As a woman, how important is it to have deep, meaningful friendships with other women?

[WaterBearHug]

Do any other women here find it hard to befriend other women in a meaningful way?

 

I have some friends that are lovely people, but I often feel like the odd man out because they all seem so close to one another and I'm just not part of it. It's actually a relief to not be expected to join in for girls night outs, but I wonder if there is something "wrong" with me because I'm just not good at relating to women about things and I'm not the kind of person you'd call if you were in need of emotional support which seems to be a big thing women use to bond over. I've always been pretty introverted and am not the kind of woman who wants to go out and "cut loose" so I wonder if my reservation is off putting for other women.

 

I'm content with my husband being my best friend, the one I confide in and can be wholly myself around, but I have a young daughter and am starting to become concerned that I'm going to do her a disservice by not being able to model how to make and maintain strong relationships with other women. This concern was sparked by an acquaintance last night who seems to be very good at maintaining quite a few very strong female friendships mentioning how she's teaching her daughter the importance of developing good friendships with other girls because these friends she makes at her age can be a lifelong asset. I was sitting there thinking that the one good female friend I had as a teen isn't really a part of my life anymore, we grew apart quickly after high school graduation and were sort of an "odd couple" to begin with and she often teased me and tried to push me to "come out of my shell" and be something I'm just not.

 

I feel fulfilled and happy, all I honestly want or feel I need as far as close relationships go is my husband and my child, would you say that is unhealthy in some way?

[Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit]

I really struggle to make female friends. I've had maybe two good female friends in my whole life. I currently don't have any. Around other women, I, too, feel like the "odd one out". I just don't ever seem to click with them. And strangely, even with other women who have the same problem, we still struggle to connect with each other in any meaningful way. I don't know if you're doing your daughter a disservice. This is just the way you are and that's okay. As long as you're not trying to push her into being a certain way, I don't see why there is a problem. If you feel fulfilled and happy, I wonder why you think this might be a problem? 

[villagewisdom]

I can describe myself almost exactly the same way. My daughter, however, is very different. She once yelled at me in great anger something like, "I worked hard to be the most popular girl in school and YOU MADE ME MOVE." I was startled that it was that important to her. There is a very long story there and obviously I was not connecting with her in a very useful manner and am working on healing our relationship. There is a lot there that I won't go into here. My point is that for many women this is really, really important. And to me it was completely foreign. My daughter currently has several very close relationships with women that she has had for years. I am also able to connect with her now, but it takes effort and persistence on my part for her to open up. When she does it is a wonderful friendship. 

 

I still feel like there is something wrong with me. I never had ANY female friends -- or friends at all for that matter. Even now, only my daughter. I only wanted that one strong bond with a man and I wanted lots of children.

 

My 2 older brothers, my sister and I were all close in age and played together a lot. However, I also found myself playing alone much of the time. They just didn't see the world the same way that I did and so were not interested in the same things as me. And vise versa. I wasn't really interested in what they were interested in either. 

 

Recently I had an interaction with my sister-in-law where I think she was trying to connect with me or to get me to connect with her. She was trying to convince me to color my hair (it's been silver-gray for many, many years) and was suggesting some "fun" ideas. I've never been interested in that either. Never wore any make up but a little mascara and sometimes blush. I don't shop. I don't do much of anything that would be considered "girly". Well, I do love to cook and knit. But I did not really respond to my sister-in-law's attempt at interaction mainly because I simply wasn't interested in changing my hair color. I did not see it as fun at all. I saw that it would require me to do a lot of stuff with my hair later to get it back to its original state. But she would have just colored it some other color and so on. I simply had nothing to say.

 

I thought about faking it and just pretending to go along, but I'm not good with that. I value honesty and have a great deal of difficultly being anything else. Interacting with other women at this point would require me to learn lots of stuff about hair and nails and makeup. I have no interest in that. I would much rather read a good book on something like --- philosophy. And then have a really deep discussion about what I read and how I might approach my life differently or alter a long-held belief because of some new revelation. That really, really interests me. 

 

A different sister-in-law was hospitalized for a mental breakdown -- and this was many, many, many years ago. With her therapy it was recommended that she speak up about things that bothered her. I went to see her in the hospital and she said to me, "All I ever wanted was to be your friend." I still think about that from time to time. I don't know what she wanted that I did not provide. I thought we interacted well together but she obviously wanted something more. If I had the awareness I have now I would have asked her some questions about she expected from a someone she would call "friend."

 

I, too, am completely satisfied with my relationship with my husband as my best friend. Sometimes I still think about consciously trying to have relationships with women and even speak about the importance of this often in my podcasts. Based on study and interactions over the years, I think that strong female-to-female bonds are really, really important for most women. They need someone to be emotional with that will understand and not judge them. I provide that for lots of women. In fact, in my younger days, I was the go-to person when women needed to talk. But they were not what I would call "friends."

 

I am an alpha female for sure. I dominate a room just by walking in and being there. If I do have conversation, I will definitely be a prominent voice. Now that I am writing about this, there are other things that are coming to mind. Other women are intimidated by my very presence for the most part. I don't understand this but I am very aware of it. I don't know where I got this "power" but I am definitely a self-empowered woman. 

 

Anyway, I have wondered often (but not with enough motivation to pursue it) if it was the Dunning-Kruger effect and I just don't know what I don't know about female friendships. And perhaps I should educate myself and practice. But then life happens and I have things that I really love to do and only so much time in a day. It's not likely I'm going to change this unless someone gives me a really good reason. I'm open to hearing some here. 

