If you want to a true test of a person's character, watch them around children

[Together-Whenever-Wherever]

99% of their heart will be revealed, and it won't even be subtle either.

 

The young, the dependent, the future generation, they are a great clarifier of virtue in the adults around us. Cherish them. Cherish the gifts they give us in knowing the people around us.

[ValueOfBrevity]

Yours is a very vague, unscientific, claim.

Many people are uneasy around children, don't like children, or are simply awkward because they don't have children.

This doesn't make them bad people.

[neeeel]

Yours is a very vague, unscientific, claim.

 

Many people are uneasy around children, don't like children, or are simply awkward because they don't have children.

 

This doesn't make them bad people.

 

While I agree that its a vague unscientific claim ( I have no idea why you have 3 downvotes for your post), I think there is a lot of truth in it. Why are people uneasy around children? Because children are autonomous, hard to control, spontaneous, full of life, based in reality. Why would adults find this threatening/challenging? Because they are set in their ways, dont like disruption, dont know how to negotiate, dont know how to have fun, have a need to control people, are dogmatic, think their beliefs are correct, are often unconnected to reality.

 

This isnt always the case, of course. but its a red flag to me when someone claims to not like children. 

[HasMat]

I am a person who would love for this to be true because I am not socially dominant but can relate to children very well and enjoy helping them.

 

My experience is that many people see the world thru a lens of continuous power dynamics of who is socially superior. They are constantly shit-testing and stress-testing as well as trying coupes and other social gambits.

 

I would prefer to have equality, and not enter into any lopsided social arrangements. Some ppl will refuse this entirely. Based on the context they may approach me as an inferior trying to flatter me or tell me I'm better than they are or how amazing I am, and it makes my skin crawl. "Normal" ppl know how to absorb these statements in a way that creates a stable power dynamic of alpha-beta, and all are made "happy". I don't, so these inferiors get confused, and try to become my alpha. I also reject that. So these ppl are an annoyance to me, and I am quite certain I annoy them too. Children, especially the younger ones, haven't developed these patterns yet. So they are great for me.

 

I think the original post has some merit to it. How we treat vulnerable ppl (who can't do us harm) shows how a person feels about NAP. If you only follow NAP to those who can use force on you (because your ethic is about physical punishment or social ostracism, not intellectual reasons), then you will resent treating children humanely.

 

As VoB says above, I think there are many reasons a person may not treat children great, which don't reflect on their character.

[dsayers]

Whose children? Under what circumstances? Not enough information.

 

I think the way a person is with animals can be a good indication too. But again, would depend on the circumstances.

 

I don't think you can make either an absolute rule.

[shirgall]

Yours is a very vague, unscientific, claim.

 

Many people are uneasy around children, don't like children, or are simply awkward because they don't have children.

 

This doesn't make them bad people.

 

A common first date technique is to go out to dinner and see how the person you are dating treats the staff. I think being around family and seeing how the date treats family, especially young children, is important empirical data. It's not just how awkward the date might be, it's how they approach interactions. There's nothing unscientific about that.

[ValueOfBrevity]

A common first date technique is to go out to dinner and see how the person you are dating treats the staff. I think being around family and seeing how the date treats family, especially young children, is important empirical data. It's not just how awkward the date might be, it's how they approach interactions. There's nothing unscientific about that.

 

Together-Whenever-Wherever (and now you as well, shirgall)  are claiming that we can determine someones morality from their interactions with children. 

 

Many people are not comfortable with children, are not socially comfortable, or do not outwardly express "their heart". 

To judge someone solely on their interactions with children is to dismiss what they actually think of , for example, personal liberties. 

 

There's nothing unscientific about that.

 

Unless you are setting up control groups of people for your date to interact with, it is still unscientific. 

[Drew.]

Together-Whenever-Wherever (and now you as well, shirgall)  are claiming that we can determine someones morality from their interactions with children. 

 

Many people are not comfortable with children, are not socially comfortable, or do not outwardly express "their heart". 

To judge someone solely on their interactions with children is to dismiss what they actually think of , for example, personal liberties. 

 

Unless you are setting up control groups of people for your date to interact with, it is still unscientific. 

 

Are you someone who is uncomfortable around kids? If I saw you (or anyone) being uncomfortable around kids I would reserve moral judgment.

 

Personally, I think that it is a good metric. It doesn't tell you 100% about a person, but it does tell you a lot. Someone who treats kids poorly is probably an asshole. Someone who is great with kids means that there might be something good about them. The people that I have seen that have been good with kids have their own personal limitations, though. Someone who is neither good with kids nor an asshole to them... well, then that raises the question of why it is so. Maybe watching these kids express themselves is anxiety provoking because they would get punished for expressing themselves. Maybe they recognize that they have power over kids and don't want to abuse it. There a number of reasons why they might act this way.

 

I would also mention that someone might use children in this way as well. Positive interactions do not necessarily mean that this individual is good with kids and all of the likely associations with that; they might just be putting on a show for someone.

[dsayers]

Together-Whenever-Wherever (and now you as well, shirgall)  are claiming that we can determine someones morality from their interactions with children. 

Neither one of them said anything about morality.

