How do you get someone interested in SK?

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

My husband has zero interest in self knowledge. His lack of interest is, in my opinion, hurting our marriage and preventing us from fixing existing issues. He seems to think SK is great for me, but doesn't see the need for it himself. How can I get him interested? And if that's not possible, what hope is there for our relationship going forward? Do any of you have successful relationships with partners who are not at all interested in SK?

[Drew.]

I wish I knew. I could get my parents and all of my childhood friends to journal and do therapy, and then we could reconnect with each other and have wonderful lives. Fundamentally, only if someone is really interested and passionate in this will they pursue it. That said, he might find his own spark and drive to go through the process, but it's fundamentally not something you can control. My friend told me about journaling and I found it useful, but never really got around to it until I was super miserable when I was 19 after having a week where I housesat at the neighbors. I felt so great then, and it was so jarring returning to the family home. Something was wrong, and I needed to fix it.

 

I think the marriage will be limited by what your husband is capable of providing. Personally, I do not think that unconditional love is appropriate in adult relationships, and that is often what people seek and expect in marriages. Things can be pleasant. I have had plenty of roommates who have no interest in self-knowledge and exploration who I have had positive interactions with, but I never felt close to any of them. If you want more than what he can provide, it won't work.

[Boss]

Well, gifting SK books/dvds have always been a great way to introduce someone. And If someone sees the benefits of SK, im sure they will want more. 

What is your husband trying to improve on? im sure there are some SK resources that can help  

 

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

He's not trying to improve on anything; that's the problem. We have heaps of books he could read, but he prefers to spend his free time in his iPad. He's a typical avoidant personality who thinks other people have flaws they need to fix, but he doesn't. It's very hard to get him to look critically at himself or how he contributes to problems. Interestingly, he does occasionally come to counseling with me and will seem to appreciate what we do there or have a light bulb moment, but then he does nothing with it afterwards. My perception of him in general is that he's a person who wants a good life but isn't willing to be disciplined enough to put in the hard yards to get there. He inevitably takes the path of least resistance in all areas of his life.

[Drew.]

He's not trying to improve on anything; that's the problem. We have heaps of books he could read, but he prefers to spend his free time in his iPad. He's a typical avoidant personality who thinks other people have flaws they need to fix, but he doesn't. It's very hard to get him to look critically at himself or how he contributes to problems. Interestingly, he does occasionally come to counseling with me and will seem to appreciate what we do there or have a light bulb moment, but then he does nothing with it afterwards. My perception of him in general is that he's a person who wants a good life but isn't willing to be disciplined enough to put in the hard yards to get there. He inevitably takes the path of least resistance in all areas of his life.

 

I associate the avoidant-type with fear. If that's the case, I think that what he might have to face with the self-knowledge is frightening enough to him not to begin walking down that path. I could be wrong regarding your husband, though. Food for thought.

[A4E]

It should definitely start with questions, and not feel like something mandatory. Since it is the 'self' that is important.

 

So at the right peaceful and non mandatory situation, it could be productive to ask some very mild, neutral questions to try to get some conversation going. I understand that can be hard if he is busy with his electronics.

 

"Are you going to look into your history, so that we can find out why you are doing these things today?", Is of course the wrong approach, while something like "You told me your mother likes to knit. What other things does she like?" Would be a nice comfortable question to start things off. I have good experience in making the dam break by just going easy/mild in the conversation and let the other person do all the work. Also the relationship will automatically become closer and more open.

 

Its not your job to 'get' him interested. That should be of his own choosing, but I understand that you would like to "get" someone to do something, which we all have wanted at some point I'm sure. I don't think manipulation is a good path to travel, as things could get much worse.

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

Drew, you may well be right. He would have to face some really uncomfortable truths about his family and it would shake him to the core, I think.

 

A4E, he's not a conversationalist. Even getting a yes/no answer out of him is like pulling teeth. He never offers up information. If I want a conversation with him, I have to drive it and then I'm accused of "interrogating" him by asking too many questions. I feel like I can't win. Perhaps asking how to get him interested in SK was premature. Maybe I should have asked how can I get him to open up about himself? We've been married almost 5 years and I have next to no insight as to how he thinks or feels.

[A4E]

Maybe I should have asked how can I get him to open up about himself?

No. Way too aggressive, and again you are implying that it is your task to open him up.

 

It would be like if I asked you now: "How can I make you give us more detailed information about this issue?"  He would feel what you felt from that question now.

 

 

We've been married almost 5 years and I have next to no insight as to how he thinks or feels.

Wow. And here I thought you had a small problem with him not being interested in SK.

 

Does he have friends? friends online? Does he talk to them? Does he open up to them? Do you know anything about his life with his friends or anything?

[Bastii]

Podcast 2312 should be of great value for you.

[Drew.]

Drew, you may well be right. He would have to face some really uncomfortable truths about his family and it would shake him to the core, I think.

 

 

Well, if that's true, then patience would probably be the best strategy. Trying to pressure him into it will only backfire. But honestly, I don't know what the best course of action is here, nor what kind of threshold for patience and waiting is right/appropriate/what you have available.