[KeepOnGoing]

I never had problems with meeting new people after hitting puberty (guess sexual market value). On the other hand as a child my mother called me a savage because I cried when strangers were talking to me and I was very shy when I was meeting new kids - I was severely abused as a child. I had one good female friend (in my teens) but we don't live in the same country for many years now and the only thing that we still have in common is very special sense of humor. We have always been very different but now it even went more further. I usually had more male friends, most of them very intelligent guys. I tried to make some female friendships but it never worked out. I was a tomboy as a kid and I had stronger relationship with my father rather than with my mother. I've never been accepted by her neither by my older sister. Maybe this is a reason why I can't get into deeper relationship with women or maybe it is something else. Sometimes I wish I would have female friends but in the same when I look around I don't see anything interesting. Sometimes women try to get to know me better but I'm pretty quick in judging people and I just don't give them a chance. On the other hand I don't think I've ever met an interesting woman in real life. It all seems so trivial for me and since I don't have kids yet it feels like my brain works a little bit differently. I like people in general but very often I prefer to be alone so I can focus on doing something that interests me. Spending my free time with people that I don't have much in common seems to me like a waste of time.

[Mykaelous]

Dude here with mostly female friends. So this is definitely an outside perspective, but as you yourself feel alien to deep female companionship perhaps I can offer some theories.

I will take a leap and generalize females companions into two categories. The cognitively biased and the emotionally biased. You seem to be in the first camp(I would assume most female FDR listeners to be in this camp, while most women in the general populace are in the 2nd camp). The criteria you have for what is a meaningful relationship is different than most women. Think about the qualities that attracted you to your best friend(husband), how many of those qualities do your female friends share and value? I would suspect that the qualities that bond you and your husband may in fact be a cause of conflict when relating to emotionally biased friends. You may value truth while they may value loyalty. An example of this is the infamous "does this dress make me look fat?" question. Guessing by your statement "I'm not the kind of person you'd call if you were in need of emotional support " I would hazard a guess that you would opt for the truthful answer while most women would opt for the answer they believe their friend wants to hear. Answering honestly would make the emotionally biased woman feel alienated, while it would build trust with the cognitively biased women(although a cognitively biased woman is far less likely to ask such a question to begin with). If say you were to placate to their desires, while this may serve their feeling of trust and rapport towards you, it betrays who you are and thus damages your feelings of closeness with them. 

This is certainly a unique struggle for the cognitively biased woman. You look around and see women seemingly enjoying themselves laughing, smiling and lauding eachother's appearances and life events. It's easy to mistake such social posturing for real meaningful friendship. But ask yourself if you think that these women talk to each other about the same topics you and your husband discuss, or even the thoughts you think of when you are awake at night? Do they seriously wonder and consider things like "Is there a God? What is Truth? Is there life after death?" I am not saying they never consider such questions, but in my experience they don't dwell upon them for any considerable amount of time, nor are they compelled to. Just because your behavior/preferences are abnormal, that doesn't make them unhealthy, and if they work to reinforce your family unit they may be beneficial.

The difficulty for cognitively biased women to make friends among themselves is due to the effort required to maintain a friendship. Men have the incentive of potential access to female reproductive value by being friends and so will make a greater effort to meet and interact with cognitively biased woman. So it's easier for cognitively biased women to be friends with men, than for them to be friends with other cognitively biased women.
 

I am an alpha female for sure. I dominate a room just by walking in and being there. If I do have conversation, I will definitely be a prominent voice. Now that I am writing about this, there are other things that are coming to mind. Other women are intimidated by my very presence for the most part. I don't understand this but I am very aware of it. I don't know where I got this "power" but I am definitely a self-empowered woman. 

What you are describing is an Omega Female/Male. You are the independent outsider who stands her ground. To be an Alpha, you must have a clique of Beta's that attempt to gain your good will by imitating and following you.

[villagewisdom]

Had to look up Omega Female -- not a lot out there on the topic that was worth anything. It certainly makes sense that I am an outsider. 

[thecurrentyear]

It's been my experience that very many FDR women describe themselves in the same way. I'm not entirely sure why that is. Probably for a lot of the reasons cited above. However, much in the same way that a quality rational partner is worth doing the extra work to find, so too are same-sex friendships. Women in particular have a duty to the family to maintain social connectedness. This is important for so many reasons. One of the most important being the finding of quality mates for the children. Another would be for emergency help and regularly-scheduled companionship when the parents need a break from the kids or from each other.

 

There are just too many reasons to even list, and it boggles the mind to think we would give up on any decent connection beyond the family unit. How does your daughter make friends, or figure out HOW to make friends, without you as a model and a social connector for her?

 

I feel pretty disappointed in my own mother for not placing a priority on friends for herself, but mostly for me. And also for the way she spoke about her "inability" to make friends. That made it seem like an impossible task that I was alone in my quest to pursue. Overwhelming and depressing for a child. Children should not be left alone to navigate the world of relationships.

[KeepOnGoing]

I agree that it's important to have some kind of relationships outside the family unit but for me the most important is the quality of the relationships. Btw. When it comes to family it can go either way. The kids might have a lot of friends and some of them might like to have only few. It's good to teach them by an example but sometimes you just do what you can with what you've got. Like I said before I don't have kids yet so maybe I don't see things how they really are. My example: somehow I turned out distinctly different than my mother and my sister and many of my female cousins. We all come from similar disfinctional environment but I was the only one to get out of it in the probably best way possible (of course there is always room for improvement) so I'm pretty optimistic about my future parenting style. Kids are different and you just have to approach each case in different way.

