Self Improvement is Masturbation.

[RichardY]

"Self Improvement is Masturbation". Tyler, Fight Club.

 

A valid statement? I think so. Any thoughts? Performing calculations faster, weight lifting, running, improving dexterity, coding, speaking a language better, refraining from vice as the classic New Years Resolution... for what. To set the Will/Ego? against nature, for others? "Give a man a why and he will bare almost any how." Equivalent?

 

 

"Self Knowledge" if you were to define it, what would it be? The phrase what you need is self knowledge... is akin to the phrase what you need is Biology, when in fact what you need is a spleen maybe more accurate. 

[Guest Gee]

"Self Improvement is Masturbation". Tyler, Fight Club.

 

A valid statement? I think so. Any thoughts?

 

Wasn't Tyler a manifestation of the void left by the guys dad leaving? Like, emblematic of the masculinity the guy had to repress?  

[Donnadogsoth]

If man is made in God's image, man's mind contains the sum of all knowledge.  The only self improvement that matters is that which leads to immortality, which for our civilised purposes means to contribute to the advancement of civilisation, which is accomplished through the obtainment of principled knowledge only humans can obtain.  Secondary improvements like being able to lift more, metabolise healthier, sum faster, etc., are worthwhile here to the degree they contribute to the primary goal of survival and human happiness.

[rosencrantz]

There are secondary effects to self improvement. Improving yourself doing sports translates into other areas of your life as well and can make you happier. Rubbing one out gives you a good feeling in the short run but has no longer lasting effect, unlike overcoming obstacles. Self knowledge can't be measured, unless it has effects in the physical world. For more, see http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/10/the_story_of_narcissus.html

[Wuzzums]

Everything that raises your sexual market value should make you feel good because just like sex the end result is a higher chance of spreading your genes.

[dsayers]

"Self Improvement is Masturbation". Tyler, Fight Club.

 

A valid statement?

In the context that both are a form of self-love, then certainly.

 

"Self Knowledge" if you were to define it, what would it be?

Calling things by their proper names, staying in touch with your emotions, identifying WHY you feel certain ways amid certain circumstances to not only process the trauma of your past, but empower yourself to be more in control of those emotions and how you act upon them.

 

Rubbing one out gives you a good feeling in the short run but has no longer lasting effect, unlike overcoming obstacles.

Your point is valid, and a useful one. However, your claim isn't entirely accurate. There are physiological and neurological benefits to regularly making use of your reproductive system, even solo.

 

Self knowledge can't be measured, unless it has effects in the physical world.

If by this you mean there aren't units nor tools, then this is correct. However, I think there are ways to test for the characteristics of self-knowledge. Things like an acceptance of one's capacity for error, curiosity, open-mindedness, being in touch with feelings, etc.

[RichardY]

There are secondary effects to self improvement. Improving yourself doing sports translates into other areas of your life as well and can make you happier. Rubbing one out gives you a good feeling in the short run but has no longer lasting effect, unlike overcoming obstacles. Self knowledge can't be measured, unless it has effects in the physical world. For more, see http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/10/the_story_of_narcissus.html

Dam.... I have seen that article before, trawling through the Internet. Never really thought that it could apply to me, but on second reading I think it does, an interesting insight. Just thinking of profile pictures people may use, I guess could show a little narcissism. IMO the classic stories seem to slice through a lot of the bullshit of modern definitions.

 

If man is made in God's image, man's mind contains the sum of all knowledge.  The only self improvement that matters is that which leads to immortality, 

The only justification I can find to be evil, though not a reason.

 

Everything that raises your sexual market value should make you feel good because just like sex the end result is a higher chance of spreading your genes.

Yeah you'd think so, people being animals.

 

Calling things by their proper names, staying in touch with your emotions, identifying WHY you feel certain ways amid certain circumstances to not only process the trauma of your past, but empower yourself to be more in control of those emotions and how you act upon them.

Seems like a fair definition, an embodiment of freewill perhaps.

 

Wasn't Tyler a manifestation of the void left by the guys dad leaving? Like, emblematic of the masculinity the guy had to repress?  

Maybe, a lot of the other characters in the film were apparently manifestation of other personalities the main character had, not just Tyler, according to a few videos on Youtube.

[DaVinci]

Rubbing one out gives you a good feeling in the short run but has no longer lasting effect, unlike overcoming obstacles

 

What if rubbing one out, and the satisfaction that follows, prevents engaging in risky behavior that could lead to STD's or unwanted pregnancies? 