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

A4E, he has no friends. He says he doesn't need or want friends, that he has his family (who all live in another country), and he is often very critical of me and my need for friends and how important it is to me to have friends.

 

Bastii, thanks for the recommendation. I'll look it up. :-)

 

Drew, I want to have kids and am in my last few fertile years. I don't feel like I have time for much more patience on this issue. Do I just accept that this is how he is, for better or worse, and resign myself to it and having a family with someone not interested in intimacy, or should this be a deal breaker and I move on?

[Drew.]

Drew, I want to have kids and am in my last few fertile years. I don't feel like I have time for much more patience on this issue. Do I just accept that this is how he is, for better or worse, and resign myself to it and having a family with someone not interested in intimacy, or should this be a deal breaker and I move on?

 

Honestly, I don't know. It's your life, and I don't know anything about it, really. Some questions that I would ask are, would this be a good marriage and relationship to bring children into? I would also ask myself, why do I want to have children? In any decision, there are positive and not so great motivations for pursuing it. To really be the best parent, it would be wise to uproot those not so great motives to provide more for any future potential children.

[thecurrentyear]

Read these:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Surrendered-Wife-Practical-Finding-Intimacy/dp/0743204441/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1483742607&sr=8-6&keywords=submissive+wife

 

https://www.amazon.com/Proper-Care-Feeding-Husbands/dp/0060520620/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483742645&sr=8-1&keywords=proper+care+and+feeding+of+husbands

 

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Passionate-Marriage-David-Schnarch/dp/1591790794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483742664&sr=8-1&keywords=secrets+of+a+passionate+marriage

[thecurrentyear]

I feel very sorry for the husband being described here.

[Spenc]

1.  Out of curiosity, why were you attracted to him in the first place?  Why did you think a lifelong relationship was a good idea in the past when you were proposed marriage?  It might kind of give him a shake to the head if you gave him a breakdown of how he is a) different than he was in the beginning when you fell in love; b) in contrast, the same as he was back then and has not grown as a person in all this time; and/or c) different than how you (as an individual or as a couple) had envisioned when you planned your lives together, thus creating a disappointment in your lives.

 

2. I would actually say the best course of action, based on the limited knowledge I have from this thread, would be for you to participate in a call-in show, have a lengthy chat with Stef to uncover some core issues in the relationship and with yourself and him as individuals.  Then sit down and have him listen to the episode with you and see how he reacts and proceeds from there.

 

3.  If you're not open to the idea of calling in, I would suggest maybe you try to do like a role play type of thing within your own mind, or maybe with a friend or someone who you trust and is familiar with your relationship and can help.  Basically, write down like a movie script or however you would do it a dialogue of you either talking about the relationship the way you might in the call-in show or if you were talking directly to him.  Have him sit down with you and read through it and again, see how he reacts and proceeds from there.

 

I'm just trying to kind of offer you a method or two of having the conversation with him in a way that is a bit more passive for him, since you mention he is not open and talkative if you put him in an active role.  Just my opinion on one strategy to take

I want to have kids and am in my last few fertile years. I don't feel like I have time for much more patience on this issue. Do I just accept that this is how he is, for better or worse, and resign myself to it and having a family with someone not interested in intimacy, or should this be a deal breaker and I move on?

 

What is your sexual market value?  I'll assume you are 30-33, but you could also be referring to like a baseline fertility with higher risks of problems which would put you at 37-40.

 

In either case, there are certainly men out there looking.  If you're in the over-35 group, you might be looking at divorced part-time dads highly represented in your dating market.  You might want to search statistics about your area, your age group, etc.  I believe match.com does annual statistical reports about their membership, or maybe it's another site.  Then again, i think plenty of fish and most of the rest do as well, so you should be able to get an idea for what your market value is out there, and what kind of value is out there for you to get.

 

You would also have to take into account the issues surrounding a divorce from just making court dates, meeting with lawyers, etc. to the emotional stress of doing it.  And how long would it take you to clear your mind and heart to start dating again?  That could take roughly 3 years of fertility and reduce it to about 1 really easily, if your husband would be contentious about a breakup.

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

1.  Out of curiosity, why were you attracted to him in the first place?  Why did you think a lifelong relationship was a good idea in the past when you were proposed marriage?  It might kind of give him a shake to the head if you gave him a breakdown of how he is a) different than he was in the beginning when you fell in love; b) in contrast, the same as he was back then and has not grown as a person in all this time; and/or c) different than how you (as an individual or as a couple) had envisioned when you planned your lives together, thus creating a disappointment in your lives.

 

I was in a really bad situation and he provided the means for me to escape. We had a very short courtship. He proposed initially within one week. I accepted after 3 months. In the aftermath of getting out of that bad situation, I was not in any position to be making life changing decisions, but I was scared, vulnerable, and desperate and he seemed like my best option. After we were engaged, I started uncovering some major lies, but I looked past them because I didn't think I had any better option. Saying no at that point would have left me with nowhere to live, no job, nothing. Lies aside, he was an attractive guy, he was nice to me, he was financially stable, etc. I didn't really know him well as a person, but from where I was sitting at the time, it looked pretty good. In retrospect, with the benefit of the SK I have now and did not have then, it was a very poor decision to marry him.