[S1988]

I agree that it's important to have some kind of relationships outside the family unit but for me the most important is the quality of the relationships. Btw. When it comes to family it can go either way. The kids might have a lot of friends and some of them might like to have only few. It's good to teach them by an example but sometimes you just do what you can with what you've got. Like I said before I don't have kids yet so maybe I don't see things how they really are. My example: somehow I turned out distinctly different than my mother and my sister and many of my female cousins. We all come from similar disfinctional environment but I was the only one to get out of it in the probably best way possible (of course there is always room for improvement) so I'm pretty optimistic about my future parenting style. Kids are different and you just have to approach each case in different way.

 

Excellent point made, especially about kids who have a few friends. I can relate to that situation since I've been a loner since childhood mostly because I was an outcast who was picked on a lot. Even as recently as a few years ago, I was scolded for not being outgoing, which is part of the reason why I have no relationship with my mother or other family members. If some kids prefer to keep to themselves, don't see it as an issue that needs remedying; some are outgoing, and some are not, and that's fine.

 

Speaking of the importance of non-relative companions, this is something seniors should adhere to as well. There are some older people who think their adult children should be responsible for keeping them from being lonely. Adult children have the right to live their own lives, not be at their parent(s)' beck and call. This also relates to my mother who would act if she can't live without me when she wasn't scolding me. Her main companions are my older siblings, the golden kids.

[WaterBearHug]

It's taken me a bit to reply, thanks for the input.

 

On one hand I think I was in a moment where I was letting this be a bigger concern than it really was, but I'm glad I asked because I am feeling motivated to try a little harder.  I've always been a rather reserved person and while I don't think I'll ever be out singing karaoke or doing Mary Kay parties because those just really aren't my thing, I do need to push myself to get out of my comfort zone and put more effort into being a better friend.  The reason I think of myself as "not the kind of person you call for emotional support" is my discomfort at dealing with adults who are emotionally distressed.  I never know what to say or do, and I tend to not be as easily upset or emotionally expressive as most women.  I did have a friend call me a couple of months ago to chat about concerns she had about her son and she thanked me for that, but I feel like I probably handled it in more of a dude-like, problem solving sort of way than the "I just need someone to listen and understand" way that people are typically looking for when they are distressed.  I am happy with the level my friendships are currently at, and I don't think I'll be at the calling each other daily just to chat and telling each other our darkest secrets level, but I do need to work on myself as far as opening up more with people and trying harder to be available both emotionally and physically, by physically I mean making it more of a priority to spend time with them.


My husband and I actually have a fairly solid set of friends, we try to spend time together as much as we're all able to, we used to see each other maybe once a week or every other week but that slowed down in the last few months.  Our daughter is definitely exposed to social situations and plenty of different people.  We're fortunate to have one couple that is like family to us in that we can call them if we ever need anything and they can do the same, though we don't do it often, they are good people that we know will have our backs.  The wife is the only person outside of maybe two family members that we would trust to ever watch our daughter for a couple hours if we wind up needing it.  That's another thing I have a hard time relating to other women with, I'm sure eventually I'll reach the point where I need a break, but I genuinely enjoy doing the wife and mom thing and don't feel like I need to "get away" from it all.  Maybe it's because I lucked out in who I married and that we only have a 2 year old so far, but I don't feel "drug down" by wife or motherhood.  My "break" is in the morning before everyone is awake and my daughter's nap time, those are the times I get to enjoy working on a craft, reading or listening to podcasts/youtubers while I catch up on whatever needs to be done around here.  If I get the point where I need a break from my family I'll probably prefer to do something alone, rather than seek out companionship, going to do "girls night" seems like it would be more exhausting than refreshing.  

I'm careful not to put myself down in front of my daughter, the last thing I want to do is give her a complex where she thinks that she's inherited social ineptness or any other "flaws" from me.  I also had a rather depressing childhood living with a grandmother who was constantly stressed, insecure and anxious in social situations (though she seemed to try to make up for it by being over the top friendly to the point where it seemed fake) and eventually got to the point where she stopped seeing almost all her friends and wouldn't answer the phone when they called, which they eventually quit doing.  I don't want to push my daughter too hard to be a social butterfly if she doesn't want to be, in many ways I was pushed while I was growing up and it made me more uncomfortable and dig in deeper, but I do want to do what I can to give her opportunities to make friends and pursue interests so she can have a well-rounded and full life.  So far our daughter seems to be very empathetic, if a bit shy, and she opens up to people and enjoys them once she has time to warm up to them.  Between peaceful parenting, having a healthy marriage and having a handful of  solid family and friends that we enjoy spending time with, I think she'll be fine as far as learning about how to navigate the world of people.  She's already got a better start than I did as far as parenting goes, so she'll hopefully not face the same issues I had growing up in emotional chaos and insecurity.

[Mykaelous]

Thinking about this more and after reading some of the comments I want to put a thought out there.

Given the choice, would you rather do the hard work of figuring this issue out or leave it up to your daughter to "wonder if there is something "wrong" with me because I'm just not good at relating to women."

