themortalgod Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 One thing about religion that has always confused me is that "if" god or some other similar divine being did exist, why would they care any more about us worshipping them than humans care about being worshipped by insects? The film watchmen always gets me thinking about this due to the scene when Veidt think he has destroyed Dr Manhatten only to have Manhatten respond by saying: "Did you really think it would kill me? I have walked across the surface of the sun. I have witnessed events so tiny and so fast, they could hardly be said to have occurred at all. But you, Adrian, you're just a man. The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite." Within the scope of that film/comic Dr Manhatten is effectively a divine being (even though he was created from a mortal so retains a connection to humanity) His logic is accurate though, the actions of humans are so trivial to him that they couldn't possibly pose a threat. I imagine an eternal divine being that infinitely predated humanity would care even less about individual humans.I just can't see a divine being thinking: "I need to make sure that these tiny creatures on this one planet of the billions of planets in this one galaxy of the billions of galaxies in my universe spend their short blink of a lifespan adhering to a very specific religious doctrine that I have created and sent to them via subtle visions to a series of select prophets in extremely subjective format." Can anyone make a rational argument for why god would create religion or even care if humans were to adhere to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wuzzums Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Religion describes man as made in God's image. The difference between God and us is not the same as that of us and insects. I would say it's the same difference between a parent and a child. Parents care a lot about the love of their children. More so, we can move further. The difference between us and God can be as wide as the difference between us and the pets we keep. We love dogs and they love us back, this is why we are so attached to one another. Of course the love of a dog is incredibly primitive and unsophisticated but even so it's sufficient as to make us care deeply for them. In Watchmen don't forget that Dr. Manhattan's arrogance was what defeated him. Veidt saw through this, he saw the human underneath. Dr. Manhattan thought a human would pose no more of a threat to him, an all powerful being, as an insect would. This came right before Veidt used his next ultimate weapon which was aimed at Dr. Manhattan's human side. And Veidt won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.2 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Hi, themortalgod! (love the name) There is definitely a lot to unpack there, I think Wuzzums has covered the Dr.Manhattan part very well. Approaching God and religion in an intellectual way is a very exciting but long journey, still much more appealing to thinkers than the emotional path. What we know is that many very smart people have already made that journey, and they have written about it. By my experience, I know that I will never be able to convince you of anything, since I am only 20. However, I don't have to, because there is an ocean of resources provided by the Catholic Church. I hope your curiousity will lead you to Research: Directly for your question: https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/god For bite-sized answers: https://www.youtube.com/user/catholiccom For detailed answers: https://www.catholic.com/ For very deep philosophical answers: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Mister Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 There are different degrees/flavors of religiosity, and with them comes different interpretations of what something like "worship" means. For some, it's the ceremony, going to the building on the right day, singing the right songs, performing the right gestures, etc. For others, worship of their God means living in accordance with certain values. If anything, the ceremony ought to be a reminder of what these values are, recognition of something bigger than ourselves, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smith22 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 To me it would seem very pointless for a god to want you to worship them. Even if they regarded younas a child madee in their image or simply didn't regard your sctions as trivial and unimportant, then why would he not use his "all powerful abilities", as most gods are described as having, to make sure you worship him, and why would he let followers of othere religions not know the truth about him being the true god? You could say that he wants humans to worship him out of their own volition, but he already determines everything else in the universe, doesn't he? Saying he wants us to do so is hypocritical, and very mean to those who don't realize he is the true god, who waste their time, money, and sometimes die to "false" religious beliefs. There seems to me to be no rational way of explaining why he would not make everyone worship him if he deskred it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalebSC Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Frank Herbert wrote a series of books that deal with that very question, among others. It's a trilogy called the Pandora Sequence. But the trilogy is preceded by a book called Destination Void. Long story short, in Destination Void, humans create a computerized brain that turns into a god. Then that same god demands all humans to worship it. The books delve into the thought process of the god and why it wants to be worshipped. I recommend reading these books. It's a good read. Entirely fictional of course. 1 - Destination Void 2 - The Jesus Incident 3 - The Lazarus Effect 4 - Ascension Factor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rventurelli Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 God existing does not validate any religion. Religion and God are two separate things entirely. That being the case, I would not take the worshiping commandment literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Within the scope of that film/comic Dr Manhatten is effectively a divine being (even though he was created from a mortal so retains a connection to humanity) His logic is accurate though, the actions of humans are so trivial to him that they couldn't possibly pose a threat. I imagine an eternal divine being that infinitely predated humanity would care even less about individual humans. Not a divine being. Can anyone make a rational argument for why god would create religion or even care if humans were to adhere to it? I think you already know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 Not a divine being. I think you already know. tbh, my position is that there is no rational reason why a god of infinite power and wisdom would care even remotely about the individual worship of mortal humans who's