Is MGTOW an unsustainable lifestyle?

[CygniAustralis]

I haven't had a chance to read all of the responses to this post, so maybe I'm missing some important points, but I thought I'd just throw my 2 cents in.

You don't need a spouse to keep a clean house, or to take care of your non-financial needs, but then again a wife is much more than a housekeeper. She is meant to provide support, emotional nourishment, and physical intimacy as well. So while I would say that the MGTOW lifestyle is somewhat sustainable (there will always be men who forego marriage/relationships with women), it's probably not going to meet all of your needs. 

With that being said, I can understand how enticing the MGTOW lifestyle may be to a lot of men out there. There aren't a lot of high quality women—and I'm not even touching on appearance. I mean in terms of manners, behavior, treatment of others and overall attitude. My husband and I are the only couple in our massive circle of acquaintances that is married, in a stable monogamous relationship and having a child within marriage. With all the loving patience we can muster, we observe and oftentimes endure (in the case of my husband's coworkers) inappropriate, slutty and childish behavior from women who can't seem to stop getting pregnant out of wedlock, engage in abusive behavior towards their male "partners", drink/smoke excessively, flirt shamelessly with countless men and overall act brutish and uncivilized. I do not know ANY WOMAN in my town that I would even slightly consider to be a good choice for a partner, and I feel bad for a lot of the hard-working young men in my community who sometimes work 2-3 jobs and become punching bags for crazy women they feel roped into dating (the dating pool here is shallow, I'll tell you that). 

There ARE good women out there, but they're becoming increasingly difficult to find. Feminism and leftism has so greatly penetrated every facet of our society that finding a woman who has not been indoctrinated into it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. You want a woman of virtue and value? Good luck. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try your hardest to find that perfect woman, but it's a difficult quest and I sympathize. My own gender makes me look bad, and that greatly frustrates me. 

This is coming from a conservative Christian wife. I don't consider myself attractive, and I'm overweight (though I've lost 30+ pounds in pregnancy) but I would gladly keep the body I'm in if it meant avoiding turning into a feminist or the like. 

[barn]

On 06/24/2018 at 12:55 AM, J.L.W said:

On 06/23/2018 at 11:47 PM, barn said:

Don't get me wrong but I don't see a whole lot of social shaming of single mothers or sl&ts in general to pick a few 'usual suspects'.... It seems to me, their social shaming is very lopsided and usually directed at men, or men, sometimes even men, when men isn't around then they frequently shame men. (I'm being obviously cheeky a bit, but if you laughed you know coz it's true. )

Ha ha, that's messed up. Who would want to spend time with such people?

Appeasers? Men who think they can get a better chance at woo-ing women by being more agreeable than what truth from reason & evidence commands? A great majority of the West?... Because if they didn't, there'd be no fertile ground for 3rd wave feminism (imo), disproportionately harsher sentencing for men in the family court system... etc.

On 06/24/2018 at 12:55 AM, J.L.W said:

There were a LOT of metaphors in DS9.

Yes. There were/are. My proposed metaphor btw connects to what I have just said... or the direction at least I'm seeing society running towards 'Bolt-style'.

[barn]

Hi @CygniAustralis

You make a lot of good points. Out of curiosity, what did you think about my response to you in your " Having issues with in-laws " thread ?

 

-> Hi voter. Thanks for the attention.

Edited June 25, 2018 by barn
E:dit

[ShutterLake]

My thoughts on MGTOW:

For me, MGTOW is the right-wing equivalent of a man's safe space. Quit being a baby and try to become a quality mate (blanket statement not directed at any one person here)... And don't say you already are, because I really doubt it as there is ALWAYS room for improvement. Also running from your problems is a trait of low-quality mates... It's beta. So by definition, being an MGTOW guy, you are a low-quality mate who doesn't deal with their issues. Maybe that is why you only attract low-quality women to the point you want to eject from the game altogether. The quality women could detect you are MGTOW before you even went your own way.

Finding quality is hard... and it should be, that's what makes quality...

 

So is it sustainable? No, I don't think so.

 

Again, none of these statements are being directed to any individual.