 

2. I would actually say the best course of action, based on the limited knowledge I have from this thread, would be for you to participate in a call-in show, have a lengthy chat with Stef to uncover some core issues in the relationship and with yourself and him as individuals.  Then sit down and have him listen to the episode with you and see how he reacts and proceeds from there.

3.  If you're not open to the idea of calling in, I would suggest maybe you try to do like a role play type of thing within your own mind, or maybe with a friend or someone who you trust and is familiar with your relationship and can help.  Basically, write down like a movie script or however you would do it a dialogue of you either talking about the relationship the way you might in the call-in show or if you were talking directly to him.  Have him sit down with you and read through it and again, see how he reacts and proceeds from there.

 

I would feel very nervous to do that. He would be furious with me for calling in and talking publicly about our problems. I once mentioned to a friend a couple years ago that he had lied to me to get me to marry him and he still throws that in my face about how I violated his privacy every time we argue. The same issue would apply if I involved a friend. He does not have any friends and does not like any of mine. :-( He is also very reluctant in counselling to talk about any issues I have, as well. I have been yelled at for bringing up things that it turned out he did not want discussed, but hadn't told me beforehand. I feel very fearful of involving other people now or trying to talk to him about the concerns I have about our relationship. 

 

What is your sexual market value?  I'll assume you are 30-33, but you could also be referring to like a baseline fertility with higher risks of problems which would put you at 37-40.

 

I'm 32, he is 50. 

I don't think I'd have any trouble attracting men if I went out looking; I'm just not sure they would be an improvement. I feel like it would be a very risky move because I might not find anyone I like better. I could be easily trading in my husband for someone with the same or similar problems and settling just because I'm too scared about not being able to have kids.

 

My preference would be to make things work with him. Even if he's not willing to change, I'm hoping/wondering if there is a way to at least get along peacefully so we can raise a family. I am presently under constant attack for my SK work. That's why I asked how to get him interested because I thought if he were interested, we could stop fighting about what I'm doing.

[A4E]

 

we could stop fighting about what I'm doing.

Remember that you are also to some degree fighting about what he is doing. You pressuring him is likely not going to make him want to look at SK ever.

 

Trying to change a 50 year old man who is not being open to new information, history of manipulation, huge red flag proposal after 1 week, and he don't even want to talk, but is ok with yelling. Now that is a challenge. Fighting about it, like most couples fighting, is never going to change anything. Other than one of you ending up in some substance abuse, or hospital, or worse. Do not try to convince yourself otherwise. "Well, if I just say this, or do that..." No. Aggressive behaviour or fighting is never going to solve anything.

[adamNJ]

Remember that you are also to some degree fighting about what he is doing. You pressuring him is likely not going to make him want to look at SK ever.

 

Trying to change a 50 year old man who is not being open to new information, history of manipulation, huge red flag proposal after 1 week, and he don't even want to talk, but is ok with yelling. Now that is a challenge. Fighting about it, like most couples fighting, is never going to change anything. Other than one of you ending up in some substance abuse, or hospital, or worse. Do not try to convince yourself otherwise. "Well, if I just say this, or do that..." No. Aggressive behaviour or fighting is never going to solve anything.

Red flags

[Spenc]

1.  Out of curiosity, why were you attracted to him in the first place?  Why did you think a lifelong relationship was a good idea in the past when you were proposed marriage?  It might kind of give him a shake to the head if you gave him a breakdown of how he is a) different than he was in the beginning when you fell in love; b) in contrast, the same as he was back then and has not grown as a person in all this time; and/or c) different than how you (as an individual or as a couple) had envisioned when you planned your lives together, thus creating a disappointment in your lives.

 

I was in a really bad situation and he provided the means for me to escape. We had a very short courtship. He proposed initially within one week. I accepted after 3 months. In the aftermath of getting out of that bad situation, I was not in any position to be making life changing decisions, but I was scared, vulnerable, and desperate and he seemed like my best option. After we were engaged, I started uncovering some major lies, but I looked past them because I didn't think I had any better option. Saying no at that point would have left me with nowhere to live, no job, nothing. Lies aside, he was an attractive guy, he was nice to me, he was financially stable, etc. I didn't really know him well as a person, but from where I was sitting at the time, it looked pretty good. In retrospect, with the benefit of the SK I have now and did not have then, it was a very poor decision to marry him.

 

 

I'm curious, how would you rate the character of your husband based on this 'courtship'?  Or generally, any financially stable 45-year old man with highly limited personal skills picking up a young woman at her lowest point and springing a proposal on her when her only other options would be like a women's shelter or something?  Have you discussed this with your husband or in counseling?  It seems like you're not 'supposed to' talk about this, as you mention below that he a) lied in addition to preying on you at your weakest; and b) was upset when you shared this info with a friend.  How would he react to you saying the marriage was a mistake at the outset?