Your child will inherit that disconcerting feeling if you are unable to find an answer. I know in my experience of having a father who wasn't very social that it was no coincidence that both my brother and I were loners throughout school. We lacked an effective model of how to interact with other men and how to pick good friends. In my brothers case he attempted suicide, in my case I fumed and considered committing violence and possible suicide at times due to feeling lonely. Ultimately this drove me toward a search for self-knowledge and has defined a great part of my life. Fortunately that search has landed me here and I now have quality relationships with quality people and my children will model that. Keep in mind that having low quality friends is likely as destructive as having no friends, because it will lead your children to select low quality friends for themselves. It's amazing how much of ourselves we model after our parents.

[_LiveFree_]

what effects did your relationship with your grandmother have on you?

[neeeel]

Excellent point made, especially about kids who have a few friends. I can relate to that situation since I've been a loner since childhood mostly because I was an outcast who was picked on a lot. Even as recently as a few years ago, I was scolded for not being outgoing, which is part of the reason why I have no relationship with my mother or other family members. If some kids prefer to keep to themselves, don't see it as an issue that needs remedying; some are outgoing, and some are not, and that's fine.

 

There is a difference between choosing to have few friends, and being unable or unwilling to make friends because of how relationships were for you when you were small. I dont think anyone is born a "loner". I would imagine that pretty much all children would not choose to have no friends

[S1988]

There is a difference between choosing to have few friends, and being unable or unwilling to make friends because of how relationships were for you when you were small. I dont think anyone is born a "loner". I would imagine that pretty much all children would not choose to have no friends

 

Actually, it's a bit of both for me. I have few friends by choice and because having a loner lifestyle protects me from bullies and users. As a result, I haven't been in a toxic relationship for two years. I admit, I'm a bit of an oddball, and that subjects me to derision and judgment. So, I have two choices: be someone I'm not or find a way where I can be myself, and for me, a loner lifestyle is the solution.

 

I have one friend in a different state, and that's good enough for me. It'll be stressful and annoying for me to have many friends who knock on my door and expect me to hang out with them or do favors for them every day. Going days without speaking to someone doesn't bother me, but it may bother someone who's extroverted.

 

People have been trying to "fix" me for years. When I was reading a book on a bus trip at 12 years old, a chaperone sat and kid next to me so I could have company, even when I didn't care to. In my high school freshman math class, my teacher had me stay after school to discuss my quiet behavior. Two years later, my mother threatened to take me to get help when I told her I sat alone at lunch. Last year, I had a neighbor who scolded me for my loner lifestyle, but wouldn't leave me alone when she needed something. Thank goodness she moved away.

 

My point is, being a loner isn't equivalent to evil or an issue needing changing, and being outgoing isn't "better." They're just different. It even irks me when some people say most serial killers are loners, and that isn't the case. Many have families and outgoing personalities. I haven't hurt anyone and don't want to; I just want my space. That's just as bad as wanting an outgoing person to be quieter. Loud or quiet isn't better or worse; it just is.

[neeeel]

Actually, it's a bit of both for me. I have few friends by choice and because having a loner lifestyle protects me from bullies and users. As a result, I haven't been in a toxic relationship for two years. I admit, I'm a bit of an oddball, and that subjects me to derision and judgment. So, I have two choices: be someone I'm not or find a way where I can be myself, and for me, a loner lifestyle is the solution.

 

I have one friend in a different state, and that's good enough for me. It'll be stressful and annoying for me to have many friends who knock on my door and expect me to hang out with them or do favors for them every day. Going days without speaking to someone doesn't bother me, but it may bother someone who's extroverted.

 

People have been trying to "fix" me for years. When I was reading a book on a bus trip at 12 years old, a chaperone sat and kid next to me so I could have company, even when I didn't care to. In my high school freshman math class, my teacher had me stay after school to discuss my quiet behavior. Two years later, my mother threatened to take me to get help when I told her I sat alone at lunch. Last year, I had a neighbor who scolded me for my loner lifestyle, but wouldn't leave me alone when she needed something. Thank goodness she moved away.

 

My point is, being a loner isn't equivalent to evil or an issue needing changing, and being outgoing isn't "better." They're just different. It even irks me when some people say most serial killers are loners, and that isn't the case. Many have families and outgoing personalities. I haven't hurt anyone and don't want to; I just want my space. That's just as bad as wanting an outgoing person to be quieter. Loud or quiet isn't better or worse, it just is.

 

I think you missed my point, which was that being a loner isnt a "natural" state, that theres a difference between appreciating and enjoying time on your own to do stuff, and feeling alone in a crowd, being scared around people, keeping yourself isolated and alone. The first isnt a "loner" , the second is. My assertion is that you are only a loner because of the way you were treated growing up.

[S1988]

I think you missed my point, which was that being a loner isnt a "natural" state, that theres a difference between appreciating and enjoying time on your own to do stuff, and feeling alone in a crowd, being scared around people, keeping yourself isolated and alone. The first isnt a "loner" , the second is. My assertion is that you are only a loner because of the way you were treated growing up.

 

You're right; my childhood did play a role in my introverted personality, and I do carry some scars from those hurts. However, I'm not agoraphobic. I have no problem leaving my home to run errands, and I don't feel lonely. I like being alone, and it doesn't bother me that I don't have lots of friends. Perhaps I'm an odd exception to this like I am to a lot of things.

[WaterBearHug]

what effects did your relationship with your grandmother have on you?