[rosencrantz]

Not getting STDs or having unwanted pregnancies is not self improvement

[Donnadogsoth]

Not getting STDs or having unwanted pregnancies is not self improvement

 

Would that make masturbation equivalent to brushing your teeth?

[DaVinci]

Not getting STDs or having unwanted pregnancies is not self improvement

I suppose that depends on what we are considering self improvement. That seems subjective. I would like to improve the amount of ice cream inside myself.

[Mister Mister]

I don't know the answer to this question, but ironically refraining from masturbation improves your life.  #nowanks

[dsayers]

I suppose that depends on what we are considering self improvement.

No it doesn't. If you didn't have an STD yesterday and you don't have an STD today, you didn't take a step in any direction.

 

 

refraining from masturbation improves your life.  #nowanks

Source? Because it's well established the ways in which the opposite are true.

[Guest Gee]

Maybe, a lot of the other characters in the film were apparently manifestation of other personalities the main character had, not just Tyler, according to a few videos on Youtube.

 

I watched the film and this scene stuck with me. Tyler isn't real, so Tyler's father must be the guys father, right?

 

[DaVinci]

No it doesn't. If you didn't have an STD yesterday and you don't have an STD today, you didn't take a step in any direction.

 

 

So self improvements can only come from a self deficit? Then not engaging in risky behavior would be self maintenance? 

[dsayers]

So self improvements can only come from a self deficit? Then not engaging in risky behavior would be self maintenance? 

Your 2nd question seems to be a different question while the 1st is still in contention.

 

Can you define improvement? I'm almost certain it would involve two states that are in fact different. Thus disqualifying persistence from being described as improvement, no?

[thecurrentyear]

I watched the film and this scene stuck with me. Tyler isn't real, so Tyler's father must be the guys father, right?

 

 

 

Guys, might you consider posting behind spoiler alerts? Just a thought. I've never seen the movie, and these seem like important plot points.

[Donnadogsoth]

Your 2nd question seems to be a different question while the 1st is still in contention.

 

Can you define improvement? I'm almost certain it would involve two states that are in fact different. Thus disqualifying persistence from being described as improvement, no?

 

Improvement is that which increases human society's power to exist.  Persistence is a swimmer in a cold and choppy ocean continuing to not drown minute by minute.  Improvement is climbing aboard a boat.

I watched the film and this scene stuck with me. Tyler isn't real, so Tyler's father must be the guys father, right?

 

 

 

I don't think so.  Tyler's father is a fantasy dad appropriate to Tyler to help explain Tyler's upbringing, in a way that complements Nada's (I mean Norton's) upbringing and absent father.

[dsayers]

Improvement is that which increases human society's power to exist.  Persistence is a swimmer in a cold and choppy ocean continuing to not drown minute by minute.  Improvement is climbing aboard a boat.

No idea what you're talking about. It was put forth that masturbation could be viewed as improvement in the context of continuing to be STD free. When you compare STD free to STD free, these states are identical, and therefore ineligible for any language that denotes a difference, such as "improvement." Savvy?

 

Guys, might you consider posting behind spoiler alerts? Just a thought. I've never seen the movie, and these seem like important plot points.

The movie Fight Club is 17 years old and considered to be a classic. It is reasonable to assume that anybody who had an interest in partaking of the movie would have done so by now.

[Donnadogsoth]

No idea what you're talking about. It was put forth that masturbation could be viewed as improvement in the context of continuing to be STD free. When you compare STD free to STD free, these states are identical, and therefore ineligible for any language that denotes a difference, such as "improvement." Savvy?

 

I think you actually work at not having any idea what I'm talking about.

[dsayers]

I think you actually work at not having any idea what I'm talking about.

I believe you. I don't think I've ever seen you exhibit an acceptance for your own capacity for error. The other would be all that's left.

[ValueOfBrevity]

"Self Improvement is Masturbation". Tyler, Fight Club.

 

A valid statement? I think so. Any thoughts? Performing calculations faster, weight lifting, running, improving dexterity, coding, speaking a language better, refraining from vice as the classic New Years Resolution... for what. To set the Will/Ego? against nature, for others? "Give a man a why and he will bare almost any how." Equivalent?