 

2. I would actually say the best course of action, based on the limited knowledge I have from this thread, would be for you to participate in a call-in show, have a lengthy chat with Stef to uncover some core issues in the relationship and with yourself and him as individuals.  Then sit down and have him listen to the episode with you and see how he reacts and proceeds from there.

3.  If you're not open to the idea of calling in, I would suggest maybe you try to do like a role play type of thing within your own mind, or maybe with a friend or someone who you trust and is familiar with your relationship and can help.  Basically, write down like a movie script or however you would do it a dialogue of you either talking about the relationship the way you might in the call-in show or if you were talking directly to him.  Have him sit down with you and read through it and again, see how he reacts and proceeds from there.

 

I would feel very nervous to do that. He would be furious with me for calling in and talking publicly about our problems. I once mentioned to a friend a couple years ago that he had lied to me to get me to marry him and he still throws that in my face about how I violated his privacy every time we argue. The same issue would apply if I involved a friend. He does not have any friends and does not like any of mine. :-( He is also very reluctant in counselling to talk about any issues I have, as well. I have been yelled at for bringing up things that it turned out he did not want discussed, but hadn't told me beforehand. I feel very fearful of involving other people now or trying to talk to him about the concerns I have about our relationship. 

 

 

 

 

So, how nervous are you then posting information on this forum?  Aside from your voice, you could be equally anonymous on a call with Stef.  Can you explain what you mean when you say you are "fearful" of involving other people or trying to talk to him?  Is there a physical threat, or is this a fear conditioned in you from your past that he exploits now?

 

What is your sexual market value?  I'll assume you are 30-33, but you could also be referring to like a baseline fertility with higher risks of problems which would put you at 37-40.

 

I'm 32, he is 50. 

I don't think I'd have any trouble attracting men if I went out looking; I'm just not sure they would be an improvement. I feel like it would be a very risky move because I might not find anyone I like better. I could be easily trading in my husband for someone with the same or similar problems and settling just because I'm too scared about not being able to have kids.

 

My preference would be to make things work with him. Even if he's not willing to change, I'm hoping/wondering if there is a way to at least get along peacefully so we can raise a family. I am presently under constant attack for my SK work. That's why I asked how to get him interested because I thought if he were interested, we could stop fighting about what I'm doing.

 

 

Hence why it might be valuable for you to research some statistics about what the dating market is really like in your area and age group.  If you're not sure if there are better options available, all the more reason to research and know.  My mom once told me that "i did the best I could", and Stef and callers into the show often mention that line from parents as a way to deflect inquiry and criticism.  Well, if you have kids with this man and then they have a father that won't allow them to connect with him, no matter how much you work on your own self and connect to them, you can't say that you 'did the best you could' if you aren't going to spend a few hours looking up statistics to help you decide on who their father will be.

 

Is your husband already open or accepting to your hope of having children?  And do you sense he is genuinely accepting of children for growing your family as opposed to a) conceding children to you so that he can always hold that over you that he made a major compromise; or b) a way to further lock you into a marriage where he does not meet your needs.

 

Like, what is really keeping you two together for the rest of your lives?  What are the chances that if he is refusing to change that you are actually going to carry on with this for 30 more years, and be there to care for him in his old age and give him comfort as he slips into the mortal abyss?  Obviously, if you have kids, he gets you locked in for 18 more years, and even if the marriage breaks up at that point once the child-rearing is done, he gets a kid or two as indentured servants to accommodate his behaviour.

[thecurrentyear]

If he's a narcissist you need to get out. He will not change. Your fear of not finding someone better is sickening. Don't your children deserve a good father? If you can't supply one for them, you should not have any.

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

I don't think he is a narcissist and he does have good qualities, too. We just don't have a close relationship at all. He says he wants to learn about intimacy, but then doesn't want to do anything that would increase his knowledge. It's a common pattern in all areas of his life that he says he wants something but isn't willing to put in the hard yards to get it. I know he might not ever be interested in SK, which is why I asked in my original post if anyone had experience in making a successful marriage when one partner is resistant to SK.

[thecurrentyear]

Ok then don't talk about him like he's a psychopath. Pick one. If he "just won't pursue SK" then read the books I posted. If he's awful and manipulative and becomes "furious" at simple things as you claim, then leave. You're going to need to pick a position though, if you want us to have any useful advice for you here. You cannot jump back and forth in claiming he's okay, but resistant, then that he's a pathological liar who yells at you at the drop of a hat. One or the other.

[Spenc]

Ok then don't talk about him like he's a psychopath. Pick one. If he "just won't pursue SK" then read the books I posted. If he's awful and manipulative and becomes "furious" at simple things as you claim, then leave. You're going to need to pick a position though, if you want us to have any useful advice for you here. You cannot jump back and forth in claiming he's okay, but resistant, then that he's a pathological liar who yells at you at the drop of a hat. One or the other.

 

Based on her descriptions of her husband, narcissism and psychopathy did not really come to my mind and there is a lot of open space for a person to occupy between being curious and knowledgeable about oneself and being a psychopath or a narcissist.

[RichardY]

"But choose wisely, for while the true Grail will bring you life, the false Grail will take it from you."
 

