Control: Fallacy or reality?

[AjaxTheGiant]

Hi all, I am posting here today in an attempt to discuss some ideas that have been on my mind for some time, firstly, I will begin with a thought/experience that occurred several days ago that I jotted down in one of my notepads:

 

I feel the haze pass over my mind (?) - And  am met again with familiar thoughts - Am I in control of my thoughts and rational processes? or as Nietzsche puts it are all my apparent 'emotional free' rationalizations [and that of all other material aspects that constitute my being] simply the work of 'seed' emotions, subconscious drivers that I have no control over. It is difficult to come to a conclusion, although I feel as if one can come to be in control through the pursuit of self knowledge and understanding, it does not allude me that the capacities responsible deducing this conclusion may, in fact be the controlling force. This also leads me to think about the underlying implications that this may have on 'human nature', determinism and human consciousness.     

 

'To our strongest drive, the tyrant in us, not only our reason but also our conscience submits' - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

I may make further posts late about further thoughts on the matter, however, for now I would just like have this looked over with fresh eyes to see if anyone has a different perspective to what I may have thought, thanks for taking the time to read this - Ajax

   

[Pod]

I'm confused.  Can you come up with a simple real world example?

[Drew.]

Why is the answer to the question important to you? This rings of free will versus determinism to me, but I might be missing something here.

[RichardY]

Hi all, I am posting here today in an attempt to discuss some ideas that have been on my mind for some time, firstly, I will begin with a thought/experience that occurred several days ago that I jotted down in one of my notepads:

 

I feel the haze pass over my mind (?) - And  am met again with familiar thoughts - Am I in control of my thoughts and rational processes? or as Nietzsche puts it are all my apparent 'emotional free' rationalizations [and that of all other material aspects that constitute my being] simply the work of 'seed' emotions, subconscious drivers that I have no control over. It is difficult to come to a conclusion, although I feel as if one can come to be in control through the pursuit of self knowledge and understanding, it does not allude me that the capacities responsible deducing this conclusion may, in fact be the controlling force. This also leads me to think about the underlying implications that this may have on 'human nature', determinism and human consciousness.     

 

'To our strongest drive, the tyrant in us, not only our reason but also our conscience submits' - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

I may make further posts late about further thoughts on the matter, however, for now I would just like have this looked over with fresh eyes to see if anyone has a different perspective to what I may have thought, thanks for taking the time to read this - Ajax

I would say that the people you are around or listen to on a regular basis do have a profound influence on your "Will" or Mind. Kind of distorting to what you might perceive as your own Freewill. I think one of the most important choices a person makes is who to spend their time with and the acceptance that relationships, at least when a person is older can be entirely voluntary. I mostly listen to Stefan on youtube, but recently listening to podcasts even the forum seems to have some similar trains of thought. Manifested on Youtube a kind of "World Spirit".

 

A thought of my "own" from the film Dr Strangelove, where an airforce general has gone insane keeps talking about "Purity of Essence"(Freewill?) Kind of makes me think of the recent US election, where even though Hilary was clearly Evil(or Damaged Goods), a part of me was hoping that Stefan would stick to "Purity" or "Footrubs" for Donald Trump even though that would be clearly perverse imo.

 

Fluoridation Mandrake, Childrens Ice cream and never will you see a commie drink tap water and not without good reason. Dr Strangelove (bits of speech)

[A4E]

Question to OP: Does our solar system have control over itself?

[villagewisdom]

Question to OP: Does our solar system have control over itself?

 

Perhaps it does. If it does, "itself" would likely be so far above us in knowledge of the rest of the universe as to render us equivalent to ants in awareness. And if it does, will it give a rat's ass about how its choices affect you or just expect you to go along for the ride with its superior intellect?  

 

And to the OP, everyone will have a different perspective. How could they not? Me thinks you spend too much time thinking about creation and not enough time doing the creation. If you want to choose, then choose. If you think you have no choice, then do not choose.  It's your choice -- but I digress. 

[sicrobb0]

maybe I'm misunderstanding the question you asked, but in a real barney terminology. you are asking whether we are in control of our own conscience thoughts or is other things such as god, our peers, our sub conscience, or other stimuli. or even does any of these things control your human mind. I hope that's what you are asking, but ill answer the question this way.

