Is Makeup Really That Bad?

[Mole]

Shaving does not say much about a woman's virtue other than she puts effort into being aesthetically pleasing. An argument could be made that men ought to judge women insofar as they put effort into their makeup, the same way they put effort into shaving, for example. It should follow that, a man should not see makeup as manipulation, since he does not judge her on the virtue of her genetic aesthetics. Just like how a man should not judge a woman by how naturally hairy her armpits are because that is obviously out of her control. Since there's moral value in genetic aesthetics, then there should be nothing to lie about, since lying is pretending to have moral values that don't in fact exist.

 

You might object by saying then, what's the point of makeup if all that it will do is attract bad men? Isn't it an indicator that you want to attract bad men who judge women upon their genetic aesthetics? Well, perhaps those 'bad men' are not judging her on her genetic aesthetics at all, and rather are appreciating the effort she put into her makeup. It is said that makeup can make any girl look good, and the uglier you are, the more you should do. So I would say that many men, perhaps most men even, don't appreciate to see ugly women because it shows they are not taking care of themselves. Why such a concern about makeup? Because it makes people feel good. Yes, it does make women make more fertile, and yes, that arouses men. There's not much we can do about changing our instincts so what is wrong with catering to it? Also, it's hard to think of makeup as lying since there's no rational thought in a man's mind when he sees a woman. It's all instinct. A man does not critically evaluate the appearance of a woman based on some criteria, rather he just has some kind of feelings. I guess you're tricking the instincts of a man while wearing makeup, but men do this to themselves when they lock the door and y'know and they are fully aware of it. It's not like if a man knew about this 'manipulation' that suddenly he'll see the woman as utterly disgusting. It's fundamental to art that we have this ability to trick our instincts. It's not the same as manipulating a rational agent.  It could be argued that men renting sports cars is a morally different since gaining wealth requires so many more virtues like discipline and assertiveness. In that sense, a man would be lying about the virtues he possesses. But regardless, perhaps men should spend money on women simply because it makes them feel good, in small ways that wouldn't hinder on any perception on virtue. And guess what? That's exactly what men do! I.e. paying for the first date.

 

Since these aesthetics are all evaluated subjectively, perhaps it should be left as such that people may express themselves upon how they feel about what is pleasing. That seems to be exactly the state we are in now. A man does not care to clean his room because he does not feel much about it. For a woman, it is generally Vice Versa. It has nothing to do with rational planning for some future, that itself requires some kind of motivation. Perhaps a man should date a girl who wears makeup solely if it makes him feel good. What's the limit? Perhaps the limit is the point where makeup gets in the way of her other virtues, like how the gym can get in the way of work for a man. In the future, should people be able to choose designer masks that are ultra-realistic? Perhaps. Perhaps it'll be seen like another piece of clothing. What should a good man do? Don't worry about her looks but enjoy them while you can, and only care insofar as you can appreciate the effort she puts into making you feel good. And stay away from girls who wear way too much all the time. They are really the viscous ones. I think this is what most women would think about makeup. Even if you think makeup is wrong. You must admit that most girls have been misled, they aren't trying to suck your resources. Morality is all about intention. Actually, maybe we can make that a good rule of thumb and say makeup is not because simply for the fact that women don't intent to manipulate. Maybe that rule of thumb can be used for other things too... interesting.  It's all about human nature. People just like things because it's their human nature. Because of human nature, men got off the titanic last. It's far too traumatising for women to go through the experience of barely surviving. It's simply because their evolutionarily not used to a situation like that. Nothing wrong with it. You may say how can you say a man's life is not precious. Well, how can you say anyone's life is more precious? In times like that you treat every life equally, and judge upon survivability. I'd really like to hear some responses and I apologise if I haven't been clear. Feel free to ask questions.

[Wuzzums]

The contention people have with make-up is not that it's for attracting men, it's that it's for tricking men into finding women more attractive than they are. Or it's to hide how unattractive they are.

The male equivalent of make-up is not shaving or grooming of any sort. The male equivalent is me telling lies about my life/job/person in order to appear more desirable than I actually am.

 

I think make-up is a great invention and should be supported 100%. Whenever I see a woman with a lot of make-up on I know for a fact they're to be avoided at all costs. Saves us all a lot of time.

[DaVinci]

The contention people have with make-up is not that it's for attracting men, it's that it's for tricking men into finding women more attractive than they are. Or it's to hide how unattractive they are.

The male equivalent of make-up is not shaving or grooming of any sort. The male equivalent is me telling lies about my life/job/person in order to appear more desirable than I actually am.

 

I think make-up is a great invention and should be supported 100%. Whenever I see a woman with a lot of make-up on I know for a fact they're to be avoided at all costs. Saves us all a lot of time.

 

Actually many women find an unshaven man more desirable than a clean shaven or fully bearded man. 

[Mole]

The contention people have with make-up is not that it's for attracting men, it's that it's for tricking men into finding women more attractive than they are. Or it's to hide how unattractive they are.

The male equivalent of make-up is not shaving or grooming of any sort. The male equivalent is me telling lies about my life/job/person in order to appear more desirable than I actually am.

 

I think make-up is a great invention and should be supported 100%. Whenever I see a woman with a lot of make-up on I know for a fact they're to be avoided at all costs. Saves us all a lot of time.

But the difference between make-up and say, renting a sports car is that having the wealth for a sports car describes virtues greater than just taking care of yourself. Yes, it's trickery but it's not lying because a man's instincts is not a rational judgment. Men trick themselves when they watch videos on the internet. Why should a man expect a woman to not be wearing makeup? If women really wanted to trick men, they would say they it's all natural. Think about the intent, accusing women of lying says something about their moral character which isn't true for most women, even though they wear makeup. The reason why men care about a woman's looks is because they appreciate the effort they go through so they can feel a bit better instinctually. Nothing more nothing less. That can't be said about wealth.

[Wuzzums]

But the difference between make-up and say, renting a sports car is that having the wealth for a sports car describes virtues greater than just taking care of yourself. Yes, it's trickery but it's not lying because a man's instincts is not a rational judgment. Men trick themselves when they watch videos on the internet. Why should a man expect a woman to not be wearing makeup? If women really wanted to trick men, they would say they it's all natural. Think about the intent, accusing women of lying says something about their moral character which isn't true for most women, even though they wear makeup. The reason why men care about a woman's looks is because they appreciate the effort they go through so they can feel a bit better instinctually. Nothing more nothing less. That can't be said about wealth.