 
"He chose... Poorly." No Shit, hahahahahahaha.
 
 
How do you get someone interested in SK?
 
You don't. Having said that, you could try various social activities, get more involved in a community. Various fables, old childrens stories, Angry Birds Movie(Not seen it).....

 

SK to me seems basically a lot like psychology(Not a Psychologist). Covers a wide spectrum, ultimately comes down to who you are, though ethics is a very important component.

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

Spenc, I missed your post last time I checked this thread. Sorry about that.

I'm curious, how would you rate the character of your husband based on this 'courtship'?  Or generally, any financially stable 45-year old man with highly limited personal skills picking up a young woman at her lowest point and springing a proposal on her when her only other options would be like a women's shelter or something?  Have you discussed this with your husband or in counseling?  It seems like you're not 'supposed to' talk about this, as you mention below that he a) lied in addition to preying on you at your weakest; and b) was upset when you shared this info with a friend.  How would he react to you saying the marriage was a mistake at the outset?

 

I feel very confused about it. I have had people tell me that what he did was predatory and I have had people tell me that what he did was caring. I do lean more towards believing it came from a caring place, or at least that he believes he was being caring. I have tried to discuss it with him and he gets very defensive because he thinks I must be criticising him, questioning his motives, etc. He had purchased a place for me to live (though we didn't close on it until two months later) and had given me a ring that was worth quite a bit. In his view, he was giving me a choice because I could have kept these things and used them to start a new life for myself, but in my view, I felt indebted to him. I couldn't have walked off and felt okay about accepting so much from him. If I said the marriage was a mistake, he'd probably feel hurt, but would react with anger and accusations.

So, how nervous are you then posting information on this forum?  Aside from your voice, you could be equally anonymous on a call with Stef.  Can you explain what you mean when you say you are "fearful" of involving other people or trying to talk to him?  Is there a physical threat, or is this a fear conditioned in you from your past that he exploits now?
 

He doesn't know I post here and afaik, we don't have any mutual friends who also read these boards. We do have a lot of mutual friends who listen to the show, however. So I feel like the boards are more anonymous than a call. I don't think he would ever physically hurt me, so probably more a conditioned fear based on past experiences. 

 

Is your husband already open or accepting to your hope of having children?  And do you sense he is genuinely accepting of children for growing your family as opposed to a) conceding children to you so that he can always hold that over you that he made a major compromise; or b) a way to further lock you into a marriage where he does not meet your needs.

 

He is constantly holding it over my head that we don't have children yet and blaming me for ruining things by postponing it. I have tried on a number of occasions to have a serious conversation about having children, but in his mind, it was a foregone conclusion that we would do this when we got married (he says he sees no point in marriage if it doesn't result in children) and he doesn't think there is anything to discuss. I have legitimate concerns about having children and my attempts to address these issues with him, either just with each other or in therapy, have come to nothing. I do not know why he wants children, if he actually does want children (as opposed to just feeling like that is what people are supposed to do), how he would function as a parent, what his plans are for the future in terms of providing for a family, etc. In my mind, there are a lot of variables and uncertainties that I want addressed before making such a big decision and he doesn't take any of them seriously.

 

Like, what is really keeping you two together for the rest of your lives?  What are the chances that if he is refusing to change that you are actually going to carry on with this for 30 more years, and be there to care for him in his old age and give him comfort as he slips into the mortal abyss?  Obviously, if you have kids, he gets you locked in for 18 more years, and even if the marriage breaks up at that point once the child-rearing is done, he gets a kid or two as indentured servants to accommodate his behaviour.

 

It's a good question because we don't have very much in common at all.

[thecurrentyear]

Based on her descriptions of her husband, narcissism and psychopathy did not really come to my mind and there is a lot of open space for a person to occupy between being curious and knowledgeable about oneself and being a psychopath or a narcissist.

 

I quoted some of the points that I saw going in that direction. I think it's pretty clear she's waffling, and attempting to blame him while claiming innocence for herself. I see she has not asked, nor has she responded to my attempts to show her, how SHE can be better in the relationship.

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

I quoted some of the points that I saw going in that direction. I think it's pretty clear she's waffling, and attempting to blame him while claiming innocence for herself. I see she has not asked, nor has she responded to my attempts to show her, how SHE can be better in the relationship.

 

I'm working on me being better in the relationship. My question was about getting my husband to want to put in the same effort. I have a lot of guidance on what I need to be doing and I'm making it a priority in my life. I am frustrated that my husband does not see its importance.

[thecurrentyear]

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

If you have a point you want to make, I'm listening.

[Spenc]

Spenc, I missed your post last time I checked this thread. Sorry about that.

 

 

I'm curious, how would you rate the character of your husband based on this 'courtship'?  Or generally, any financially stable 45-year old man with highly limited personal skills picking up a young woman at her lowest point and springing a proposal on her when her only other options would be like a women's shelter or something?  Have you discussed this with your husband or in counseling?  It seems like you're not 'supposed to' talk about this, as you mention below that he a) lied in addition to preying on you at your weakest; and b) was upset when you shared this info with a friend.  How would he react to you saying the marriage was a mistake at the outset?