lifespan is no more than a blink in its perception. It makes no sense. Our lives are so infinitely trivial within the context of being like that that our collective existence likely wouldn't even be within the scope of its awareness. If a divine being actually did exist (which all observable evidence points to be being incredibly unlikely but impossible to objectively prove) that the fact that it chooses to take no part in our lives whatsoever in any observable way shape or form suggests that my position is accurate. It doesn't care. It creates trillions of galaxies, with trillions of planets, and on one planet that houses trillions of beings, billions of which are humans that being cares about what each and every one of them does in their relatively insignificantly short life but does not care enough to actually communicate its desire directly so all of them are stuck in this permanent state of confusion about its intentions? My theory is that either god doesn't exist or doesn't care and that religion is entirely a human construct that has nothing to do with a divine will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 tbh, my position is that there is no rational reason why a god of infinite power and wisdom would care even remotely about the individual worship of mortal humans who's lifespan is no more than a blink in its perception. It makes no sense. Our lives are so infinitely trivial within the context of being like that that our collective existence likely wouldn't even be within the scope of its awareness. If a divine being actually did exist (which all observable evidence points to be being incredibly unlikely but impossible to objectively prove) that the fact that it chooses to take no part in our lives whatsoever in any observable way shape or form suggests that my position is accurate. It doesn't care. No specific comprehensible rational reason, but then reason is formed transcendentally. Infinite power and wisdom destroy; the concept of power and wisdom. Maybe you're right Hercules, perhaps our lives are trivial. Depends what you mean by divine. Concepts of Ascension and Arrogance come to mind, probably covered to some extent in the aforementioned lore. It creates trillions of galaxies, with trillions of planets, and on one planet that houses trillions of beings, billions of which are humans that being cares about what each and every one of them does in their relatively insignificantly short life but does not care enough to actually communicate its desire directly so all of them are stuck in this permanent state of confusion about its intentions? My theory is that either god doesn't exist or doesn't care and that religion is entirely a human construct that has nothing to do with a divine will. Why would it have to communicate and why does it have intentions. Why would the divine have a will. Maybe religion is a partial construction of the unconscious mind, not entirely human given the concept of evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 Why would it have to communicate and why does it have intentions. Why would the divine have a will. Maybe religion is a partial construction of the unconscious mind, not entirely human given the concept of evolution. If that is/was the case then it is arbitrary and a construct rather than a being, in which case worship it would be no different than worshiping any other inanimate object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 If that is/was the case then it is arbitrary and a construct rather than a being, in which case worship it would be no different than worshiping any other inanimate object. What would be attained or expressed in the worship of an inanimate object in order for there to be no differential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 What would be attained or expressed in the worship of an inanimate object in order for there to be no differential? Like with the worship of a fictional entity, nothing outside of the realms of your own mind. The benefit or harm of said worship is a construct of the mind, not a benefit of the object. Just like with a theoretical god in the cosmos. Our worship has no bearing on its existence, thus it wouldn't care about our worship. We worship for us, not for it. However, in the case of religion humans worship because they believe the deity demands worship. Its a paradox. If the deity is so massive and powerful that it is worth worshipping it likely doesn't care enough about us to want to be worshipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Like with the worship of a fictional entity, nothing outside of the realms of your own mind. The benefit or harm of said worship is a construct of the mind, not a benefit of the object. Just like with a theoretical god in the cosmos. Our worship has no bearing on its existence, thus it wouldn't care about our worship. We worship for us, not for it. However, in the case of religion humans worship because they believe the deity demands worship. Its a paradox. If the deity is so massive and powerful that it is worth worshipping it likely doesn't care enough about us to want to be worshipped. The object itself is a construct though. So worship exists, but "it" does not. Why would people believe a deity demands worship? I believe that in Judaism, the element of compassion is missing, but may exist as a potentiality. (early scorched earth policy) Which is why in Christianity, there is the concept of compassion in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HasMat Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 tbh, my position is that there is no rational reason why a god of infinite power and wisdom would care even remotely about the individual worship of mortal humans who's lifespan is no more than a blink in its perception. It makes no sense. Our lives are so infinitely trivial within the context of being like that that our collective existence likely wouldn't even be within the scope of its awareness. If a divine being actually did exist (which all observable evidence points to be being incredibly unlikely but impossible to objectively prove) that the fact that it chooses to take no part in our lives whatsoever in any observable way shape or form suggests that my position is accurate. It doesn't care. It creates trillions of galaxies, with trillions of planets, and on one planet that houses trillions of beings, billions of which are humans that being cares about what each and every one of them does in their relatively insignificantly short life but does not care enough to actually communicate its desire directly so all of them are stuck in this permanent state of confusion about its intentions? My theory is that either god doesn't exist or doesn't care and that religion is entirely a human construct that has nothing to do with a divine will. Didn't really want to comment but I found your post funny. You imagine a super awesome god, but then give him a meager level of curiosity and meager level of information processing. How many trillions of beings can an omniscient being keep track of? You make