 

I never said men should expect women not to be wearing make-up.

I think we're having a disagreement on what constitutes make-up or not. Again, to me make-up is any applied tricks to make someone look more attractive than they actually are. I don't consider some foundation to hide some acne to be egregious. Zits are temporary but in that particular day she's less attractive than she normally is, so some make-up of that sort doesn't say anything about her person.

 

I do think there's a lot to say about the character of a woman that's attractive naturally and still wears glam-level make-up. None of which are good things.

 

Personally speaking, I have a trained eye so what make-up does is just hide features that I would normally pick on which bothers me. However professionally done make-up is a different beast entirely. The type of make-up we see in movies that makes it seem they're wearing zero make-up yet are somehow way more attractive than in real life. Gotta say that's just amazing to me and I have nothing against it.

[thecurrentyear]

I agree with Mole and found this article highly educational: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/feminine-beauty-is-highly-controllable.html

 

In much the same way that men are fully in control of their wealth (within the bounds of their inherited intelligence and with the help of some familial connections), women are also fully in control of their beauty (within the bounds of their genetic inheritance and whatever wisdom the women of the family handed down).

 

Improvements or deficiencies in wealth creation and beauty are corollaries, and important indicators of one's own: self-worth, work ethic (wearing makeup daily, keeping up with style/trends/wardrobe needs, exercise & diet are a lot of daily work!), and respect for the partner who they hope to keep happy for the rest of their lives. 

[rosencrantz]

Make up makes sense from an evolutionary psychological perspective. Using make up the right away means that women amplify desirable features (clear skin, stress contours, focus on the lips and the eyes) which increases their status and the possibility for procreation and the chance of their offsprings survival. And like in most attributes that have to deal with status, there is an arms race going on. What is normal now would have been regarded as extravagant 20 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis

[dsayers]

When I started pursuing self-knowledge, I began to get turned off by makeup in general. My mother spent lots of time every day putting makeup on, just for around the house. It was indication of a lack of inner beauty. This was and still is my bias.

 

Then Stef had done a video on makeup and I felt vindicated. In it, he talked about the way a woman's lips and cheeks can become flush during arousal. I had no idea what he was talking about at almost 40 years of age!

 

Then I met a woman who had already decided for herself to stop wearing makeup. She noticed that the quality of men that would approach her and the quality of topics that would approach her about improved conspicuously. It was one of many decision/efforts she had made to improve herself. She was so impressive to me in every way that we got engaged.

 

For the first time, I got to see what Stef was talking about. The way her lips and cheeks would signal how she was feeling. Even the areas around her eyes assisted in my empathizing with her in the moment. Sometimes even detecting her feelings/moods before she did. Having known that, I don't think I could ever settle for a less organic experience.

 

Then when we were together, I also noticed how much less time and money she spent on such frivolity. So yes, even though I was turned off by makeup before, I am thoroughly opposed to it. Yes, I shower and shave and I realize there is a fine line between self-care and compensation. So I also look for practicality. Such as manner of dress. Is the woman practical? Or is she putting herself forward as a trophy of sorts.

 

None of which is a deal-breaker per se, but have I ever been spoiled! I would rather a woman lead with her self-knowledge than her outer beauty. And I'm not one to judge. I bite my nails, including my toes. I see it as pragmatic. It even has the nifty side effect of boosting my immune system. Though I would fully understand it being written off as unprocessed trauma and/or an otherwise bad habit. So I try not to isolate myself over such things. In the end, I also very much enjoy a lack of makeup because it is counter-culture. Most of what I would want in a partner is, so that's a promising signal for me.

[DCLugi]

Make up makes sense from an evolutionary psychological perspective. Using make up the right away means that women amplify desirable features (clear skin, stress contours, focus on the lips and the eyes) which increases their status and the possibility for procreation and the chance of their offsprings survival. And like in most attributes that have to deal with status, there is an arms race going on. What is normal now would have been regarded as extravagant 20 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis

Voting for welfare also makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. I'm unable to compete in a free market but I can guilt people into funding my survival. The words "Make up" are descriptive enough. Make up for something that isn't real. I have no problem with anyone wanting to paint their face for some desired effect (I've been in drag as Christopher Walken's mother) but don't pretend that it's actually a part of what you have to offer as a mate. That would be the same as me using someone else's bank statement. 

[rosencrantz]

There are two different types of questions here that confuse people when they are put together as one. The first one is functional and etymological: What role does make up play in a social setting and what are the origins. The answer to that are purely descriptive.
The other one is aesthetical. Do you fake to be somebody else when you put on make up and how should I relate to somebody wearing make up? Since wearing make up is not a violation of the NAP (unlike wearing obnoxious perfume) the answer to that is personal. If you like make up, fine if not that's fine as well. 

[taraelizabeth21]

There are two different types of questions here that confuse people when they are put together as one. The first one is functional and etymological: What role does make up play in a social setting and what are the origins. The answer to that are purely descriptive.

The other one is aesthetical. Do you fake to be somebody else when you put on make up and how should I relate to somebody wearing make up? Since wearing make up is not a violation of the NAP (unlike wearing obnoxious perfume) the answer to that is personal. If you like make up, fine if not that's fine as well. 

 

So, just gonna share some thoughts. I think I might be the only woman on this thread so far? (I apologize if I'm wrong about that). I think probably barring extreme cases where someone is maybe wearing a prosthetic nose or significantly attempting to alter their appearance with the intent of deceiving someone else, wearing make up is not a moral issue. Stefan has pointed out in some podcasts the sexual nature of makeup and its role in sexual arousal/attraction. So it can give a lot of clues about how a woman feels about herself.

 

But you have to understand that, as a woman in the work force, not wearing makeup puts you at a huge disadvantage. (http://www.hngn.com/articles/15359/20131020/women-who-wear-makeup-most-likely-to-get-hired-and-be-promoted-survey.htm)

 

I took a vocal stance against makeup for a long time and really had to eat those words when I applied for a promotion at my job. I started wearing makeup and it had a massive impact on the way that my bosses and coworkers viewed me. So keep in mind that those statistics exist when evaluating how much makeup a woman does or does not wear. I thought Wuzzums made a good point here in relation to dating: 

 

The contention people have with make-up is not that it's for attracting men, it's that it's for tricking men into finding women more attractive than they are. Or it's to hide how unattractive they are.