 

I feel very confused about it. I have had people tell me that what he did was predatory and I have had people tell me that what he did was caring. I do lean more towards believing it came from a caring place, or at least that he believes he was being caring. I have tried to discuss it with him and he gets very defensive because he thinks I must be criticising him, questioning his motives, etc. He had purchased a place for me to live (though we didn't close on it until two months later) and had given me a ring that was worth quite a bit. In his view, he was giving me a choice because I could have kept these things and used them to start a new life for myself, but in my view, I felt indebted to him. I couldn't have walked off and felt okay about accepting so much from him. If I said the marriage was a mistake, he'd probably feel hurt, but would react with anger and accusations.

 

 

So here is a theory of why he is resistant to self-knowledge.  Obviously, if he isn't self aware, then he can do things like this that appear good and benevolent on the surface and he can feel like a noble white knight for his actions.  We know that someone with self knowledge would not have made these same choices and would empathize with the young woman and recognize she is under duress and feels indebted.  Therefore.....if you push him to pursue self-knowledge, he has to come to terms with the fact that he had a history of this sort of manipulation, recognized an opportunity to prey on you, and went into fast action to do so.  Because right now, while he lacks the self-knowledge he doesn't have to face responsibility for his actions and you are kind of condoning and excusing his behaviours.  Somewhat fairly in the sense that he lacked the tools to consciously know what he was doing (giving him the benefit of the doubt based on your answers), but at the same time, he was 45 years old and completely responsible to understand his own actions. 

 

 

So, how nervous are you then posting information on this forum?  Aside from your voice, you could be equally anonymous on a call with Stef.  Can you explain what you mean when you say you are "fearful" of involving other people or trying to talk to him?  Is there a physical threat, or is this a fear conditioned in you from your past that he exploits now?

 

He doesn't know I post here and afaik, we don't have any mutual friends who also read these boards. We do have a lot of mutual friends who listen to the show, however. So I feel like the boards are more anonymous than a call. I don't think he would ever physically hurt me, so probably more a conditioned fear based on past experiences. 

 

 

 

So he does have friends then?  I don't understand the mutual friend thing....

 

Would these friends be aware of any of the conflicts in your marriage, or do you abstain from talking about those due to your husband's anger?

 

When you say it is fear conditioned from the past, do you mean from your family relationships as a child?  Again, it seems like your husband is really intelligent in the ways of [probably subconsciously] empathizing with you and then using his sense of your emotions to manipulate you.  He seems really adept at recognizing how to get you to self-censor and excuse his bad behaviours and stuff.  So like I said above, what incentive does he have to change himself?  He will have to face his own history which will be hell for him, and he will lose this factor of plausible deniability about his intentions with respect to how he has mistreated and manipulated you!  As long as he stays as he is, he can expect you to not notice or hold him responsible for his skillful awareness of your psyche and his manipulations! 

 

Is your husband already open or accepting to your hope of having children?  And do you sense he is genuinely accepting of children for growing your family as opposed to a) conceding children to you so that he can always hold that over you that he made a major compromise; or b) a way to further lock you into a marriage where he does not meet your needs.

 

He is constantly holding it over my head that we don't have children yet and blaming me for ruining things by postponing it. I have tried on a number of occasions to have a serious conversation about having children, but in his mind, it was a foregone conclusion that we would do this when we got married (he says he sees no point in marriage if it doesn't result in children) and he doesn't think there is anything to discuss. I have legitimate concerns about having children and my attempts to address these issues with him, either just with each other or in therapy, have come to nothing. I do not know why he wants children, if he actually does want children (as opposed to just feeling like that is what people are supposed to do), how he would function as a parent, what his plans are for the future in terms of providing for a family, etc. In my mind, there are a lot of variables and uncertainties that I want addressed before making such a big decision and he doesn't take any of them seriously.

 

 

Isn't this incredibly strange to you that you know a man 5 years, who wants you to have his children, and you don't know why he wants kids?  And it seems questionable how badly he really wants to have the children because otherwise he would be trying to answer your questions and address your concerns so that the baby-making could commence, right?  Like, if I really want a job, I make sure I am prepared to discuss in detail why I want the job, why I'm fit for the job, etc. so that I actually have a chance at getting said job.  It may be a bit tedious, but I really want the job so that is not going to deter me, and in fact I'll be motivated to meet the expectations.

 

 

Like, what is really keeping you two together for the rest of your lives?  What are the chances that if he is refusing to change that you are actually going to carry on with this for 30 more years, and be there to care for him in his old age and give him comfort as he slips into the mortal abyss?  Obviously, if you have kids, he gets you locked in for 18 more years, and even if the marriage breaks up at that point once the child-rearing is done, he gets a kid or two as indentured servants to accommodate his behaviour.

 

It's a good question because we don't have very much in common at all.

 

And of course, after he dies, you're younger and a woman, so you;re probably living 25+ years alone after his death.  That means he has to provide you with a spectacular ~30 years of marriage from now until he passes to not only compensate you for that 30 years of your time but also for the 25-30 years of being a widow that follow.

