Two Worlds Without God

[M.2]

"Often we are so busy thinking about how much is wrong with the Church, that we forget to consider what the World would be like without it" - G.K Chesterton

 

Full disclosure: I am a Roman Catholic, but this is not an attempt at trying to prove anything. Simply a description of what a world without God is like from a strictly personal perspective.

 

My parents both grew up in the Communist block, my mother in Hungary, my father in Mongolia. Before the communist era, Hungary had been a multicultural country for 900 years with Catholics, Protestants and Atheists , while Mongolia was also a multicultural country with Buddhists, Animists, and Atheists. Both my parents grew up atheists, then they both became protestants seperately, then both gradually converted to Catholicism in my lifetime.

 

The People's Republic of Mongolia had not seen a single Christian Missionary on its territory since the collapse of the Mongol Empire. Mongolia was the second country in history that adopted Marxism-Leninism. When the republic was declared in 1924, countless thousands of religious men and women were executed in the first five years.

 Even today, if you go on a road-trip to the Gobi desert, you can find hundreds of bullet shells scattered around in the ruins of old monasteries. I myself have picked up a pair.

After 70 years of communist rule, in 1992, a year after the fall of the Soviet Union, hundreds of protesters took to the streets of Ulaanbaatar to demand freedom from from Communism. Admittedly, unlike the Hungarians, the people of Mongolia knew not what they were asking for instead - all they knew, was that whatever they had currently was not ok. My father was among the protesters, he saw scores of aroured vehicles line up in front of the parliament,ready to open fire. He also spotted a few of his old friends among the soldiers who were tasked with dispersing the crowd, Mongolia was a tiny country with only 700 000 residents in the capital, so it was inevitable that there were friends and families among the soldiers and the protesters.

The president of Mongolia heard the demands of the people, and triggered dismantling of the Socialist System without much delay. One of his first acts as the leader of the free country was to write a letter to the Holy See, requesting missionaries asap. He was a smárt man, as he knew, with the collapse of the Communist Value System in people's lives, the vacuum that would be left in its stead would be catastrophic - he was right.

The missionaries took a while to arrive, but they were not too late. The people of Mongolia were indeed thirsty for a replacement to the old failed values, thus they were most eager to listen to anything coming from the west. Mongolia, behind Kyrghizistan, is unofficially the last modern country on the planet to host Christianity.

 

The People's Republic of Hungary officially granted freedom of religion in the constitution, but of course, that was far from reality. Every priest, who was ordained before 1985, most certainly had spent at least 3 years in prison, 1 year in solitary confinement, gone through sleep-deprivation interrogation for a month, and many were executed for conspiring against the state. Lay people who were christians were not allowed to hold public office, but were not actively persecuted to excess.

My mother became a Christian during communist rule, and became active among believers, smuggled russian bibles into the Soviet Union, where people copied the few bibles the had gotten by hand, and distributed the copies in the vast Siberian territories.

With the fall of communism, the people of Hungary needed no encouragement to reclaim their old Christian/Catholic national identity, and start rebuilding what was destroyed in the past 40 years.

 

I grew up in Mongolia in a most atheistic milieu. My brothers and I were the only christians at the schools we attended. At the very beginning of the millenium, christianity was still regarded as the culture of the pathetic, poor, stupid, unintellectual people. I was most confused by those labels as a child, since I was born in Hungary, and knew what thousand years of christianity really looked like. Christianity was the most beautiful thing in my life - the churches, the music, the nicest people in the World, and most important of all, Hope.

The sore lack of Hope, is something that westerners do not immediately notice, but it is the only thing consistently present in every part of the World that was not built on Christian foundations. The lack of Hope is something every Mongolian feels, once they return from their vacations to Europe. It is a phenomenon that I cannot explain in words, but it is something that makes me value what Christianity has given to the World.

[Anuojat]

1. I am sorry for the horrible experiences of your parents at hands of communists and your own harships as well.

 

2. As former christian i agree that christianity COMPARED TO WHAT CAME BEFORE had the element of being the first religion that acted more trough GUILT than fear of power (evil religious parents notwithstanding) and that i molded europe from its barbaric roots to more civilized society (Look up Stefans podcasts on christianity s connection to ROMAN LAW and to Greek philosifers, very important this case)

 

3. Having christanity as bulkwark againt tyranny in your case would no dout downplay its negative qualities for you yes?

 

4. Many countries that went the way of comminism or socialism were highly religious at the time so i dont see religion itself being preventative of such tyrannies rather merely a competeting form of it thats pushed OUTSIDE of physical reality in the minds of people and thus giving the appearance of being more benevolent.

 

5. When people lose faith they do not all become socialists or nihilists that we know for sure, so question i pose to you is... why do you think or feel based on your experiences that so many turned to comunism and socialism after lessenign of cristianity? What do you think of the moral power vacuum? (since morality is the greatest power of all i find)

[M.2]

1. Hi, Anoujat.

2. Yes, I have watched Mr.Molyneux's videos on atheism and christianity, and will continue to watch them in the future for the arguments.

3. This thread was not intended to be about the negatives of christianity, as I have laid that down in the beginning. We can have a discussion about the negatives about christianity, but overall, yes, I would say christianity is worth having despite all its flaws.

4. Sure, we can talk about catholic communism, like they had in Cuba, Vietnam or Angola, but I do not wish to on this thread. This is strictly about Hungary and Mongolia.

5. I do not believe that my home countries turned to communism willingly, at least Hungary didn't, and Mongolia did mostly out of geopolitical necessity. Sure, we could have a fact fight about the post-communist countries or neo-atheist countries in the west like Estonia, Sweden, Japan, and the correlations and implications that come with losing religion. For starters, these countries have a staggering level of population loss and these countries occupy the top of the list on suicide rates. http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/suicide/by-country/

[Donnadogsoth]

Religious Affiliation, Atheism and Suicide

[Donnadogsoth]

Hope

by Friedrich Schiller

translated by William F. Wertz

 

All people discuss it and dream on end

Of better days that are coming,

After a golden and prosperous end

They are seen chasing and running

The world grows old and grows young in turn,

Yet doth man for betterment hope eterne.

 

’Tis hope delivers him into life,

Round the frolicsome boy doth it flutter,

The youth is lured by its magic rife,

It won’t be interred with the elder;

Though he ends in the coffin his weary lope,

Yet upon that coffin he plants—his hope.

 

It is no empty, fawning deceit,

Begot in the brain of a jester,

Proclaimed aloud in the heart it is:

We are born for that which is better!

And what the innermost voice conveys,

The hoping spirit ne’er that betrays.