The male equivalent of make-up is not shaving or grooming of any sort. The male equivalent is me telling lies about my life/job/person in order to appear more desirable than I actually am.

 

I think make-up is a great invention and should be supported 100%. Whenever I see a woman with a lot of make-up on I know for a fact they're to be avoided at all costs. Saves us all a lot of time.

 

There is something to be said for noticing how much time and effort women put into wearing makeup and noting their relationship with it on an individual basis. Like, if your girl can't go for a run without filling in her eyebrows first, you know, you might have a problem. But unfortunately in the workplace it's kindof a requirement if you want to be looked upon favorably by superiors and coworkers alike. There are a lot of ways to tell if a woman is vain and empty, and I think heavy reliance on makeup/unwillngness to be seen without it is definitely one indicator.

 

However, in the dating world, I think it would be a mistake to say that any woman who goes out in public and presents herself to strangers while wearing makeup is automatically looking to deceive and is horrible/vain. The truth of the matter is that in the workplace you're received better while wearing makeup, and I can't imagine that that doesn't extend into the dating world. Besides, if a woman is looking to date you and spends some extra time putting on makeup to help appear attractive to you, that's an effect that she can replicate in other scenarios, so I don't see it as false advertising. And, I mean, if you don't like a woman as soon as she takes her makeup off then she's probably a bad person... and also wearing a shit ton of makeup. I wear makeup all the time and I can't imagine wearing so much that it would obscure what my actual face looks like or enhance my attractiveness enough to make someone who wasn't attracted to me at all suddenly be mad with desire. 

 

It's cool to get this insight, though, so, if anyone takes issue with anything I've said I'd love to hear more about it

[Wuzzums]

But unfortunately in the workplace it's kindof a requirement if you want to be looked upon favorably by superiors and coworkers alike. 

 

 

You're not looked upon favorably because you're wearing make-up, you're looked upon favorably because you're prettier. Make-up just accentuates that.

Speaking as a man I shouldn't be the one to explain this to you, a woman, but men lose their fucking minds around a pretty woman. It's an unconditional response. Animals start salivating when they see food, men go insane when they see an attractive female. It's biology.

 

Attractiveness is a form of power.

Make-up enhances attractiveness.

A woman wearing make-up while not engaging in mate-hunting is akin to a guy with an open-carry firearm. Neither have the intention of using it but they do sure feel better (more powerful) with it at their side.

 

Here's another analogy.

There are 2 identical twin brothers that you find equally attractive.

Who do you go on a date with, the one driving a Porche or the one driving a Lada?

What if you find out the Porche is a rental? Do you shrug it off or is it deceit?

What if he rents a Porche out even when he has to do groceries. What would that say about his person?

[thecurrentyear]

Haven't read all the rest of the replies but I was responded of something more I wanted to add:

 

When out in public, makeup serves a similar purpose to stage makeup for actors. It amplifies the features to project to someone across a room or store or street. They wouldn't otherwise be able to see your beauty from so far away. We don't often get very close face-to-face with people we are first meeting or haven't met, so makeup helps get attention to make that close contact occur. Then you can examine closer.

[Mole]

I never said men should expect women not to be wearing make-up.

I think we're having a disagreement on what constitutes make-up or not. Again, to me make-up is any applied tricks to make someone look more attractive than they actually are. I don't consider some foundation to hide some acne to be egregious. Zits are temporary but in that particular day she's less attractive than she normally is, so some make-up of that sort doesn't say anything about her person.

 

I do think there's a lot to say about the character of a woman that's attractive naturally and still wears glam-level make-up. None of which are good things.

 

Personally speaking, I have a trained eye so what make-up does is just hide features that I would normally pick on which bothers me. However professionally done make-up is a different beast entirely. The type of make-up we see in movies that makes it seem they're wearing zero make-up yet are somehow way more attractive than in real life. Gotta say that's just amazing to me and I have nothing against it.

Why is it bad to use makeup to seem more attractive than you actually are? My whole argument is trying to oppose this claim.

So, just gonna share some thoughts. I think I might be the only woman on this thread so far? (I apologize if I'm wrong about that). I think probably barring extreme cases where someone is maybe wearing a prosthetic nose or significantly attempting to alter their appearance with the intent of deceiving someone else, wearing make up is not a moral issue. Stefan has pointed out in some podcasts the sexual nature of makeup and its role in sexual arousal/attraction. So it can give a lot of clues about how a woman feels about herself.

 

But you have to understand that, as a woman in the work force, not wearing makeup puts you at a huge disadvantage. (http://www.hngn.com/articles/15359/20131020/women-who-wear-makeup-most-likely-to-get-hired-and-be-promoted-survey.htm)

 

I took a vocal stance against makeup for a long time and really had to eat those words when I applied for a promotion at my job. I started wearing makeup and it had a massive impact on the way that my bosses and coworkers viewed me. So keep in mind that those statistics exist when evaluating how much makeup a woman does or does not wear. I thought Wuzzums made a good point here in relation to dating: 

 

 

There is something to be said for noticing how much time and effort women put into wearing makeup and noting their relationship with it on an individual basis. Like, if your girl can't go for a run without filling in her eyebrows first, you know, you might have a problem. But unfortunately in the workplace it's kindof a requirement if you want to be looked upon favorably by superiors and coworkers alike. There are a lot of ways to tell if a woman is vain and empty, and I think heavy reliance on makeup/unwillngness to be seen without it is definitely one indicator.

 

However, in the dating world, I think it would be a mistake to say that any woman who goes out in public and presents herself to strangers while wearing makeup is automatically looking to deceive and is horrible/vain. The truth of the matter is that in the workplace you're received better while wearing makeup, and I can't imagine that that doesn't extend into the dating world. Besides, if a woman is looking to date you and spends some extra time putting on makeup to help appear attractive to you, that's an effect that she can replicate in other scenarios, so I don't see it as false advertising. And, I mean, if you don't like a woman as soon as she takes her makeup off then she's probably a bad person... and also wearing a shit ton of makeup. I wear makeup all the time and I can't imagine wearing so much that it would obscure what my actual face looks like or enhance my attractiveness enough to make someone who wasn't attracted to me at all suddenly be mad with desire. 