 

Just curious why you didn't have any comment about my point about researching into your dating market.  I'm not pushing you to dump this guy and hit the meat market or anything, I just wanted to make the point that I mentioned in the last post:  when you have kids, you want to be able to tell them that you did the best you could, and this means not only from the time of birth or conception, but from the time you set out to determine who the father will be.  If you take it for granted that this man is the best father out there, then you aren't really doing the best you can.  Which isn't to say that he isn't the best available man, just that you maybe shouldn't base that off of a month-long courtship while you were under duress

[thecurrentyear]

Did already. You may respond to any of them whenever you so choose.

TLDR: If he's worth staying with, then work on making yourself a pleasant and trustworthy wife. This is the way to bring out the best in your husband (and the only way to "make" him want to pursue SK). If he's intractable, leave him.

[dysfunc_survivor]

As a codependent myself, this relationship from what I have read (not super carefully, I admit) reeks of narcissism / codependency. I suggest the book Human Magnet Syndrome by Ross Rosenberg. My mother is a covert narcissist. Her manipulation of the narrative in my family had me fooled for many years despite me being in therapy. It's not an easy thing to spot, especially if you're been in it for a long time. It's the reddest pill you can take, in my experience.

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

So here is a theory of why he is resistant to self-knowledge.  Obviously, if he isn't self aware, then he can do things like this that appear good and benevolent on the surface and he can feel like a noble white knight for his actions.  We know that someone with self knowledge would not have made these same choices and would empathize with the young woman and recognize she is under duress and feels indebted.  Therefore.....if you push him to pursue self-knowledge, he has to come to terms with the fact that he had a history of this sort of manipulation, recognized an opportunity to prey on you, and went into fast action to do so.  Because right now, while he lacks the self-knowledge he doesn't have to face responsibility for his actions and you are kind of condoning and excusing his behaviours.  Somewhat fairly in the sense that he lacked the tools to consciously know what he was doing (giving him the benefit of the doubt based on your answers), but at the same time, he was 45 years old and completely responsible to understand his own actions.  

 

I agree. I tried to press him on these very points about a year and a half ago and he got really angry and offended that I would suggest his motives were anything other than caring and generous. In his defense, the kind of women he had experience with would have had no moral problem with taking everything he'd put on the table and walking off with it and he didn't know me well enough at that point to know that I was different in that regard and instead just felt obligated to him. I think if I continued to push the issue, his perception would be that I am ungrateful. 

 

So he does have friends then?  I don't understand the mutual friend thing....

 

Would these friends be aware of any of the conflicts in your marriage, or do you abstain from talking about those due to your husband's anger?

 

I should have said acquaintances. We have people we see socially, who are either really more my friends or just acquaintances. Only a couple of them are aware of any issues between us. I discreetly talk to one or two people about our problems, who I trust will keep it to themselves, and the rest are unaware.

 

When you say it is fear conditioned from the past, do you mean from your family relationships as a child?  Again, it seems like your husband is really intelligent in the ways of [probably subconsciously] empathizing with you and then using his sense of your emotions to manipulate you.  He seems really adept at recognizing how to get you to self-censor and excuse his bad behaviours and stuff.  So like I said above, what incentive does he have to change himself?  He will have to face his own history which will be hell for him, and he will lose this factor of plausible deniability about his intentions with respect to how he has mistreated and manipulated you!  As long as he stays as he is, he can expect you to not notice or hold him responsible for his skillful awareness of your psyche and his manipulations! 

 

I do have a lot of fear of angry men, some of that probably comes from family relationships, mainly my dad.

 

I think you're right about how he uses people's emotions to manipulate them because his entire family operates that way. As I have worked on improving myself, I stand up to these manipulations more and more. I don't get aggressive about it, but I will tell him that I'm not responsible for his feelings or that a particular thing he might be asking me to do or not do is asking me to self erase. As you can imagine, he doesn't like that at all and quickly gets frustrated. It's then very hard to have a conversation about it because he focuses in on blaming me for all the ways I'm frustrating him, instead of just taking responsibility for his own feelings and looking at the ways in which he frustrates himself. I'm probably a bit abrasive in some of these situations and that's not helpful, but I am not very skilled at asserting my boundaries yet and presently I still feel like I need to take a strong position in order to protect my boundaries from being trampled on in those situations because I'm still pretty gullible and easily manipulated if I'm not keeping a close eye out for it.

 

Isn't this incredibly strange to you that you know a man 5 years, who wants you to have his children, and you don't know why he wants kids?  And it seems questionable how badly he really wants to have the children because otherwise he would be trying to answer your questions and address your concerns so that the baby-making could commence, right?  Like, if I really want a job, I make sure I am prepared to discuss in detail why I want the job, why I'm fit for the job, etc. so that I actually have a chance at getting said job.  It may be a bit tedious, but I really want the job so that is not going to deter me, and in fact I'll be motivated to meet the expectations.