[shirgall]

Together-Whenever-Wherever (and now you as well, shirgall)  are claiming that we can determine someones morality from their interactions with children. 

 

I wouldn't go so far as saying "determine" but observation beats speculation. I also mentioned other common first date scenarios that are intended to give opportunities for observation. Determination requires tons of data well in excess of these interactions, but that's why we go on more than one date before we seal the deal.

[ValueOfBrevity]

Neither one of them said anything about morality.

Only OP said that it reveals one's heart.

 

Shirgall claimed it as empirical data, which I agree with. 

Reaching conclusions in this way, however, will be inaccurate for reasons I stated above (not being comfortable around kids, etc).

 

 

Are you someone who is uncomfortable around kids? If I saw you (or anyone) being uncomfortable around kids I would reserve moral judgment.

 

Personally, I think that it is a good metric. It doesn't tell you 100% about a person, but it does tell you a lot. Someone who treats kids poorly is probably an asshole. Someone who is great with kids means that there might be something good about them. The people that I have seen that have been good with kids have their own personal limitations, though. Someone who is neither good with kids nor an asshole to them... well, then that raises the question of why it is so. Maybe watching these kids express themselves is anxiety provoking because they would get punished for expressing themselves. Maybe they recognize that they have power over kids and don't want to abuse it. There a number of reasons why they might act this way.

 

I would also mention that someone might use children in this way as well. Positive interactions do not necessarily mean that this individual is good with kids and all of the likely associations with that; they might just be putting on a show for someone.

I'm not at all comfortable around children, but I treat them with respect and try to be honest with them.  

 

Your point about someone faking being nice to kids is interesting. You're describing a sociopath, right?

 

 

I wouldn't go so far as saying "determine" but observation beats speculation. I also mentioned other common first date scenarios that are intended to give opportunities for observation. Determination requires tons of data well in excess of these interactions, but that's why we go on more than one date before we seal the deal.

I guess this is the crux of our disagreement.

Yes, how people interact with others is empirical data about their true nature (morality, heart, w/e).

I also agree that this data is not a full determinant.  

[shirgall]

I guess this is the crux of our disagreement.

Yes, how people interact with others is empirical data about their true nature (morality, heart, w/e).

I also agree that this data is not a full determinant.  

 

I don't think we're disagreeing. Any such observations are not enough to make a determination, but they are likely important. If i see someone is awkward around children that I want a long-term offspring-producing relationship with, I'd like to talk to them about it. I'm not going to know about it unless they have impressively self-knowledge and reveal it or until such an interaction is made available. There's no way I'd marry someone without knowing a little bit about them in the company of children.

[Drew.]

I'm not at all comfortable around children, but I treat them with respect and try to be honest with them.  

 

Your point about someone faking being nice to kids is interesting. You're describing a sociopath, right?

 

 

 

I think that is what matters more. You're not "good" with kids, but you try to treat them well.

 

Not necessarily a sociopath. Maybe just your normal, run-of-the-mill traumatized individual. I think that I saw a woman doing this 'cause she was attracted to me and wanted to attract me by demonstrating how good she was with kids. Rightly or wrongly, that is how I interpreted her actions, and it was something that I didn't like. It seemed like she was using the child to suit her own end, which means that she might be willing to do it again, and to a greater degree, with her own future children.

[myclippedwings]

While I agree that its a vague unscientific claim ( I have no idea why you have 3 downvotes for your post), I think there is a lot of truth in it. Why are people uneasy around children? Because children are autonomous, hard to control, spontaneous, full of life, based in reality. Why would adults find this threatening/challenging? Because they are set in their ways, dont like disruption, dont know how to negotiate, dont know how to have fun, have a need to control people, are dogmatic, think their beliefs are correct, are often unconnected to reality.

 

This isnt always the case, of course. but its a red flag to me when someone claims to not like children. 

ran out of +1's

While I agree that its a vague unscientific claim ( I have no idea why you have 3 downvotes for your post), I think there is a lot of truth in it. Why are people uneasy around children? Because children are autonomous, hard to control, spontaneous, full of life, based in reality. Why would adults find this threatening/challenging? Because they are set in their ways, dont like disruption, dont know how to negotiate, dont know how to have fun, have a need to control people, are dogmatic, think their beliefs are correct, are often unconnected to reality.

 

This isnt always the case, of course. but its a red flag to me when someone claims to not like children. 

Also I want to mention that my abusive family members always take the opportunity to intimidate and scare their children to the point of crying and they actually find it funny that they are able to do this.

 

It's like some sort of insecure power trip

[Ninja]

I think that a person can be 'great with kids' in the sense that they may have learned how to Win the attention of children and be willing to engage them in play and also violate the NOP when dealing with children/people in other circumstances.

 

There are many cases of people being incredibly charming with children publicly and then being entirely the opposite in private.

 

If one were going to use children to bait the crazy out of someone who is essentially a stranger I think it would take enough observation time that you could likely just as well use another method that doesn't risk exposing children to potentially dangerous people.

 

The kind of person who may be abusive but doesn't appear to be so is more dangerous than a person who is blatantly not an appropriate friend/partner