 

It's cool to get this insight, though, so, if anyone takes issue with anything I've said I'd love to hear more about it

I think there is a moral difference between the workplace and dating. Imagine you are living in the 1700's aristocracy, you are expected to wear makeup, but you have the same views about makeup as you do now. I would think you would still wear makeup because the repercussions are too huge. In such a situation, not wearing makeup would be a sign of courage, while wearing makeup in the dating scene today could be a sign of cowardice. Same could be applied to the workplace. Not wearing makeup would be a sign of courage, so you can't really say that a woman wearing makeup in the workplace would be a vice. She could just be worried about repercussions. Same could be said about weddings. The peer pressure is just too huge. In addition to all this, one could argue that, especially if you are dealing with customers, the workplace is much like reality television. The workplace is not a place for dating, therefore it's not appropriate to say that you would be tricking men. People wear makeup on reality television for obvious reasons. It makes the show nicer to watch, nobody is expecting to get a date from an X Factor contestant. All of this, of course, assumes makeup is bad for a relationship or in the dating scene, which I also question.

I'd like to add an insight to the conversation that I had thought about yesterday when actually asking a teenage girl for her opinion. It's very important when speaking to people, especially women about this issue to not conflate THEIR behaviour with lying. If a medieval doctor does not know his leeches are hurting his patients, he has not committed assault. Likewise, if a woman does not know the consequences of makeup, she is not lying. Indeed, it is our obligation to teach them why it is a form of lying, if we believe so, but not to accuse them of it. Unfortunately, Iv'e only realised now, when you actually talk to women about this issue, they take deep offense because they assume that you are judging their intentions, while you are actually judging the consenquences of their actions. Indeed, this is what most people think as soon as you bring up any moral topic. People generally don't know we are living in a matrix where right is wrong, so when you show them why right is wrong, they think you are insisting they are wrong. That they have nefarious aims. But that is not true. So, as I have learned, and I really wish I was more empathetic to see this earlier, I think it's important to point this out when you are talking to a woman about this topic.

 

Desite all of this, remember that men are the other side of the same coin. If it is not virtuous for a woman to wear makeup, it must also not be virtuous for a man to fall for it, since we are talking about voluntary relationships. I still hold that makeup is not a form of lying, and while it may 'trick' a man's senses, that is not the same as actually manipulating a man's moral judgement. I still hold that makeup is morally equivalent to a man grooming his facial hair. The only moral judgement that should be made about a woman or man wearing makeup or grooming their facial hair is to appreciate that they are trying to do something nice for you. Other than that, it does not say anything about their virtues. And if a woman does not wear makeup, similarly, you can only judge her insofar as you don't appreciate the fact that she doesn't really care to make herself look good for you (unless she has some moral belief from religion or indeed, from freedomain radio), and it does not speak at all about any other virtues. To conclude, a good man does not care about the genetic aesthetics of a woman since it does not speak about her virtue, therefore makeup is not a form of lying since it does not emulate any virtues. Furthermore, it could be argued that makeup is virtuous insofar as it being a kind of self-grooming. With self-grooming being a positive thing simply because people find it aesthetically pleasing, from an evolutionary standpoint. It does not need any other reason to be a virtue. It's similar to having regular physical contact in a relationship. It is only rational because we have unchangeable instinctive desires. It has nothing to do with future planning. And perhaps some people are instinctively aromatic, and we should not judge those people for not wearing makeup. I guess makeup can then be seen as a sort of indicator of one's own instinctive drives, which is totally subjective. So perhaps we should not generally judge women for wearing makeup, which indeed most people don't. Most of the time the response I get from a woman is "They can do it if they want, I'm not them, I don't care, do you really want to date an ugly woman?". There might actually be something to it, but I was unempathetic to see it at the time.

[dsayers]

unfortunately in the workplace it's kindof a requirement if you want to be looked upon favorably by superiors and coworkers alike.

Wuzzums offered good push back to this. I just wanted to add that it's subjective, so no absolute statement could be true. Since finding self-knowledge (why is nobody else touching that variable), I tend to look down on makeup and actively try to compensate for the ways in which as a male, my body is designed to ease my inhibitions at the proposition of the possibility of reproducing. Using this perspective, one could also say that wearing a short skirt would have you being seen as more favorable in the workplace... to those who only think of you as your body. Somebody like me, who is more interested in your personality and productivity could actually potentially mark you down for this blatant attempt at artificial value.

 

I think there is a moral difference between the workplace and dating.

You need to define moral then. For a behavior to have any moral component, it must be binding upon others. Applying makeup to one's self does not fit the criteria.

[taraelizabeth21]

You're not looked upon favorably because you're wearing make-up, you're looked upon favorably because you're prettier. Make-up just accentuates that.

Speaking as a man I shouldn't be the one to explain this to you, a woman, but men lose their fucking minds around a pretty woman. It's an unconditional response. Animals start salivating when they see food, men go insane when they see an attractive female. It's biology.

 

Attractiveness is a form of power.

Make-up enhances attractiveness.

A woman wearing make-up while not engaging in mate-hunting is akin to a guy with an open-carry firearm. Neither have the intention of using it but they do sure feel better (more powerful) with it at their side.

 

Here's another analogy.

There are 2 identical twin brothers that you find equally attractive.

Who do you go on a date with, the one driving a Porche or the one driving a Lada?

What if you find out the Porche is a rental? Do you shrug it off or is it deceit?

What if he rents a Porche out even when he has to do groceries. What would that say about his person?

 

I mean, I don't really know how much it has to do with how attractive I am or not. Obviously I'm not unattractive but I don't feel that I stand out amongst the general population at my office. I work in Customer Service/Sales. There are A LOT of better looking women than me around. I got direct feedback from my female boss that my fashion and presentation choices affected the way I was seen around the workplace. 

 

This went from not wearing makeup at all for the entire first year of working there and being rejected for a promotion... To wearing makeup and within months getting promoted. Obviously there are other factors as to why that happened, but, honestly, it's not something women can just ignore. I tried to do so at my own expense and had to amend my views. 