god so cool in so many ways, just not the ones that would undermine your logic. Seems strategic. Atheists love beating the shit out of strawman deity. Usually its annoying, but every once in a while it strikes me as so absurd and self-serving that I just lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jpendl10 Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Can anyone make a rational argument for why god would create religion or even care if humans were to adhere to it? One of my favorite scriptures is Moses 1:39 "For behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Heavenly Father did not establish his church on the earth for him, but for us. It was established to bring to pass our immortality and our eternal life. Since Heavenly Father is all powerfully and all knowing, the only way he recieves more glory is through eternal postarity, us. As we progress through the eternities he recieves more glory. But whether we receive eternal life or not or fallow him or not He is still God. His knowledge and power deosnt depend on us, his glory depends on us and our progression through the eterniries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Didn't really want to comment but I found your post funny. You imagine a super awesome god, but then give him a meager level of curiosity and meager level of information processing. How many trillions of beings can an omniscient being keep track of? You make god so cool in so many ways, just not the ones that would undermine your logic. Seems strategic. Atheists love beating the shit out of strawman deity. Usually its annoying, but every once in a while it strikes me as so absurd and self-serving that I just lol. lol how is it self serving? I never assumed god was unable to be aware of all those beings. Presuming a god's ability to simultaneously be aware of all beings in the universe there is a big difference between knowing of them and caring what they do. Why would it rationally care? Eternal salvation of the immortal soul? (That is determined by the deity) If it believes the eternal salvation of the immortal soul is so important (and should be so closely tied to worship of it) why not directly communicate that belief? Unless you believe there is a greater god that determines eternal salvation that we have no awareness of and it is the duty of "our" god to influence us in order to meet the requirement of this unknown greater god? But thats a whole different argument and also one with obvious logical flaws to it. Furthermore, why give beings free will if you intended to punish them for using it? Especially considering that you never intend to communicate what actions are good and what actions are bad? (Outside of religious texts which a human really has no way of knowing if it reflects the beliefs of the deity or are just some work of fiction by other humans) Faith, in essence, should be a sign of respect for the will of your deity, unfortunately, respect must be earned and said deity has never actually done anything that can measurably be used as a basis of respect. In a simple sense, within the context of most religions the god gave humans the ability to be skeptical but never considered giving them any mechanism to dispel that skepticism in regards to itself? Religion serves as a control mechanism. An all powerful deity doesn't need such an indirect control mechanism if it has the power to grant or remove free will and impose direct control if it so chooses. It could trivially make any adjustments it wants explicitly rather than using a vague implicit text. The use of religion as a control mechanism seems more like it benefits mortal individuals who want the power to influence free will but can only do so through manipulation of belief. Of course, there is also the possibility that the god is cruel rather than loving. Sort of goes against the teachings of Christian belief but if you were to imagine god with a similar disposition to a child torturing an insect for pleasure everything would make a lot more sense. Though still be just as impossible to objectively prove based on the evidence we are aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofd Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Heavenly Father did not establish his church on the earth for him, but for us. It was established to bring to pass our immortality and our eternal life. So why did God wait 90 000 years for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgggb Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 One thing about religion that has always confused me is that "if" god or some other similar divine being did exist, why would they care any more about us worshipping them than humans care about being worshipped by insects? The film watchmen always gets me thinking about this due to the scene when Veidt think he has destroyed Dr Manhatten only to have Manhatten respond by saying: "Did you really think it would kill me? I have walked across the surface of the sun. I have witnessed events so tiny and so fast, they could hardly be said to have occurred at all. But you, Adrian, you're just a man. The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite." Within the scope of that film/comic Dr Manhatten is effectively a divine being (even though he was created from a mortal so retains a connection to humanity) His logic is accurate though, the actions of humans are so trivial to him that they couldn't possibly pose a threat. I imagine an eternal divine being that infinitely predated humanity would care even less about individual humans. I just can't see a divine being thinking: "I need to make sure that these tiny creatures on this one planet of the billions of planets in this one galaxy of the billions of galaxies in my universe spend their short blink of a lifespan adhering to a very specific religious doctrine that I have created and sent to them via subtle visions to a series of select prophets in extremely subjective format." Can anyone make a rational argument for why god would create religion or even care if humans were to adhere to it? I am a God in the eyes of my dog. I've existed for longer than it can comprehend and will continue to exist for longer than it can comprehend. I can do things that seem like miracles, like make food rain from the sky. I provide totally and completely for my dogs welfare. I am a benevolent God. I have never commanded my dog to worship me, yet whenever I come home after work he meets me at the door and showers me with praise and love. I enjoy being worshiped because I know how much he appreciates everything that I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 "Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!" Dr Manhattan wasn't divine, because he wasn't truthful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jpendl10 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 So why did God wait 90 000 years for that? He established His church from the very begining right after the fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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