I believe our conscience thoughts are made by 3 categories of relevance to the control of that thought.

1) being our life experience and social interactions. (I include all outside stimuli in this)

2) being our own IQ and Self Knowledge ( I include the subconscious in the this category, it deals with all things inside)

3) being from our spiritual self, or worldly self (I include god/freewill/other effects of spirit in this category)

These categories I say the basis for all thoughts and reasoning. are we in control of these or they in control of us? that to me isn't the correct question. honestly, the question should only be, if these things make up our thoughts how can we better control these inputs/outputs?

My thoughts on freewill or determination is honestly, whatever makes you sleep better at night. I can't put forth evidence of either and so therefore I can't put forth a true answer that won't negate my own bias.

[Boss]

Well, are you going to continue reading what I am going to say? 

 

 

 

 

yes, so you have control.

[RichardY]

 

 

 

 

Lot of subtle influences in the film.

 

Well, are you going to continue reading what I am going to say? 

 

 

 

 

yes, so you have control.

Sounds like a preversion. (Inspired joke from the Movie Dr Strangelove, "You'll have to answer to the Coca-Cola company")

 

 

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Psychologically, though I wonder how the ideas of control, freewill, reality and illusion contrast. Maybe there is some out side influence, but a person has no way of knowing without some empirical reality. To say I accept I have freewill, is different from saying I accept I have control. Though perhaps it is better to say I have full control, the ideas of optimism and pessimism also come to mind. Regardless of somehow recognising everything some-kind of spiritual enlightenment, what kind of psychological make up would help to make a person the most resilient. 

[EclecticIdealist]

In the end, it doesn't matter. If you have no control, you can't change things to obtain control, you can't even choose to hope that things will change. You either will or you won't according to the fte determinism has in store.

 

If you do, you always do, it's simply a matter of degree... how much freedom or liberty you have and the power or ability to act within that liberty. You can seek to maximize your power and liberty, but whether such was your free-will choice, or simply the culmination of a series of events that led you inexorably to your own conversation with the Merovingian in his restaurant and "The Architect of The Matrix" is ultimately a definitively unanswerable question.

 

I believe the whole of the physical universe of which each of us is a part is empirically deterministic, which suggests that we are too, and power and control are merely illusions which we are programmed by deterministic fate to respond to, including a programmed struggle against deterministic fate. We make our fate and it makes us.

[AjaxTheGiant]

Thanks for all the responses, I have read over them all and I will clarify my points for those whom had questions.

 

@Pod – A real example may be for example, someone feels subconsciously weak, so their personality overcompensates for that perceived weakness and would comfort itself with control over others.

 

@Drew Davis – The answer itself is important to me because I am of the belief that self-knowledge is the key to enlightenment, I’m not so much concerned with the repercussions of the outcomes either way, more in determining an actual answer – which it is difficult to conclude.

 

@A4E – You pose an interesting question, which reminds me of a vision I had during a meditation once, I may privately message you to discuss it further.

 

@villagewidsom – I have to disagree with you there mate, it would be my choice to perceive if I had control or not but that perception would have absolutely no bearing on that reality – I would simply be deluding myself. I fail to understand what this has to do with creation, however, I should add I do think that once can become in control, but the constant nipping that I would be relying on those senses in order to divine my answer makes me wonder.

 

@sicrobb0 – I was speaking in refence to everything that forms out consciousness, I agree with your categories of relevance to human thought, although, I see them more as levels than categories.  

 

@RichardY – It’s difficult to really know, I sometimes feel as if the more I discover, both about the internal and external world, the more I begin to understand that they are so much complex and vast than I could have ever imagined.

 

@EclecticIdealist – Interesting point that you bring up, going along those lines, wouldn’t it be possible that both every possibility and none of them could be occurring at the same time?

 

Thank you all again for taking the time to post, sorry it took me so long to reply I have been busy the last few weeks, I will be hoping to get on the forums a lot more and get to know you all better, if anyone has further questions I will reply to them asap.

 

Ajax.