 

Personally I wish that I didn't have to work or think about it at all. When you're a wife and mother you don't really need to put as much time and effort into your appearance because you're concerned with more important things like... I dunno... raising the next generation, but, financially that's not in the cards for me right now. 

 

But, Wuzzums, to address your point... I guess if I was only dating the one twin because I liked his car... then I'd be angry if I found out it was a rental? I don't want to be difficult in following your analogy though. Finances do definitely factor into things when it comes to choosing a man, but it's hard to imagine the scenario you're talking about. I honestly feel like I would need to know more details. Maybe you could explain more of what you are getting at? 

[taraelizabeth21]

 Unfortunately, Iv'e only realised now, when you actually talk to women about this issue, they take deep offense because they assume that you are judging their intentions, while you are actually judging the consenquences of their actions. 

 

This is so true! Makeup is a difficult subject for so many women, including me. I've gotten in fights with friends and ex-boyfriends about it. Definitely a contentious issue. I think maybe it's difficult to discuss what is actually going on beneath the surface psychologically for a lot of women

[Mole]

You're not looked upon favorably because you're wearing make-up, you're looked upon favorably because you're prettier. Make-up just accentuates that.

Speaking as a man I shouldn't be the one to explain this to you, a woman, but men lose their fucking minds around a pretty woman. It's an unconditional response. Animals start salivating when they see food, men go insane when they see an attractive female. It's biology.

 

Attractiveness is a form of power.

Make-up enhances attractiveness.

A woman wearing make-up while not engaging in mate-hunting is akin to a guy with an open-carry firearm. Neither have the intention of using it but they do sure feel better (more powerful) with it at their side.

 

Here's another analogy.

There are 2 identical twin brothers that you find equally attractive.

Who do you go on a date with, the one driving a Porche or the one driving a Lada?

What if you find out the Porche is a rental? Do you shrug it off or is it deceit?

What if he rents a Porche out even when he has to do groceries. What would that say about his person?

It's true a man likes the beauty of a woman, but I think he likes it whether it's genetic or not. That liking is instinctive. If a man truly does not like makeup, he would literally see women who wear makeup as ugly, yet it doesn't. What a man likes is out of his control. His instinctive liking and moral judgment are very different. What he likes about a woman in a moral sense or more precisely, what he admires about a woman is not her beauty, but the effort she puts into her beauty. A man cannot control his instinctive nature, likewise, a woman cannot control her genetics. I think you are conflating moral judgement and instinctive desire. When people actually go out and date, they should value the person for the things they can control, not the things they cannot. Beauty is something a woman CAN control. It doesn't matter if it's genetic or not. A moral man doesn't care about her genetics since that is out of her control. So why is it manipulation? Why is it lying if she's not pretending to have virtues she doesn't possess. Her intention is probably not to manipulate you. Her intention is to make you feel good, because you're a man, and men like pretty things, and she knows that's not in your control.

[Wuzzums]

Why is it bad to use makeup to seem more attractive than you actually are? My whole argument is trying to oppose this claim.

I never said that it's bad or good. Not in a moral sense at least.

 

A man cannot control his instinctive nature, likewise, a woman cannot control her genetics.

 

No. Humans can understand and therefore control our instincts. This is what defines us as a species.

 

When people actually go out and date, they should value the person for the things they can control, not the things they cannot. Beauty is something a woman CAN control. It doesn't matter if it's genetic or not. A moral man doesn't care about her genetics since that is out of her control.

Yes, she has power over me that I do not hold over her. In order to level the playing field I have not only to look good but also start a successful business and work 12h a day. Compare that to spending about 30min on make-up each day. I'm really not impressed by the fact a woman has make-up on.

 

 

So why is it manipulation? Why is it lying if she's not pretending to have virtues she doesn't possess. Her intention is probably not to manipulate you. Her intention is to make you feel good, because you're a man, and men like pretty things, and she knows that's not in your control.

 

Intention cannot be manipulation, manipulation is a process, intention is a result. Therefore you could say her intention is to make me feel good fullstop or her intention is to make me feel good in order to get something else out of me. Would you not consider the latter to be manipulative seeing how I cannot resist because pretty?

[Mole]

I never said that it's bad or good. Not in a moral sense at least.

 

No. Humans can understand and therefore control our instincts. This is what defines us as a species.

 

Yes, she has power over me that I do not hold over her. In order to level the playing field I have not only to look good but also start a successful business and work 12h a day. Compare that to spending about 30min on make-up each day. I'm really not impressed by the fact a woman has make-up on.

 

 

Intention cannot be manipulation, manipulation is a process, intention is a result. Therefore you could say her intention is to make me feel good fullstop or her intention is to make me feel good in order to get something else out of me. Would you not consider the latter to be manipulative seeing how I cannot resist because pretty?

I see, I misunderstood, sorry about that. I think I see what you mean now.

 

sorry, perhaps I should say the ability to change rather than control.

 

I'm not quite sure if I understand your third response and maybe that also the reason that I don't understand how it relates to what I said. I don't know what power means. I'm not sure if male and female attractive features are really comparable. I'm very young and not rich, and I find girls around my age attractive. Should I think that since she has 'power over me' that she doesn't find me attractive because I'm young and not rich? I don't think that's very comparable. The attractiveness metre for women cannot be applied to men, in my opinion. I can only understand you insofar that in some subcultures in society, women have a lot of power for being beautiful young prostitutes, gold diggers, 'manthers' etc and the men have power for being rich and taking all these women. Other than that I don't know what you mean by power. If you measuring sexual attraction, then again, I would say that the measurement between men and women is not comparable.

 

Intention is a result?? Do you mean intention is the expected result? Because obviously intent exists before the action occurs. Her intention is not just the expected result, though, it is also the process. Behind all behaviour exists intention for that particular behaviour. If I steal cash from a bank, it was both my intention to steal and also my intention to have cash. But strictly within the bounds of the moral behaviour, which in this case is theft, my intention was to steal, no more no less. So, when I'm speaking about makeup as a form of lying, and talk about her not having the intention to manipulate you, I'm speaking strictly within the bounds of that behaviour, namely the behaviour being lying and the intention being the intention to lie. If she did it 'in order to get something else of out me' (assuming, that she wouldn't have gotten if she was being honest), then she must have intended to lie since she's fully conscious of why she's doing it and how she's not being honest, and why she needs to not be honest, i.e. lie. I understand that you are trying to make it as if manipulation is a means to an end, but if she has an intention to lie, within the bounds of her intention to lie, manipulation is an end, and not a means. I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't confuse what would be intention with one set of ends and means with another set of ends and means. Hopefully, I make sense, because it's actually a big mistake many thinkers make. Applying things beyond the bounds that are required for the thing to exist, so to speak.

