hoo-ray for self-ownership!  Hoo-ray for principles!

[dsayers]

You'd really rather see the country burn

Assertion, appeal to emotion, strawman, appeal to emotion, and false premise. It's the people that wish to enslave a nation that wish for it to burn. Not that there is such a thing.

 

If the best you can do is tease me for accepting reality, I can live with that.

[apples and grapes]

Voting is pretending to be able to transfer ownership of me. The passive-aggressiveness in your post should be aimed at those who wish to enslave you, not the ones trying to put an end to it all by telling the truth.

In your initial response to me you said you aren't interested in why someone would vote, but at the same time you repeatedly say the reason why someone votes is because they want to own you or transfer ownership etc. Which one is it? Are you just certain of the reason behind someone voting to such a degree that you don't even think it worth while considering different perspectives? That's not me asking a stupid rhetoric question as some piece of sophistry (like when you question welfare and someone says "do you want people to die in the streets?"), I really want to know

 

And calling something "passive-aggressive" isn't an arguement. Besides calling you out for posting something which added no value to a thread, shitposting, seems more assertive then passive-aggressive to me.

 

So what do we do instead? Especially if Hillary gets in, what do we do to end the enslavement? 

 

 

Hostilities towards Dsayers are unproductive. People who are reading this thread will not get a good taste in their mouth of freedom oriented people if they see them intimidating, misrepresenting, grasping for straws, and now accusing him of spamming.

 

To be fair, I put some effort to my first post and hoped for constructive criticism. And Dsayer read less then a paragraph before telling me I was wrong and something to do with already having spent too much time with company that doesn't listen (the irony of complaining about people not listening to him, while not listening to more then 1/6 of my post isn't lost on me). 

 

I don't know about others in the thread, but I have neither intimidated, misrepresented, nor have a grasped for straws. I accused him of spamming because what he posted was spam. And for anyone who gets a bad taste from reading someone call someone else out for a shtipost, there's probably at least one other who appreciates it. =)

 

 

Maybe show some respect for difference of opinion? 

Again can't speak for other peeps, but I think at least in my case this is better directed at Dsayer since he didn't even bother reading past one paragraph of mine because ordaining I was wrong. =/

[A4E]

Donnadogsoth. You are quite viciously misrepresenting him.

[Gavitor]

I believe you.  You'd really rather see the country burn for the sake of your foolish pride in upholding your false principle of self-ownership, than vote to ameliorate the harm that the corrupt establishment is wreaking on you and those you love, and those you don't love, too, by taking this once-in-a-lifetime chance to stick an anti-establishment renegade in the White House.  You'd really like Glass-Steagall to never be reinstated, you'd really love more toxic free trade deals, and you're just messing yourself thinking about all those immigrants both legal and illegal that are going to be flooding the country.  And, if Trump loses, take additional comfort in the spike in white male suicides aged 40-60--hey, they're all committing the ultimate act of self-will!  Hoo-ray for self-ownership!  Hoo-ray for principles!

 

While I have my disagreements with dsayers I seriously doubt he supports any of that. Also I'm pretty sure most of us regardless of whether voting or not don't support the creation of more laws...

 

More laws will not solve our problems and voting for trump is still taking a big chance. Some want to take that chance and others don't.

 

I agree with A4E we could be doing better things with our time then fighting one another when in the end we all want the same thing, a free world.

 

Dsayers is correct when he points out that voting is there to divide us. Especially when there is evidence that the #1 prejudice people have is political prejudice. (IE people don't care about the person or the policy they only care about the stupid D or R)

 

However I have to point out that when it comes to slave on slave its not about voting, the problem is that the majority of slaves believe they need a master and will actively protect their masters. This applies in areas where there is no voting either. Also with the fact that most people will not be swayed by reason and evidence and in fact will double down on whatever it is they believe when receiving reason and evidence then how do we go about dealing with that?