[barn]

14 minutes ago, ShutterLake said:

For me, MGTOW is the right-wing equivalent of a man's safe space. Quit being a baby and try to become a quality mate (blanket statement not directed at any one person here)... And don't say you already are, because I really doubt it as there is ALWAYS room for improvement. Also running from your problems is a trait of low-quality mates... It's beta. So by definition, being an MGTOW guy, you are a low-quality mate who doesn't deal with their issues. Maybe that is why you only attract low-quality women to the point you want to eject from the game altogether. The quality women could detect you are MGTOW before you even went your own way.

Finding quality is hard... and it should be, that's what makes quality...

 

Again, none of these statements are being directed to any individual. 

Appreciate the tentativeness, doesn't apply to me. My situation is not compatible with MGTOW.

Nor do I think it is reasonable to not process 'the luggage', the history that led up to anyone arriving at the 'bus-stop' of MGTOW.

[J.L.W]

On an earlier point. I do think single mothers in general are DEFINITELY socially shamed. This is their experience very explicitly and a big motivation for not getting pregnant too young.

Although whether this is uniquely down to women shaming them is not clear. It is probably male movements that have lead to this. But I have seen women be unpleasant with other women, deservedly, where men were tied down by red tape and not really able to respond as they naturally would. 

[J.L.W]

I don't agree with the assumption that MGTOW is this synthetic thing. It seems natural that so long as guys have some sort of sense of self worth, that they will not date girls that are too unpleasant, if girls are brainwashed and nasty enough some guys will tune out and there are a lot of young guys who have never heard of MGTOW that play computer games and don't think of women. I used to question these guys and found they had genuinely little interest in girls.

So that's why I think it is an immune system response. The people that put a label on and say "I am MGTOW" are actually a miniscule part of the MGTOW movement.

[barn]

32 minutes ago, J.L.W said:

I do think single mothers in general are DEFINITELY socially shamed. This is their experience very explicitly and a big motivation for not getting pregnant too young. 

Although whether this is uniquely down to women shaming them is not clear. It is probably male movements that have lead to this. But I have seen women be unpleasant with other women, deservedly, where men were tied down by red tape and not really able to respond as they naturally would.  

Interesting idea, how do you know that it's true? (Talking about this subject, I would agree that social austerity exists, as do exceptions.)

Furthermore, would you agree that single motherhood is greatly incentivised in Europe now-a-days and that there's been a huge uptick in numbers, measurable and quantifiable?

 

[J.L.W]

15 minutes ago, barn said:

Interesting idea, how do you know that it's true. (Talking about this subject, I would agree that social austerity exists, as do exceptions.)

Furthermore, would you agree that single motherhood is greatly incentivised in Europe now-a-days and that there's been a huge uptick in numbers, measurable and quantifiable?

 

There is unfortunately a limit to how much I will go into personal experience on the first line there. Some areas that I am interested in are heavily female dominated and keyed to discussing personal perspectives and I hear their experiences.

I do agree single motherhood is incentivised with the welfare state. If I didn't believe that what would I be doing here?

[barn]

32 minutes ago, J.L.W said:

There is unfortunately a limit to how much I will go into personal experience on the first line there. Some areas that I am interested in are heavily female dominated and keyed to discussing personal perspectives and I hear their experiences.

I do agree single motherhood is incentivised with the welfare state due to the leftist preference of no consequences for female behaviours no matter how bad. if I didn't believe that what would I be doing here?

" What you incentivise, grows "

 

Oh, absolutely... Yes, of course you must be here for good reasons, I wasn't trying to get you on anything.

I was wondering if you were looking at facts, data, other than personal experiences (i. e - anecdotes), subjective assertions which I'm perfectly fine with if it's mentioned. It's just I was curious if you knew something I haven't heard/noticed/considered.

 

From what I saw here (2007-2017, 2017):

° in 2017, 29.6% of EU-28 with child, for comparison, in Turkey (51.9%)... not to mention fertility.

° The most common household type in the EU-28 in 2017 was a single person living alone (33.6 %)

°  'couple without children', accounting for 24.9 %

° 'couple with children', 20.0 %

 

Looking at developments since 2007:

° EU-28 households with children decreased by more than 2 percentage points (from 31.9 % in 2007 to 29.6 % in 2017)

° couples with children, less frequent (from 21.2 % in 2007 to 20.0 % in 2017)

° single adults with children, however, increased (from 4.1 % in 2007 to 4.3 % in 2017)

° Over the same period, the proportion of couples without children and the proportion of single adults without children rose from 24.1 % to 24.9 % and from 29.5 % to 33.6 % respectively.