[dsayers]

Would you not consider the latter to be manipulative seeing how I cannot resist because pretty?

While I don't think "cannot resist" is accurate, I'm glad you phrased it this way. To me, manipulation is being dishonest for the purpose of altering the thoughts, feelings, or behaviors of another. As such, wearing makeup is manipulative!

[ValueOfBrevity]

The contention people have with make-up is not that it's for attracting men, it's that it's for tricking men into finding women more attractive than they are. Or it's to hide how unattractive they are.

The male equivalent of make-up is not shaving or grooming of any sort. The male equivalent is me telling lies about my life/job/person in order to appear more desirable than I actually am.

 

I think make-up is a great invention and should be supported 100%. Whenever I see a woman with a lot of make-up on I know for a fact they're to be avoided at all costs. Saves us all a lot of time.

When I see women with even moderate makeup, my penis emits an audible "nope".

 

 

I agree with Mole and found this article highly educational: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/feminine-beauty-is-highly-controllable.html

 

In much the same way that men are fully in control of their wealth (within the bounds of their inherited intelligence and with the help of some familial connections), women are also fully in control of their beauty (within the bounds of their genetic inheritance and whatever wisdom the women of the family handed down).

 

Improvements or deficiencies in wealth creation and beauty are corollaries, and important indicators of one's own: self-worth, work ethic (wearing makeup daily, keeping up with style/trends/wardrobe needs, exercise & diet are a lot of daily work!), and respect for the partner who they hope to keep happy for the rest of their lives. 

 

Then why don't most men wear makeup if it's such an indication of self-worth?

[thecurrentyear]

When I see women with even moderate makeup, my penis emits an audible "nope".

 

 

 

 

Then why don't most men wear makeup if it's such an indication of self-worth?

.

 

Because it's not attractive to women--resources are. Just as resources are not attractive to men--beauty is.

[Wuzzums]

 

But, Wuzzums, to address your point... I guess if I was only dating the one twin because I liked his car... then I'd be angry if I found out it was a rental? I don't want to be difficult in following your analogy though. Finances do definitely factor into things when it comes to choosing a man, but it's hard to imagine the scenario you're talking about. I honestly feel like I would need to know more details. Maybe you could explain more of what you are getting at? 

A nice car, a nice watch, a nice phone, these are all trappings of success. However success is sufficient but not required to get those things therefore a man can just make himself look successful without having any success. Indeed financial status is a factor in mate selection for a woman therefore a man can raise his sexual market value by simply putting on the "I'm successful" costume/make-up.

When you find out that the nice car is just a nice car and wasn't acquired through success-enabling characteristics won't you feel somehow tricked?

 

 

I mean, I don't really know how much it has to do with how attractive I am or not. Obviously I'm not unattractive but I don't feel that I stand out amongst the general population at my office. I work in Customer Service/Sales. There are A LOT of better looking women than me around. I got direct feedback from my female boss that my fashion and presentation choices affected the way I was seen around the workplace. 

 

This went from not wearing makeup at all for the entire first year of working there and being rejected for a promotion... To wearing makeup and within months getting promoted. Obviously there are other factors as to why that happened, but, honestly, it's not something women can just ignore. I tried to do so at my own expense and had to amend my views. 

 

Personally I wish that I didn't have to work or think about it at all. When you're a wife and mother you don't really need to put as much time and effort into your appearance because you're concerned with more important things like... I dunno... raising the next generation, but, financially that's not in the cards for me right now. 

 

I don't consider your workplace scenario to be manipulative. Indeed when dealing with customers professionalism is a must and not wearing the business attire, make-up included, might be an indication of how serious you take the job or not.

 

I think what we should've done in this whole conversation is make a distinction between the scenarios in which make-up is involved. I immediately assumed we were talking about women wearing make-up in a first date/first impression type of scenario. Someone going nude on a beach is considered to be "meh, whatever". Someone going nude in a mall is considered to be mentally deranged.

 

A married woman wearing make-up on a date with her husband most likely falls within the parameters OP first described, how it's an indication of her taking care of herself and appreciating her man.

[brucethecollie]

My daughter asks, "why do you put on chemicals all over your face?" I'm trying to figure out how to answer her because the truth has to do with my self-esteem issues. Because my husband doesn't treat me any different when I don't wear makeup (which is half the time). I suppose I do like the creative aspect, it feels soothing like painting a picture. But it also feels like a protective mask to deflect the perceived thoughts and the real comments from others. Women who don't wear makeup often get a lot of criticism from people close to her.

 

But, what I think makes a lot of sense to me is something my brother told me: "Men just want women to be women and to try and be healthy and fit, no makeup can replace that." As my health suffers over time and this is coupled with aging, I find it harder to let go of the make up brush. I feel that way and I'm not hideous or old or in poor health. So I wonder how many women out there are in a kind of defense mode with makeup. 

 

Anyway, I've been wearing makeup much more infrequently as of late and my son said the other day, "I love your face, mommy, especially when it looks happy". And then I could remember all the beautiful women I've seen who regardless of wearing or not wearing makeup, were beautiful because of who they were and how they treated others. 

[ValueOfBrevity]

Because it's not attractive to women--resources are. Just as resources are not attractive to men--beauty is.

 

How are resources not attractive to men?

Female resources are better for offspring as well.

 

How is beauty not attractive to women?

Attractive (good looking) men get more women.

 

A nice car, a nice watch, a nice phone, these are all trappings of success. However success is sufficient but not required to get those things therefore a man can just make himself look successful without having any success. Indeed financial status is a factor in mate selection for a woman therefore a man can raise his sexual market value by simply putting on the "I'm successful" costume/make-up.

When you find out that the nice car is just a nice car and wasn't acquired through success-enabling characteristics won't you feel somehow tricked?