 

If the majority of people in the world care nothing for reason and evidence let alone principles how then does speaking truth change that when telling the average person the truth has the opposite affect and only strengthens their false belief?

[Donnadogsoth]

...You'd really rather see the country burn for the sake of your foolish pride in upholding your false principle of self-ownership...

 

Donnadogsoth. You are quite viciously misrepresenting 

 

I believe my second sentence (fragment), quoted above, is the absolute truth about dsayers, on this matter.  And the rest isn't all that far off if hyperbolic for satirical effect.  As was put elsewhere, the house is on fire, but let's stay in the parlour congratulating ourselves on how we are more principled than fire is.

[Donnadogsoth]

However I have to point out that when it comes to slave on slave its not about voting, the problem is that the majority of slaves believe they need a master and will actively protect their masters. This applies in areas where there is no voting either. Also with the fact that most people will not be swayed by reason and evidence and in fact will double down on whatever it is they believe when receiving reason and evidence then how do we go about dealing with that?

 

If the majority of people in the world care nothing for reason and evidence let alone principles how then does speaking truth change that when telling the average person the truth has the opposite affect and only strengthens their false belief?

 

The asylum's patient body can only be cured through careful, generational applications of higher culture, administered by the cultural vanguard that is also attempting to take control of the asylum proper politically.  This vanguard stands for the republican (small-r) model of human relations, as opposed to the oligarchical.  This means politicking within the system as it stands, while developing an understanding of higher culture, specifically principled culture, in order to become better doctors.

[A4E]

I believe my second sentence (fragment), quoted above, is the absolute truth about dsayers, on this matter.  And the rest isn't all that far off if hyperbolic for satirical effect.  As was put elsewhere, the house is on fire, but let's stay in the parlour congratulating ourselves on how we are more principled than fire is.

The minimized version of debunking your claim on the whole, including that Trump is going to help put out the fire, is that you do not know the future.

[Donnadogsoth]

The minimized version of debunking your claim on the whole, including that Trump is going to help put out the fire, is that you do not know the future.

 

Should the farmer who doesn't know Sol will rise tomorrow still plant his crops?

[A4E]

Should the farmer who doesn't know Sol will rise tomorrow still plant his crops?

You'd really rather see the country burn for the sake of your foolish pride in upholding your statement in this thread. You could really do some things for Trump right now that will be much more effective than trying to change Dsayers mind, so why do you want to see USA in flames?

 

and

 

You'd really rather see the country burn for the sake of your relentless continuation in holding on to your money instead of supporting Stefan with donations. (if you really did not that is). Stefan is doing quite a lot for Trump, so why do you want to see the United States burn down?

 

I assume this is proper and acceptable dialogue for you?

[Donnadogsoth]

You'd really rather see the country burn for the sake of your foolish pride in upholding your statement in this thread. You could really do some things for Trump right now that will be much more effective than trying to change Dsayers mind, so why do you want to see USA in flames?

 

and

 

You'd really rather see the country burn for the sake of your relentless continuation in holding on to your money instead of supporting Stefan with donations. (if you really did not that is). Stefan is doing quite a lot for Trump, so why do you want to see the United States burn down?

 

I assume this is proper and acceptable dialogue for you?

 

You're right, I could be doing more.  But what?  How can we save the election for Trump?  We've got ten days.  What should we do?  I'm not in the position to donate, and I don't live in the US (though I know I will be affected by the election outcome).

 

EDIT:  I apologise for coming across as un-Christian, to dsayers.  It is not my intent to paint anyone black.  Dsayers appears to have integrity and the courage of his convictions even if his argument against voting is wrong and is, in principle, from a societal perspective, suicidal.

[Three]

. You have no empirical evidence Trump will accomplish a single stated goal as president. You have no empirical evidence. 

Less than a week in.

[Tyler H]

Less than a week in.

Yeah, I've been surprised - he's killing it as POTUS