 

 

"Self Knowledge" if you were to define it, what would it be? The phrase what you need is self knowledge... is akin to the phrase what you need is Biology, when in fact what you need is a spleen maybe more accurate. 

Well I can improve myself and enjoy my life more, or I can decide that I'm better off getting the shit beat out of me every night, living in filth, and letting my teeth rot out of my skull. What exactly appealed to you in the life of Tyler Durden?

[Donnadogsoth]

I believe you. I don't think I've ever seen you exhibit an acceptance for your own capacity for error. The other would be all that's left.

 

Do you accept your own capacity for error?  You seem pretty doctrinaire, nay fanatical in your beliefs.  You seem to think the heavenly NAP will solve all problems, dismissing the need for...well you know it, even if you don't get it.

[dsayers]

Do you accept your own capacity for error?  You seem pretty doctrinaire, nay fanatical in your beliefs.  You seem to think the heavenly NAP will solve all problems, dismissing the need for...well you know it, even if you don't get it.

Deflection and doubling down. This only further reveals your quest for bias confirmation. Though it is refreshing to see a theist accuse rational thought of being fanatical, belief, and heavenly.

 

I've openly stated that "belief" is of no use in determining the truth. And that "NAP" is not beneficial shorthand as 1) shorthand is only valuable if all parties agree on its meaning (which on a worldwide stage is impossible) and 2) it often leads to people losing sight of what it's shorthand for: "People do not exist in different, opposing moral categories" is an objective claim whose truth value is true. THAT has been my position. Saying 2+2=4 is true is not saying that 2+2=4 will solve all problems. Though when the BELIEF that 2+2=5 is widespread, your accusation does nothing to demonstrate how it does NOT impact the problem.

[Donnadogsoth]

Deflection and doubling down. This only further reveals your quest for bias confirmation. Though it is refreshing to see a theist accuse rational thought of being fanatical, belief, and heavenly.

 

I've openly stated that "belief" is of no use in determining the truth. And that "NAP" is not beneficial shorthand as 1) shorthand is only valuable if all parties agree on its meaning (which on a worldwide stage is impossible) and 2) it often leads to people losing sight of what it's shorthand for: "People do not exist in different, opposing moral categories" is an objective claim whose truth value is true. THAT has been my position. Saying 2+2=4 is true is not saying that 2+2=4 will solve all problems. Though when the BELIEF that 2+2=5 is widespread, your accusation does nothing to demonstrate how it does NOT impact the problem.

 

1. Why do you care about defending the truth value of truths (for >4,000 posts)?  Don't you have better things to do?

2. If saying "2+2=4," will not solve all problems, and if we wish to solve all problems, then we will have to look beyond 2+2=4, will we not?  And if that's that case, and "2+2=4" really equals "People do not exist in different, opposing moral categories," then we should look beyond that to other truths, should we not?

[DaVinci]

Your 2nd question seems to be a different question while the 1st is still in contention.

 

Can you define improvement? I'm almost certain it would involve two states that are in fact different. Thus disqualifying persistence from being described as improvement, no?

 

I'm not sure that any definition I can give wouldn't be subjective. One person would view losing fat and gaining muscle for their health an improvement. Another would view gaining weight and losing muscle for a movie role to be an improvement. It seems contingent on the goal. 

[virtue]

"Self Improvement is Masturbation". Tyler, Fight Club.

 

A valid statement? I think so. Any thoughts? Performing calculations faster, weight lifting, running, improving dexterity, coding, speaking a language better, refraining from vice as the classic New Years Resolution... for what. To set the Will/Ego? against nature, for others? "Give a man a why and he will bare almost any how." Equivalent?

 

 

"Self Knowledge" if you were to define it, what would it be? The phrase what you need is self knowledge... is akin to the phrase what you need is Biology, when in fact what you need is a spleen maybe more accurate. 

 

I'll connect the dots, some of them at least, between the first and last claim for the sake of extending the discussion.

 

It was Socrates who said, "Know Thyself" and "The unexamined life is not worth living". In other words a good life might be one of reflection (examination) and one of personal refection (studying oneself). Arguably, self improvement is the result of self knowledge - the more you know yourself the more you can improve yourself.

 

One can conclude then that "Self improvement is masturbation" and "Self knowledge is masturbation" - as self improvement is a product of self knowledge.

 

If by "is" Tyler meant identity, in the sense that A is B, then I say he's wrong.