 

 

I don't consider your workplace scenario to be manipulative. Indeed when dealing with customers professionalism is a must and not wearing the business attire, make-up included, might be an indication of how serious you take the job or not.

 

I think what we should've done in this whole conversation is make a distinction between the scenarios in which make-up is involved. I immediately assumed we were talking about women wearing make-up in a first date/first impression type of scenario. Someone going nude on a beach is considered to be "meh, whatever". Someone going nude in a mall is considered to be mentally deranged.

 

A married woman wearing make-up on a date with her husband most likely falls within the parameters OP first described, how it's an indication of her taking care of herself and appreciating her man.

 

I don't find it very appreciative of any individual to lie to them. 

Makeup is not a function of hygiene. 

 

A man who dresses in nice suits but is dirt poor is lying, too.

 

 

[Wuzzums]

 

A man who dresses in nice suits but is dirt poor is lying, too.

 

 

 

So a lawyer who went bankrupt should stop wearing suits and start wearing t-shirts?

[thecurrentyear]

How are resources not attractive to men?

Female resources are better for offspring as well.

 

How is beauty not attractive to women?

Attractive (good looking) men get more women.

 

 

I don't find it very appreciative of any individual to lie to them. 

Makeup is not a function of hygiene. 

 

A man who dresses in nice suits but is dirt poor is lying, too.

 

 

 

You're being disingenuous. So I will not engage further with you.

[D-Light]

Cosmetics on a woman is like paint on the inside and outside of a house. Paint won't make the house any warmer in the winter. Paint won't make the walls any sturdier or keep the roof from leaking (at least not for very long). Paint won't keep the foundation from washing away or keep the floors from being eaten away by termites. If "the bones" of a house are no good, all a fresh coat of paint will do is serve to temporarily conceal this fact and convince the more inexperienced and shallow investor of a higher value than it rightly deserves.

 

On the other hand, if "the bones" of the house are good, the foundation solid and strong, the walls and roof solid, strong, and in tact, the walls and roof or attic well insulated and the windows well built and maintained, a fresh coat of paint will make the house even more appealing and more attractive to the prospective investor as well as any who ultimately lives in it or frequently sees it. The paint doesn't turn a bad house into a good house, and the lack of paint won't generally turn a good house into a bad one. It will simply make both appear more attractive and pleasant and enhance the experience and enjoyment of both.

 

Cosmetics on a woman (or a man) work exactly the same way. On a woman without many (or any) virtuous qualities, cosmetics and clothing can make her appear more attractive than she actually is to the person who is shallow or only looking for short, temporary enjoyment. For someone looking for a long-term relationship, these will only serve to temporarily conceal the many flaws and other vices she may possess.

 

On the other hand, on a virtuous woman, skillfully selected and applied cosmetics and clothes will only serve to enhance the enjoyment one may experience with her. Her virtuous qualities may still be overlooked by shallow men seeking only passing or transitory interest in her; but such men would be less likely to be interested in her without her "make up"either. The man seeking a virtuous woman will see past her cosmetics and dress to "her bones", he will look to see whether the outward presentation matches the inner reality. And most men will experience greater enjoyment with such a virtuous woman who takes the trouble to present herself in the most attractive way she is able, just as she will experience similar enjoyment from a virtuous man who does likewise.

 

So to answer the thread's titular question... it really all depends on whether it's used to enhance virtue, or conceal vice.

[dsayers]

Women who don't wear makeup often get a lot of criticism from people close to her.

How do you know? Wouldn't this be more of a reflection of her lack of self-knowledge in staffing her support network with people who care about her enough to NOT criticize her for such things than of her choice to not wear makeup? This is the point I keep trying to make and it's surprising to me that nobody else is willing to discuss the correlation with self-knowledge.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

So to answer the thread's titular question... it really all depends on whether it's used to enhance virtue, or conceal vice.

Sounds Aristotilian mean-y. However, I don't see how it could enhance virtue as it would serve as a distraction from that virtue.

[DCLugi]

My daughter asks, "why do you put on chemicals all over your face?" I'm trying to figure out how to answer her because the truth has to do with my self-esteem issues. Because my husband doesn't treat me any different when I don't wear makeup (which is half the time). I suppose I do like the creative aspect, it feels soothing like painting a picture. But it also feels like a protective mask to deflect the perceived thoughts and the real comments from others. Women who don't wear makeup often get a lot of criticism from people close to her.

 

But, what I think makes a lot of sense to me is something my brother told me: "Men just want women to be women and to try and be healthy and fit, no makeup can replace that." As my health suffers over time and this is coupled with aging, I find it harder to let go of the make up brush. I feel that way and I'm not hideous or old or in poor health. So I wonder how many women out there are in a kind of defense mode with makeup. 

 

Anyway, I've been wearing makeup much more infrequently as of late and my son said the other day, "I love your face, mommy, especially when it looks happy". And then I could remember all the beautiful women I've seen who regardless of wearing or not wearing makeup, were beautiful because of who they were and how they treated others. 

Your honest and courageous post made my day.

Cosmetics on a woman is like paint on the inside and outside of a house. Paint won't make the house any warmer in the winter. Paint won't make the walls any sturdier or keep the roof from leaking (at least not for very long). Paint won't keep the foundation from washing away or keep the floors from being eaten away by termites. If "the bones" of a house are no good, all a fresh coat of paint will do is serve to temporarily conceal this fact and convince the more inexperienced and shallow investor of a higher value than it rightly deserves.

 

On the other hand, if "the bones" of the house are good, the foundation solid and strong, the walls and roof solid, strong, and in tact, the walls and roof or attic well insulated and the windows well built and maintained, a fresh coat of paint will make the house even more appealing and more attractive to the prospective investor as well as any who ultimately lives in it or frequently sees it. The paint doesn't turn a bad house into a good house, and the lack of paint won't generally turn a good house into a bad one. It will simply make both appear more attractive and pleasant and enhance the experience and enjoyment of both.

 

Cosmetics on a woman (or a man) work exactly the same way. On a woman without many (or any) virtuous qualities, cosmetics and clothing can make her appear more attractive than she actually is to the person who is shallow or only looking for short, temporary enjoyment. For someone looking for a long-term relationship, these will only serve to temporarily conceal the many flaws and other vices she may possess.

