Are children of bad families more likely to forego having children themselves?

[Donnadogsoth]

Anyone?

[aviet]

If you count Democrat voters among bad families:

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/48765-on-a-long-enough-timeline-the-survival-rate-of-democrats-drops-to-zero/

 

Study from India, though at a glance I can't see what the conclusion is:

http://www.academia.edu/7959171/Domestic_violence_and_its_impact_on_fertility_behavior_Evidence_from_Nationally_Representative_Household_Survey_Data_in_India

Uzbekistan, ditto:

http://paa2007.princeton.edu/papers/71957

Cameroon:

"Regardless of a woman’s religious affiliation, the relation between number of children and first marital physical violence was statistically significant (P≤0.01; log-rank test). For all four religious categories considered here, data in Fig. 2.2 show that women who have 1–4 children were significantly more likely to experience physical violence sooner than other women. More than 75 % of women with 1–4 children experienced physical violence within the 10 years of marriage among Catholics and Protestants, and within 12 years of marriage for Muslims. Here again, physical violence was significantly lower among women who had no children"

 

My guess is that families where there is physical and/or emotional violence would have more children. There are probably a lot of reasons, but one that comes to mind is that these people are probably closer to base human drives, as opposed to being driven by reason and evidence., and base human drives include making children.

[Donnadogsoth]

If you count Democrat voters among bad families:

 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/48765-on-a-long-enough-timeline-the-survival-rate-of-democrats-drops-to-zero/

 

Study from India, though at a glance I can't see what the conclusion is:

 

http://www.academia.edu/7959171/Domestic_violence_and_its_impact_on_fertility_behavior_Evidence_from_Nationally_Representative_Household_Survey_Data_in_India

 

Uzbekistan, ditto:

 

http://paa2007.princeton.edu/papers/71957

 

Cameroon:

 

"Regardless of a woman’s religious affiliation, the relation between number of children and first marital physical violence was statistically significant (P≤0.01; log-rank test). For all four religious categories considered here, data in Fig. 2.2 show that women who have 1–4 children were significantly more likely to experience physical violence sooner than other women. More than 75 % of women with 1–4 children experienced physical violence within the 10 years of marriage among Catholics and Protestants, and within 12 years of marriage for Muslims. Here again, physical violence was significantly lower among women who had no children"

 

My guess is that families where there is physical and/or emotional violence would have more children. There are probably a lot of reasons, but one that comes to mind is that these people are probably closer to base human drives, as opposed to being driven by reason and evidence., and base human drives include making children.

 

Interesting.  Could one of the base human drives be pride?  A man, even an absent father with twenty children by twenty different women, might still feel pride at his "accomplishments".

[Drew.]

Interesting.  Could one of the base human drives be pride?  A man, even an absent father with twenty children by twenty different women, might still feel pride at his "accomplishments".

 

I would definitely say that pride is a psychological need. I've found myself pushing through hardship in an attempt to do something that I could feel proud about so that I could feel good about myself. In that regard, I think that a lot of other people are similar, by seeking that promotion, that media collection, that nice car, that perfect family, that bank number, etc.

 

Anecdotally, one friend that I had was someone who as very anti-children, and his parents were quite verbally abusive to him. I assume physically too, as there is a correlation between people being overweight and obese with physical violence and that entire family is fat. All the signs point to him having a rough childhood.

[Donnadogsoth]

I would definitely say that pride is a psychological need. I've found myself pushing through hardship in an attempt to do something that I could feel proud about so that I could feel good about myself. In that regard, I think that a lot of other people are similar, by seeking that promotion, that media collection, that nice car, that perfect family, that bank number, etc.

 

Anecdotally, one friend that I had was someone who as very anti-children, and his parents were quite verbally abusive to him. I assume physically too, as there is a correlation between people being overweight and obese with physical violence and that entire family is fat. All the signs point to him having a rough childhood.

 

What do you suppose the ingredient is that tips a person with a bad upbringing towards afertility?  Intelligence, perhaps?

[Drew.]

What do you suppose the ingredient is that tips a person with a bad upbringing towards afertility?  Intelligence, perhaps?