I probably haven't unpacked all the effects that relationship has had on me. They weren't good effects, that's for sure. It seems like when parents are either unwilling or incapable of raising their own children, their children wind up in the care of the same people who most likely screwed them up.

 

My grandmother had mental and emotional problems that went unaddressed for a long time. I think I was in middle school when she finally went into the hospital thinking she was having a heart attack but it turned out to just be really bad stress/panic attack and they put her on an anxiety medication. My aunt who sought therapy quit a ways into adulthood had a therapist tell her that it sounded like my grandmother was a narcissist, something that I hadn't really thought of at the time (I was in my late teens when my aunt shared this with me) because my grandmother was always trying to do things for other people and tried very hard to be "humble" and I thought of narcissists as very selfish and grandiose. In hindsight that was her version of being "wonderful", she made it a point to not be bejeweled and decked out in fancy clothes, she always gave of our families time and money to people because it made her feel good about herself and she liked the attention and praise she got from it. She was accepting, loving and helpful to some of the biggest losers, but when her own children were struggling with drug addiction and having a hard time she had little sympathy for them, only outrage and acting as though she'd been wronged. Well, there was one uncle who she would always bend over backwards to help, no matter how much he lied to her and took from her, she had a special relationship with him and he'd get a free pass on things that my mom or others never would, but I think she almost enjoyed having him around to complain about and tell everyone how much she was doing for him, and in doing so she did him no favors because he never really grew up.

 

You couldn't have an opinion of your own that conflicted with hers without her taking it as a personal assault. You couldn't just talk to her about much, she was prone to being extremely defensive and would either be hysterical or shut down and give the silent treatment. My grandfather would try to discuss finances with me and prior to that with my mom and her siblings, the importance of not getting into debt and budgeting and so on, and my grandmother would always jump in with a huff "Money isn't everything!" sort of attitude that made it very difficult for him. When I got to be about preteen and well into my teen years I recall being scolded for something as simple as pushing a loose lock of hair behind my hair before entering a store with my grandmother, she would say "Oh, quit being so self-conscious" which would then make me feel even more self-conscious, like, was everyone in the store really watching me that closely and going to judge me for trying to keep my hair out of my face? It was her own self-consciousness being projected onto me, but I was too naive to know that at the time. She would get upset with me if I didn't notice and get excited over every little thing, like one day when I didn't see the new flowers she planted in the front yard on my walk from the school bus into the house. I still remember one instance where she just huffed and puffed and said "You're just like you're grandfather!" (as if that were an insult, I actually admired my grandfather) because I was tired and distracted from being at school all day and didn't throw a ticker tape parade for her new flowers that I hadn't noticed out of the corner of my eye.

 

She was a miserable person who only seemed to like company if they were also miserable, after I'd started dating my husband and was obviously quite happy, she would continue to bring up my past relationship with a guy that wasn't so great and any negative thing under the sun and we'd "talk and talk" while I was there doing laundry and I'd be in tears at some time before I left. She would want to sit there and talk about my grandfather and other people she resented and all the wrongs that had ever been done. Also, even though she claimed to like my now husband and we'd been dating for quite awhile and doing well together, she would continue to bring up a boy I dated for a couple years in high school that she really liked and how sure she was that he still loved me. This was batshit crazy, it had been years since I dated this young man and I'm sure he'd moved on to bigger and better things, but I think she'd been hoping that I'd marry him because he was from a family that was wealthy and he seemed like he was going to be financially successful himself, so maybe she was banking on that in her old age.

 

Anyway, this post is going to be a mess, but one example of the effect my grandmother had on me was when I was learning to drive and eventually got my license. When I drove with my grandmother in the car I was nervous, and she had told my grandfather (who went off to work out of town jobs when I was in my early teens and separated from her when I was about 15) that I was a bad driver and just not getting it. My grandfather had me drive him to my great grandmothers house that was a good 20 or 30 minutes away and he was surprised because I did really well, I think it helped that he was calm and he gave me clear instructions on where to go. Driving was something I was afraid of clear into my mid 20s. I could do it, but I was always fearful. I finally got my license when I was a senior in high school, after failing the test 3 times because I was so nervous that I made stupid mistakes, because I was so aware of the test giver next to me and for some reason it just sapped my confidence and made me second guess myself. When I finally got my license I would drive to school and to a couple of friends houses, but I was still so afraid of driving that I would always have a friend do the driving if I had a choice. Eventually I got a job that required driving people places so I had to get over it, but it's something that definitely hindered me for awhile and caused me yet more self-consciousness.

 

I think the reason I tended to gravitate more towards males is that I didn't have a mother past the age of about 5 or 6, my mother had drug and alcohol abuse problems and neither she nor my grandmother were good role models and I didn't have respect for them. My grandfather was the person I would seek out to spend time with when he was home from work and tried to learn the most from as a child. I had a poor image of women, I thought of them as catty, unreasonable, hysterical, judgmental, interested in silly and shallow things, etc.