 

and this, from here:

° "Some 16 percent of children live in single-mother homes (ranging from 5.3 percent in Greece to 28.1 percent in the UK) and 2.1 percent live in single-father homes (ranging from 0.7 percent in Cyprus to 15.1 percent in Belgium)."

[AnonLifeForm]

> making your own food everyday, keeping your house clean, etc.

did you actually try doing everything yourself?

the efficiency gained from living with someone is only the sharing of capital, rent, internet, etc

All the stuff you quoted is a piece of cake and only takes a minor part of the day.

[drgonzo1969]

Ah, MGTOW... and my first post here.

I haven't read enough into MGTOW to understand their position entirely. I may fall into the category however.

There's the tendency to believe MGTOW types are simply people that can't get laid. Maybe this is because many can't understand why a man might refuse and be hesitant about the consequences of getting involved with a woman.

My being MGTOW/similar probably stems from my parents divorce. It was a particularly nasty one (I know all divorces generally are..). So, issues relating to my mother and her desire and ability to take advantage of the state which allows her to use the law as a weapon of spite. 

The number of people I've come across that have been brought up under similar circumstances is rather scary. I think MGTOW may be a reaction to divorce laws (and laws in general) which unfairly punish men. These laws, at least where I live, presume the man is guilty before being proven innocent (and proving such is expensive). This is justified as "erring on the side of caution". The problem with this is that... when you give one group of people an advantage, they'll make the most of it. I'm sure you've heard it all before... the wife that claims abuse in order to get 100% custody and therefore a greater percentage of the assets. 

I've had many relationships that ended up pretty badly. I've been removed from my home by police after being prevented from leaving a room, then being hit and yelled at (being male, I just had to take it). She even admitted to the police that this is what she had done and I was still removed. Due to mentioning "many relationships", I have to then look at myself and work out what it is that I might be doing to aggravate the situation.

I believe my problem is that I don't compromise on who I am and what I want. I think to a certain extent, women (and men) try to shape their partners into something contrary to their true nature. People fall in love with an idealized version of the person based perhaps off of what they desire according to the movies and dramas they've seen. It's almost as if people are living their lives according to a Hollywood script. They want the drama.

So, I'll be eating my dinner when all of a sudden my partner will come in and be "outraged" over something relatively trivial. What I'm meant to then do is play the part of someone who is upset, overly defensive perhaps... I dunno. I'm meant to react emotionally.. support the drama. When I respond rationally and keep my emotions out of it, I believe what happens is that I cause offense for not being more disturbed or enraged.

My former profession was as a "bouncer", so I know that you've got to keep your cool. If you let your emotions slide and respond with anger things escalate. I believe with the women I've known they require that anger in order to feel loved. If they can't rouse you to anger, what power do they have over you? It's similar when sex is used as a bargaining tool. Some/perhaps many men will fall for this. With me, I'll just say "I've always got porn". I have the tendency to automatically swing the other way whenever being given any kind of ultimatum.  This infuriates people.. which is why I end up having the police called on me. I think women know they have that ace up their sleeves. Again, no proof required. All they need to say is that they have a fear of what "might" happen. 

So, knowing the risks and having experienced injustice.... I have a fear of getting the wrong woman pregnant. I have a fear of getting emotionally attached to my children only to have them ripped away from me due to some one-sided law. I feel that the family unit has been compromised/attacked by government. It is not so much women that are at fault, but society at large. This isn't a world I want to bring children up in. I feel strongly that the way in which governments are gathering debt... the fiat money system has to at some stage crash. I don't want to be the guy from the movie "The Road", and as much as it may sound silly, I believe if I don't listen to my instincts Murphy's Law will come down hard on me.

If I don't want to bring children into this world, there's even less point in a relationship. I understand that in making that decision it's the end of the line for my genes and I'm fine with that.

As for the idea that MGTOW is financially unsustainable... that doesn't make sense to me. Being single I save far more. 

It's hard to describe the "why?". Best I can say, it's instinctual.

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[barn]

Hi @drgonzo1969

Welcome to the board and posting!

Barnsley

[MahtiSonni]

On 1/5/2017 at 3:41 AM, DaVinci said:

Does anyone else have some experience in this realm, or some thoughts on if MGTOW is something that actually works in the long term?

Depends on whether one thinks voluntary extinction "works" in the long term.

I don't.