 

Yeah, I don't know. I do not think that there is a single factor, but a combination of factors that would contribute to something like that. Some people don't want to have children because they do not want to pay the prices and have the responsibility that is required to raise children right. Some people don't want to have children because they hate children. Some are anti-natal.

 

Someone with a bad upbringing? Well, it could be that they feel a lack and do not want to focus their life on someone else. It could be that they remember what marriage is like from their parents and universalize it (which would be true for them and they would likely recreate without therapeutic intervention, whether that is self-induced or with a counselor). It could also be empathy, where they know that they will be a shitty parent and don't want to put a child through that. Based on what I have offered, it seems like intelligence would contribute to it.

[Rventurelli]

Anyone?

In my personal experience (have no scientific data on this) it is absolutely the opposite. Children of chaotic families tend to want more than anyone else to want to have kids and be good parents. They want to have the functional family that they did not have growing up. My childhood and teenage years was terrible my score in the ACE test is seven. All friends and lovers I had that ever opened up to me (with two exceptions only) and told me about their traumatic experiences with family, always said that when it was their time to be parents they would wish to do x, y and z different.

 

Interesting.  Could one of the base human drives be pride?  A man, even an absent father with twenty children by twenty different women, might still feel pride at his "accomplishments".

From a genetic standpoint the man that has twenty children by twenty different women is an extremely successful individual who will assure he keeps on living throughout the next generation. It is an "r" strategy that he has reason to feel pride of. Remember, it is not because all or almost all of us in this forum are "K"s that the population as a whole values being "K" as well.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

I think it is very IQ and culture dependent.

 

In the West, among Whites in particular?

Personal experience says "YES". Until recently I didn't want to have children, knowing they'd be brought up into a pretty terrible world. 

 

Depression and similar problems will naturally kick in the shin reproductive drives.

 

However in a rapey, non-consent culture I don't think there is much correlation between good childhood and big families, in fact I think those wiht better childhoods in bad societies tend to breed less (if at all) because they wouldn't want to bring life into a war zone.

 

However, again, this all assumes the ones with good/bad childhoods are also intelligent. Intelligence is a huge driver in breeding rates as intelligent people tend not to breed when they're stressed, depressed, or anticipating disaster while dumb people seem to breed consistently regardless of environment.

[S1988]

That would depend on the individual. There are those who come from dysfunctional families, but don't see their families as dysfunctional. Therefore, they continue to pass on their genes while continuing the abusive cycle. My family members fit this example.

 

Then, there are others who acknowledge their family members were (and still are) abusive, and make a conscious decision to end the cycle by not having kids. That example describes me. On the other hand, some people from healthy families have kids, and other people from healthy families that don't.

[Jsbrads]

I would say anger, sadness and other emotions.

An intelligent person would just learn how to be a good parent, maybe even wait into their twenties.

[Rventurelli]

That would depend on the individual. There are those who come from dysfunctional families, but don't see their families as dysfunctional. Therefore, they continue to pass on their genes while continuing the abusive cycle. My family members fit this example.

 

Then, there are others who acknowledge their family members were (and still are) abusive, and make a conscious decision to end the cycle by not having kids. That example describes me. On the other hand, some people from healthy families have kids, and other people from healthy families that don't.

Many people from dysfunctional families want to have their own family and be different than their parents. I know many people who had very dysfunctional families and either wish to correct that by being good parents or are themselves already good parents.

[S1988]

Many people from dysfunctional families want to have their own family and be different than their parents. I know many people who had very dysfunctional families and either wish to correct that by being good parents or are themselves already good parents.

 

You're right. I forgot to mention that. I guess, basically, people should do what's best for them. If there are people from dysfunctional families who feel they can do better than their parents, then I highly salute them. However, there are those such as yours truly who have factors in their lives that make it impossible to be a good parent, and it's better that I realize this now than when it's too late to not have a child.

[Rventurelli]

You're right. I forgot to mention that. I guess, basically, people should do what's best for them. If there are people from dysfunctional families who feel they can do better than their parents, then I highly salute them. However, there are those such as yours truly who have factors in their lives that make it impossible to be a good parent, and it's better that I realize this now than when it's too late to not have a child.