 

My grandmother is someone I used to obsess over, I'd wonder why she was the way she was, how much her stupidity was real and how much was a phony because it was easier to play the victim, how she could say and do the things she'd do to the people she was supposed to love and just deny it and downplay it. We were supposed to walk on eggshells with her in order to not set her off, but she could say some of the most hurtful things and just go "What did I dooo? What did I saaay? I don't understand why you're so upset with mee!" How much control did she honestly have over her behavior, and so on. Thankfully I gave it up and don't dwell on her anymore, I don't see her or talk to her often (sometimes years go by) but when I do I am able to sort of laugh it off and just enjoy the show she puts on rather than get upset or take anything to heart. I felt sort of sorry for her because her kids and grandkids don't want much to do with her, but reminded myself that she did this to herself, she resented us all so much and did not try to hide it. She'd often say if she could do it all over again she wouldn't have had kids, she always just wanted to be free of her burdens and "drama" (nevermind that she was a source of so much drama herself) so now she's living alone with her cats and has some nice neighbors that help her run errands. I think she sees my mom and aunt maybe once a month or less, they all live in the same area on the other side of the state. I used to feel guilt over not trying harder to talk to her, but the phone works both ways and I don't think either of us has anything valuable to be gained from attempting to have what can only amount to a shallow relationship.

 

Anyway, entirely too long story short, I think as a result of my relationship with my grandmother I grew up very self-conscious, anxious, afraid, feeling incapable and like I needed someone to rescue and take care of me rather than learning to be capable and do things for myself, I was depressed and still dealt with bouts of it a few years into my relationship with my husband, but I managed to work my way out of that mainly through things like reading cognitive behavioral therapy books and doing the practices in them, and having a sane, stable and loving person in my life who was the right amount of loving me as I was and giving me the gentle pushes I needed to get over my fears and learn that I was indeed capable.

 

ETA: A big effect I forgot to mention was a lack of communication skills, this became especially problematic when I began having romantic relationships. Once again grateful to my husband who was able to stick it out through those early years when I thought he was just supposed to be able to read my mind and "fix" things that he didn't know were "wrong" and often internal issues I had that he had literally no control over.

[WaterBearHug]

Actually, it's a bit of both for me. I have few friends by choice and because having a loner lifestyle protects me from bullies and users. As a result, I haven't been in a toxic relationship for two years. I admit, I'm a bit of an oddball, and that subjects me to derision and judgment. So, I have two choices: be someone I'm not or find a way where I can be myself, and for me, a loner lifestyle is the solution.

 

I have one friend in a different state, and that's good enough for me. It'll be stressful and annoying for me to have many friends who knock on my door and expect me to hang out with them or do favors for them every day. Going days without speaking to someone doesn't bother me, but it may bother someone who's extroverted.

 

People have been trying to "fix" me for years. When I was reading a book on a bus trip at 12 years old, a chaperone sat and kid next to me so I could have company, even when I didn't care to. In my high school freshman math class, my teacher had me stay after school to discuss my quiet behavior. Two years later, my mother threatened to take me to get help when I told her I sat alone at lunch. Last year, I had a neighbor who scolded me for my loner lifestyle, but wouldn't leave me alone when she needed something. Thank goodness she moved away.

 

My point is, being a loner isn't equivalent to evil or an issue needing changing, and being outgoing isn't "better." They're just different. It even irks me when some people say most serial killers are loners, and that isn't the case. Many have families and outgoing personalities. I haven't hurt anyone and don't want to; I just want my space. That's just as bad as wanting an outgoing person to be quieter. Loud or quiet isn't better or worse; it just is.

 

I agree, there is nothing wrong with being introverted.  Being outgoing might mean someone has more relationships, but it doesn't mean those relationships will be of any better quality than an introverts handful of relationships.  I had more I wanted to say but I have a 2 year old kissing my arm and wanting "up" so it's going to have to wait.

[_LiveFree_]

*snip

 

Wow! Thank you for that response! I'm no therapist, but if I were I'd think that your grandmother is likely a good starting point in unraveling your fear of relationships with women. You said you've read some CBT books. Have you tried Internal Family Systems Therapy (IFS)? If not, I'd highly recommend it. 

 

http://www.selfleadership.org/

 

Again, not a therapist, but it seems like you already know why you have trouble with relationships with women. However, you may not know how to process it and move past it. Because it's wrapped up with your grandmother and mother, it likely manifests as this mind-numbing fog. IFS is the best way I know how to work with this. 

 

 

One thing that stood out to me is you said that you are not the kind of woman who her friends would call for emotional support. Did you have a woman in your life you could call for emotional support when you were growing up? Do you see similarities with your grandmother's relationships with women and your own? Your lives are different so it won't be a 1 to 1 comparison, but maybe some similarities. If your husband died, would you become a cat lady? (awful thought I know, but let's light some fire under this thing!)

[S1988]

WaterBearHug, what do you think about getting a pen pal? I know it's not the same as an in-person friendship, but it's a start. Perhaps if the friendship is deep enough, you both can meet in person.

 

Though I'm a loner for the most part, having a pen pal was a nice experience for me, even though my pen pal was in prison. I communicated with him back when I was staying with my mother and when I had roommates, and he was very supportive, especially since both of those situations were very toxic. I don't speak with him anymore because he was released early, and all I can do now is hope for the best for him. Maybe you can seek out a pen pal, too.

[WaterBearHug]

Wow! Thank you for that response! I'm no therapist, but if I were I'd think that your grandmother is likely a good starting point in unraveling your fear of relationships with women. You said you've read some CBT books. Have you tried Internal Family Systems Therapy (IFS)? If not, I'd highly recommend it. 

 

http://www.selfleadership.org/

 

Again, not a therapist, but it seems like you already know why you have trouble with relationships with women. However, you may not know how to process it and move past it. Because it's wrapped up with your grandmother and mother, it likely manifests as this mind-numbing fog. IFS is the best way I know how to work with this. 