 

If by "is" he meant an analogy, namely, masturbation and its affects on a person are equivalent to self improvement and its affects on a person, then I think there is room for an argument. I will present one.

 

The issue with self improvement is that the person in need of improvement is doing the improvement. That's very much like trying to lift yourself up by your own bootstraps. Or, trying to get a woman pregnant by masturbating when she's on the other side of the world on a webcam.

 

I personally don't buy this argument because we can improve. There was a time I could not write a single line of computer code. I now can. I managed to lift up myself by own bootstraps so to speak. Of course, one might argue that's really not self improvement, but rather skill improvement. Fair objection, no doubt.

 

Suppose that we were born perfect but life breaks us in some ways. In this case self improvement is doing that which returns an individual to their original perfect state (or as close as possible). It's restoration. It's fixing the personal dents. That which does that can be called self improvement. Of course, we don't have to be born perfect in the sense that we get X-Ray vision and all the super powers. "Perfect" can simply mean "self preservation and excellence" - any skill, belief, ability and capacity that helps you stay alive and fulfill your potential as a human being.

 

That said, I've seen some "self improvement" that fixes dents that aren't there and makes use of "tools" which are wrong for the job. Affirmations, in my opinion are one such tool. Affirmations are you trying to convince yourself of something other than what you believe - not by logic, not by reflection but the brute force of your own voice and a mirror. Which if it works, if you think about it, is great for brainwashing your self - just make sure you use the right soap.

 

Food for thought.

[dsayers]

I'm not sure that any definition I can give wouldn't be subjective. One person would view losing fat and gaining muscle for their health an improvement. Another would view gaining weight and losing muscle for a movie role to be an improvement. It seems contingent on the goal. 

I don't think what I'm communicating is being fully received. You provided examples, not a definition. In both examples, we have two states that are different. This was precisely my interpretation of the point being made before. No STD compared to no STD are not different, and therefore any behavior that leads to no STD when the person is already no STD could not be described as an improvement in the context of having no STD. I mean, right?

[DaVinci]

I don't think what I'm communicating is being fully received. You provided examples, not a definition. In both examples, we have two states that are different. This was precisely my interpretation of the point being made before. No STD compared to no STD are not different, and therefore any behavior that leads to no STD when the person is already no STD could not be described as an improvement in the context of having no STD. I mean, right?

 

Well, then aren't we right back to my earlier question? Wouldn't it be considered self maintenance? If a sick person improves into a healthy person, and a healthy person who continues to stay healthy isn't improving and they aren't declining then they must be maintaining, right? 

[dsayers]

Well, then aren't we right back to my earlier question? Wouldn't it be considered self maintenance? If a sick person improves into a healthy person, and a healthy person who continues to stay healthy isn't improving and they aren't declining then they must be maintaining, right? 

We can't move forward in the discussion until we agree where we are now. If you would kindly refresh your memory as to the flow of this discussion, you will find that you had challenged "Not getting STDs or having unwanted pregnancies is not self improvement" by saying "I suppose that depends on what we are considering self improvement. That seems subjective." I have since pointed out that it is objectively true that identical states are ineligible for language that denotes a difference. If you won't circle back to address this correction, I cannot see how progressing in the discussion would at all be productive.

[DaVinci]

We can't move forward in the discussion until we agree where we are now. If you would kindly refresh your memory as to the flow of this discussion, you will find that you had challenged "Not getting STDs or having unwanted pregnancies is not self improvement" by saying "I suppose that depends on what we are considering self improvement. That seems subjective." I have since pointed out that it is objectively true that identical states are ineligible for language that denotes a difference. If you won't circle back to address this correction, I cannot see how progressing in the discussion would at all be productive.

 

If you don't want to continue the conversation, I think that's fine. You aren't obligated to continue.  However you haven't really answered my question. Not having STD's to not having STD's would not be a change in any direction, right? Then we have to conclude that it is self maintenance, right?

 

If you want me to correct what I'm saying without wanting to show me the language used to speak correctly then how can I correct myself? 

[RichardY]

Well I can improve myself and enjoy my life more, or I can decide that I'm better off getting the shit beat out of me every night, living in filth, and letting my teeth rot out of my skull. What exactly appealed to you in the life of Tyler Durden?

Yeah the teeth rotting out my skull did not seem very appealing. Maybe the fact Tyler Durden had some sort of mission and was hard enough to see it through whatever the challenge.