As for myself, my childhood adversity score is of 7, and ever since like 12 or so, I always had the big desire to be a good husband and father. My friends always tended to be older and I always tended to bond well with much older people, often becoming almost a son for the fathers of my friends. It is a quite strange situation to be honest. Every time an older gentleman calls me "son" I feel extremely emotional. Also, every time I see a functional and loving family I get extremely happy inside. It is such a difficult sensation to explain. It gets me very upset to see people with good parents treating them like crap, which I see way too often, unfortunately.

[S1988]

Rventurelli, if those people are treating their parents badly, then that means there must have been some dysfunction going on. I'm not saying this to excuse them, but disrespectful offspring don't come from healthy families. Maybe there was something that wasn't acknowledged when they were younger, and they're getting revenge. I know if I did something to cause anger in my hypothetical children, I'd do what it takes to get to the bottom of the problem rather than disregarding it. If you're planning to be a good father, you have to take some responsibility for how they turn out: both the good and the bad parts. After all, no one asks to exist. I don't mean this as an attack, but it comes off as hypocritical to condemn your parents, then attack your children for criticizing you. I bet many people on this forum heard the "I've sacrificed everything for you, and all you do is whine, whine, whine!" line from their parents (including you), and it's not good to think that you would parent better, and then not be much different than how you were raised.

[neeeel]

I agree. I don't see how it is possible for children of good parents to treat them like crap. Of course there are always going to be conflicts, and I suppose its theoretically possible to have some genetic flaw(for want of a better word) that causes someone to act impulsively or uncaring, but in general, if the kids are acting horribly it's because the parents have been horrible

[Jsbrads]

I think the most common, bad children of "good" parents, are spoiled. Their parents failed to set enough boundaries.

[Ianua]

Looking back at my life, I should not have had a child. I have an ACE of 9.  During my growing up years, I had two thoughts either the resolve to not have a child or to not do the things my mother (and previous generations had done).  I have a fairly high IQ.  I resolved also never to blame myself for being in a physically abusive relationship, if I happened to get into one and also to never allow my daughter to be sexually abused.  I was confident that my intelligence would protect me and my offspring from the failings of my upbringing. 

My reasons for ultimately having a child?  My husband and mother wanted one and since I was failing at anything else I was doing (school, job) I figured I could at least produce a child. Women in my family are built for it. At the time I thought that I could protect my child from any potential abuse my mother might inflict and I had confidence in my ability not to abuse my child in the same manner as I had been.  I did keep my mother from ever hitting Misty (my mother and daughter are two peas in a pod).  I did manage never to physically abuse my daughter, but I was not suited for raising a child and she suffered from my inability to follow thru. We will go to the park today after lunch, but when after lunch comes I am too depressed, tired, anxious insert other excuse to take her, rinse and repeat.  She never had chores or bedtimes or punishments.  I never set limits, morals, or boundaries. I was trying to give her the perfect upbringing, no anger or brutality.  What I gave instead was neglect, not physical but neglect all the same. She adopted my mother's temperament, having no guidance from me.  She was the child my mother always wanted, which I could never achieve.  I assume they are happy in their relationship.  I don't have contact with either one.

We have no contact, by her choice and I don't resent it.  She is not my property and I am not her responsibility.

[mvorbrodt]

my childhood is for the most part a smoking crater of dysfunction (ACE=5); i am a father of 2 and happily married, peaceful parenting and all

[Jsbrads]

Jordan Peterson mentioned in his lecture that most abused children grow up and never want to visit the same on their children.

The only problems that arise with that laudable goal are a lack of parenting skills and education. The wider US culture does have some good limits on parents programmed in. And some bad ones still unfortunately. 

[lorry]

Yes. But it depends very much upon the child and the upbringing. The bad has to be caused by something. Whilst we (correctly) identify the parents as bad, some children will project the bad of the parents onto existence as such, ie, the world is a bad place. There is no reason not to think a child who does not project the bad onto the world does not project the bad onto the state of childhood, ie, children are bad (but existence, as such, is just existence). If then the child grows up, and does not correct this misconcepton, there is reason to believe they would avoid having children like the plague (because children, as such, are bad).