 

That's a great analogy. I also think it is strange and I have been continually frustrated by it. He will either smile and nod and tell me what he thinks I want to hear or he will blow me off or he will mock my concerns, but never once have any of them actually been properly addressed. Some of these are really important things, like where we will live if our family grows or what our financial plan is if I'm not working. It's like he expects me to just trust him to take care of it all and not ask any questions, except he is shit with money and future planning, so I'm not at all comfortable with just trusting him to take care of things. I don't understand why he is so resistant to discussing these issues with me.

 

Just curious why you didn't have any comment about my point about researching into your dating market.  I'm not pushing you to dump this guy and hit the meat market or anything, I just wanted to make the point that I mentioned in the last post:  when you have kids, you want to be able to tell them that you did the best you could, and this means not only from the time of birth or conception, but from the time you set out to determine who the father will be.  If you take it for granted that this man is the best father out there, then you aren't really doing the best you can.  Which isn't to say that he isn't the best available man, just that you maybe shouldn't base that off of a month-long courtship while you were under duress

 

I'm surrounded by men. I would have no shortage of men lining up to take his place if we split up. So I do have some idea of what is available to me. As to brand new people, demographics don't tell me much because without really getting to know a person, I don't know if they are a better or worse option. I'm the kind of person who always has a Plan B, C, D,...Z in place, so I do keep an eye on what my options are at any given time. Not necessarily because I'm always looking to trade up, but because the person I'm with could get hit by a bus tomorrow for all I know. So it's good to know these things and I have never not been aware of my option in that regard (and have consequently never been single in my entire adult life, which may or may not be a good thing).

 

My husband does have a lot of good qualities going for him in terms of being a father- he's good looking and very intelligent, both of which would be passed on to any children; he earns enough to support a family in which only he works and I can stay home and homeschool; he believes in investing in one's children to give them the best possible opportunities in life; he would probably be willing to do the "fun" parts of parenting with them like playing a sport with them or helping with science projects and such. He's quite good at providing for physical needs, just really bad at providing for emotional ones.

 

When it comes to choosing a father, I think it is important to have a good marriage into which to bring children into and it would be great if I could give them an emotionally available father. But I also have to make sure they would be well provided for and would not have to be dumped into daycare or public school, so I think it would be irresponsible to say that fulfilling emotional needs trumps fulfilling physical needs. And ultimately, if I stay with him, I will be the one who is the most miserable with the situation just because of how lonely I will always feel (assuming he doesn't ever change).

As a codependent myself, this relationship from what I have read (not super carefully, I admit) reeks of narcissism / codependency. I suggest the book Human Magnet Syndrome by Ross Rosenberg. My mother is a covert narcissist. Her manipulation of the narrative in my family had me fooled for many years despite me being in therapy. It's not an easy thing to spot, especially if you're been in it for a long time. It's the reddest pill you can take, in my experience.

Thanks, I will look that up.

Did already. You may respond to any of them whenever you so choose.

TLDR: If he's worth staying with, then work on making yourself a pleasant and trustworthy wife. This is the way to bring out the best in your husband (and the only way to "make" him want to pursue SK). If he's intractable, leave him.

 

I appreciate that you have responded on my post and I thank you for that. I'm just not sure we're on the same page. Being a pleasant and trustworthy wife got me taken for granted and I ended up miserable. 

[Spenc]

My husband does have a lot of good qualities going for him in terms of being a father- he's good looking and very intelligent, both of which would be passed on to any children; he earns enough to support a family in which only he works and I can stay home and homeschool; he believes in investing in one's children to give them the best possible opportunities in life; he would probably be willing to do the "fun" parts of parenting with them like playing a sport with them or helping with science projects and such. He's quite good at providing for physical needs, just really bad at providing for emotional ones.

. 

 

I'm curious:

 

1. Objective/Rational:  Does your husband love you? 

2. Subjective/Emotional:  Do you feel loved in the relationship?  How often?

 

Based on your answers, how do you hypothesize children would experience growing up with this person as their parent?

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

I'm curious:

 

1. Objective/Rational:  Does your husband love you? 

2. Subjective/Emotional:  Do you feel loved in the relationship?  How often?

 

Based on your answers, how do you hypothesize children would experience growing up with this person as their parent?

 

1. He says he does. If you pressed him, he would struggle to tell you what he loves about me specifically, but would swear up and down that he does love me. I am not sure if he just thinks that is what he is supposed to say/think/feel or if he actually does love me in a way that makes sense to him. 

 

2. Not usually. He is a white knight, so I feel most loved and cared for when I need "rescuing". I am often ill or have injuries and he likes taking care of me. He doesn't do as well with emotional distress, but he will still try to fix it for me. Outside of that context, I do not feel loved.

 

I have mixed feelings on the children question. He is most comfortable in situations where he needs to take care of someone and children always need care, so I could see him doting on them and always wanting to try to make them happy (which can be both good and bad). But he does get resentful about being a "resource provider" or that no one ever takes care of him. My thinking is that because he would be away at work most of the time, his kids' neediness wouldn't be too overwhelming and overall they would have a positive experience of him. He would end up being the "fun" dad, while I would have the disciplinarian role of the "mean" mom.