 

 

One thing that stood out to me is you said that you are not the kind of woman who her friends would call for emotional support. Did you have a woman in your life you could call for emotional support when you were growing up? Do you see similarities with your grandmother's relationships with women and your own? Your lives are different so it won't be a 1 to 1 comparison, but maybe some similarities. If your husband died, would you become a cat lady? (awful thought I know, but let's light some fire under this thing!)

 

I don't have much time to reply right now because some of my in laws will be visiting soon and we're having a little party that I need to prepare for, but I'll give it a quick go.

 

I hadn't heard of IFS, thanks for the suggestion I'll check it out.

 

The short answer to whether I had any women in my life to rely on for emotional support is no, though I might have had some that I just didn't utilize because I was a "keep to myselfer" who didn't try to seek that support out or take advantage of it when it was available.  

 

I don't think I'll be a crazy cat lady, I do have some good people in my life besides my husband.  I don't know that I'd ever remarry if anything happened to him, he's a tough act to follow, but I would have my in laws, my child (possibly children if we have another one in the near future) and would likely have some friends to keep me grounded in reality.  My friends aren't bad, I'm just not good at the lady thing, but I'd still be able to enjoy spending time with them doing activities, even if I might not be comfortable talking openly and frankly about my world views and so on.  I would likely seek out more like minded friends, I already plan to, but as an introvert I sometimes feel like the people I already have in my life are more than enough to try to juggle, and the idea of adding more people and effort to the mix feels a little daunting.  I have nothing against cats, I love animals in general, but there is no way I'd let my life and home be taken over by pets of any kind, I'm not the "animals are better than people" type, in spite of being raised the majority of my childhood by one.  I have a friend who lives with his mom and they have a LOT of cats both indoors and out and it's insane, but that's a story for another day.  

 

Anyway, already been typing longer than I'd planned, gotta go help a toddler finish eating and get our shit together

[WaterBearHug]

WaterBearHug, what do you think about getting a pen pal? I know it's not the same as an in-person friendship, but it's a start. Perhaps if the friendship is deep enough, you both can meet in person.

 

Though I'm a loner for the most part, having a pen pal was a nice experience for me, even though my pen pal was in prison. I communicated with him back when I was staying with my mother and when I had roommates, and he was very supportive, especially since both of those situations were very toxic. I don't speak with him anymore because he was released early, and all I can do now is hope for the best for him. Maybe you can seek out a pen pal, too.

I haven't considered a pen pal, but I have been tempted to accept some of the friends requests on facebook from women in the FDR group and see where that goes.

[_LiveFree_]

I don't have much time to reply right now because some of my in laws will be visiting soon and we're having a little party that I need to prepare for, but I'll give it a quick go.

 

I hadn't heard of IFS, thanks for the suggestion I'll check it out.

 

The short answer to whether I had any women in my life to rely on for emotional support is no, though I might have had some that I just didn't utilize because I was a "keep to myselfer" who didn't try to seek that support out or take advantage of it when it was available.

 

I don't think I'll be a crazy cat lady, I do have some good people in my life besides my husband. I don't know that I'd ever remarry if anything happened to him, he's a tough act to follow, but I would have my in laws, my child (possibly children if we have another one in the near future) and would likely have some friends to keep me grounded in reality. My friends aren't bad, I'm just not good at the lady thing, but I'd still be able to enjoy spending time with them doing activities, even if I might not be comfortable talking openly and frankly about my world views and so on. I would likely seek out more like minded friends, I already plan to, but as an introvert I sometimes feel like the people I already have in my life are more than enough to try to juggle, and the idea of adding more people and effort to the mix feels a little daunting. I have nothing against cats, I love animals in general, but there is no way I'd let my life and home be taken over by pets of any kind, I'm not the "animals are better than people" type, in spite of being raised the majority of my childhood by one. I have a friend who lives with his mom and they have a LOT of cats both indoors and out and it's insane, but that's a story for another day.

 

Anyway, already been typing longer than I'd planned, gotta go help a toddler finish eating and get our shit together

Hey thanks again

 

Do you realize you use "I'm an introvert," as an excuse as to why you don't like opening up to people. "Introvert" doesn't mean you're not a people person, it means you are internally motivated and require alone time with yourself to be happy. It has nothing to do with fear of certain relationships.

 

You tend to use this erroneous conclusion about yourself in order to avoid the truth of how you feel. You've drawn a conclusion about yourself that you use as a shield against outside intrusion into your heart.

 

Is this ringing true with you?

[meetjoeblack]

Do any other women here find it hard to befriend other women in a meaningful way?

 

I have some friends that are lovely people, but I often feel like the odd man out because they all seem so close to one another and I'm just not part of it. It's actually a relief to not be expected to join in for girls night outs, but I wonder if there is something "wrong" with me because I'm just not good at relating to women about things and I'm not the kind of person you'd call if you were in need of emotional support which seems to be a big thing women use to bond over. I've always been pretty introverted and am not the kind of woman who wants to go out and "cut loose" so I wonder if my reservation is off putting for other women.

 

I'm content with my husband being my best friend, the one I confide in and can be wholly myself around, but I have a young daughter and am starting to become concerned that I'm going to do her a disservice by not being able to model how to make and maintain strong relationships with other women. This concern was sparked by an acquaintance last night who seems to be very good at maintaining quite a few very strong female friendships mentioning how she's teaching her daughter the importance of developing good friendships with other girls because these friends she makes at her age can be a lifelong asset. I was sitting there thinking that the one good female friend I had as a teen isn't really a part of my life anymore, we grew apart quickly after high school graduation and were sort of an "odd couple" to begin with and she often teased me and tried to push me to "come out of my shell" and be something I'm just not.