 

On the other hand, on a virtuous woman, skillfully selected and applied cosmetics and clothes will only serve to enhance the enjoyment one may experience with her. Her virtuous qualities may still be overlooked by shallow men seeking only passing or transitory interest in her; but such men would be less likely to be interested in her without her "make up"either. The man seeking a virtuous woman will see past her cosmetics and dress to "her bones", he will look to see whether the outward presentation matches the inner reality. And most men will experience greater enjoyment with such a virtuous woman who takes the trouble to present herself in the most attractive way she is able, just as she will experience similar enjoyment from a virtuous man who does likewise.

 

So to answer the thread's titular question... it really all depends on whether it's used to enhance virtue, or conceal vice.

Good analogy however, makeup can hide health issues. Let's examine lipstick. Pink lips are a sign of health. If someone has dry pale lips it could indicate a deeper problem. Painting them pink won't remedy that problem.

[Mole]

Cosmetics on a woman is like paint on the inside and outside of a house. Paint won't make the house any warmer in the winter. Paint won't make the walls any sturdier or keep the roof from leaking (at least not for very long). Paint won't keep the foundation from washing away or keep the floors from being eaten away by termites. If "the bones" of a house are no good, all a fresh coat of paint will do is serve to temporarily conceal this fact and convince the more inexperienced and shallow investor of a higher value than it rightly deserves.

 

On the other hand, if "the bones" of the house are good, the foundation solid and strong, the walls and roof solid, strong, and in tact, the walls and roof or attic well insulated and the windows well built and maintained, a fresh coat of paint will make the house even more appealing and more attractive to the prospective investor as well as any who ultimately lives in it or frequently sees it. The paint doesn't turn a bad house into a good house, and the lack of paint won't generally turn a good house into a bad one. It will simply make both appear more attractive and pleasant and enhance the experience and enjoyment of both.

 

Cosmetics on a woman (or a man) work exactly the same way. On a woman without many (or any) virtuous qualities, cosmetics and clothing can make her appear more attractive than she actually is to the person who is shallow or only looking for short, temporary enjoyment. For someone looking for a long-term relationship, these will only serve to temporarily conceal the many flaws and other vices she may possess.

 

On the other hand, on a virtuous woman, skillfully selected and applied cosmetics and clothes will only serve to enhance the enjoyment one may experience with her. Her virtuous qualities may still be overlooked by shallow men seeking only passing or transitory interest in her; but such men would be less likely to be interested in her without her "make up"either. The man seeking a virtuous woman will see past her cosmetics and dress to "her bones", he will look to see whether the outward presentation matches the inner reality. And most men will experience greater enjoyment with such a virtuous woman who takes the trouble to present herself in the most attractive way she is able, just as she will experience similar enjoyment from a virtuous man who does likewise.

 

So to answer the thread's titular question... it really all depends on whether it's used to enhance virtue, or conceal vice.

This is the best analogy I've ever heard, ever for anything. It's perfectly accurate, enlightening and relatable. I agree with you 100%.

[brucethecollie]

How do you know? Wouldn't this be more of a reflection of her lack of self-knowledge in staffing her support network with people who care about her enough to NOT criticize her for such things than of her choice to not wear makeup? This is the point I keep trying to make and it's surprising to me that nobody else is willing to discuss the correlation with self-knowledge.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

I don't know, but just from my interactions with women and the comments I've heard about how they are told by friends and family that when they don't have it on they "look unwell" or "tired" or "need to perk up their face" or they hear "why don't you make some effort by putting on some make up?".

 

It is absolutely a self-knowledge issue, which is why I admit that for me, it comes down to self-esteem issues as well as a lack of courage. I wear make up less much less often than I used to and I also feel pretty good without make up whereas I used to feel more embarrassed and uncomfortable. I get comfort in knowing that other women may get some courage from my show of courage, too. 

 

For too long, too many of us do surround ourselves with people not worthy of our time and in the meantime I believe this contributes to women's perceived need for putting on make up. I've heard many women say they don't like wearing make up but feel they have to so they aren't even enjoying putting it on and wearing it. I've always enjoyed putting it on and wearing it but as I have become older, my additional reasons for doing it have become reasons I'm not proud of. Whereas when I was 5, I just thought it was cool to change my look and I didn't feel any pressure for putting it on (my mom rarely wore make up and I heard my dad always saying he loved her that way).

[Drew.]

I don't know, but just from my interactions with women and the comments I've heard about how they are told by friends and family that when they don't have it on they "look unwell" or "tired" or "need to perk up their face" or they hear "why don't you make some effort by putting on some make up?".

 

It is absolutely a self-knowledge issue, which is why I admit that for me, it comes down to self-esteem issues as well as a lack of courage. I wear make up less much less often than I used to and I also feel pretty good without make up whereas I used to feel more embarrassed and uncomfortable. I get comfort in knowing that other women may get some courage from my show of courage, too. 

 

For too long, too many of us do surround ourselves with people not worthy of our time and in the meantime I believe this contributes to women's perceived need for putting on make up. I've heard many women say they don't like wearing make up but feel they have to so they aren't even enjoying putting it on and wearing it. I've always enjoyed putting it on and wearing it but as I have become older, my additional reasons for doing it have become reasons I'm not proud of. Whereas when I was 5, I just thought it was cool to change my look and I didn't feel any pressure for putting it on (my mom rarely wore make up and I heard my dad always saying he loved her that way).

 

I know that a lot of this conversation has been about using make-up to appear more attractive to men, but I have also heard that women apply make up and jump through all of the other painful fashion-hoops partially also for other women. Bruce, when you haven't worn make up, do you get similar comments from women? What about your friends who have been told these things, have these statements come from women? I know that guys do similar things in order to establish a hierarchy and henpeck amongst themselves.

 

I was reading this book last night, and there was this really powerful quote that came to mind, "women are most responsible for the oppression of women in our culture." I don't truly know how much this might apply to our world today, but I think that it is an interesting perspective to examine.

[dsayers]

I get comfort in knowing that other women may get some courage from my show of courage, too. 

Amen Thanks for sharing the part about your parents too. Just as we talk about peaceful parenting to raise the bar for how parents treat children, I think by being more outspoken on subjects like makeup might help to raise the bar of how to treat women who don't wear it. I'm all for it. It's okay to be tired or not well sometimes. Why should women have to doll themselves up for the comfort of others?