 

I feel fulfilled and happy, all I honestly want or feel I need as far as close relationships go is my husband and my child, would you say that is unhealthy in some way?

 

I have noticed that my guy friends have been who I grew up with not to mention the new friends I make regularly. With my lady friends, many have few friends, are catty with one another, and there is a lack of friendship on a long enough time line. I don't know why this is but it is what I seen be it in my workplace, in my social circle, and just been the experience I have seen. Also, in relationships, many girls just bail on their friends because of a bf and when it ends, they no longer have anything. As a guy, I make the time for my buddies and they do same for me.

 

I think maybe going out more, extending more invites to other women, and just getting use to meeting new people would be a great start. Furthermore, reconnecting with old friends, a message online from a social media platform or a phone call you have held off making with an old friend. What have you got to lose?

[WaterBearHug]

Hey thanks again

 

Do you realize you use "I'm an introvert," as an excuse as to why you don't like opening up to people. "Introvert" doesn't mean you're not a people person, it means you are internally motivated and require alone time with yourself to be happy. It has nothing to do with fear of certain relationships.

 

You tend to use this erroneous conclusion about yourself in order to avoid the truth of how you feel. You've drawn a conclusion about yourself that you use as a shield against outside intrusion into your heart.

 

Is this ringing true with you?

Oh my god yes.  I think I've almost always had a tendency to be rather distant from people (I just chalked it up to being shy) and I absolutely think it's a way of protecting myself.  I enjoy time to myself and feel like it helps recharge me, being around too many people for too long feels exhausting, but maybe part of the reason I find it so draining is that I don't feel as secure in myself as I assume I now am (I've come a long way from where I started, so by comparison I likely assumed I was doing well) and it's an effort to attempt to socialize and share myself with others while at the same time avoiding vulnerability and subconsciously and sometimes consciously second guessing what I do and say and how it's perceived by those around me.  It's easier to blame my lack of closeness to people, even people I consider to be very good friends, on my introversion, when it's really being caused by other things that I need to dig into and examine further.

[_LiveFree_]

Oh my god yes.  I think I've almost always had a tendency to be rather distant from people (I just chalked it up to being shy) and I absolutely think it's a way of protecting myself.  I enjoy time to myself and feel like it helps recharge me, being around too many people for too long feels exhausting, but maybe part of the reason I find it so draining is that I don't feel as secure in myself as I assume I now am (I've come a long way from where I started, so by comparison I likely assumed I was doing well) and it's an effort to attempt to socialize and share myself with others while at the same time avoiding vulnerability and subconsciously and sometimes consciously second guessing what I do and say and how it's perceived by those around me.  It's easier to blame my lack of closeness to people, even people I consider to be very good friends, on my introversion, when it's really being caused by other things that I need to dig into and examine further.

 

You and I are very much alike in this respect 

 

Something that has helped me a bit is to understand that I do need alone time and to not feel negative about that. Spending time with my girlfriend is the most joyous thing I've experienced and continue to experience in my life. But I do need time to myself, too. By honoring that I am able to recharge and make the time I spend with her that much higher in quality. It's very much about maintaining myself and maintaining a balance in our relationship. She's very much an extrovert who can spend all day around others and be completely content. Without my self-awareness and honesty with her, she would likely perceive me as pulling away at times. 

 

With all that said, it doesn't mean you don't have things to dig deeper into. It's important to be able to separate these two, as difficult as it can be. 

[violet]

I'm very much like this as well. I'm currently in a place where I don't want to share myself with other people too much because I feel vulnerable (on an emotional level). I'm also quite an introverted, shy person. Part of it might also be the fact that I seem to have a different point a view than other women my age - at least around where I live. But overall, I would argue that it's a choice on my part. My boyfriend is enough for now. Trying to maintain other relationships at the moment seems like it would require too much energy.

 

I can imagine very much enjoying deep friendships with other women. As an introvert, I would be unlikely to have very many of these relationships though - if I even tried. I think expanding your social circle can be a positive thing if it fits with your life and your needs. I expect I'd try harder if my life was in a more settled place. I sometimes feel lonely without a community around me. I'm rather isolated.

 

I don't think the way you are is unhealthy. But it might not be a bad idea to socialize more if you can see value in it.

[gneiss81]

This is a very interesting thread and one that has been on my mind lately. I am 35 year old woman from New Zealand and am also in the process of deciding what to do about my lack of strong female relationships (or any very strong relationships now that I have split up with my partner of 5 years).  I did not have a wide range of close friends at high school, I just chose a few very smart, deep and engaging women who I deeply connected with.  When they got boyfriends or moved away I was devastated.  I have realised that I was trying to fill the void of my own mother's lack of connection to me with the friendship of other women, to find the perfect 'mother' in my friendships, an empathetic, smart, wise, understanding friend with complete loyalty. Impossible.  I have realised that I have impossible standards for my friends.  This is not going to work well for me in life. I also notice that I have no long term friendships really, (apart from one), so am making a decision to nurture and grow long term relationships with quality people.

 

For me this feels a bit weird, to be so intentional about it, but I see it as the path to richness and connection. Also if I continue just taking all my emotional sustenance from my boyfriend at the time, and pouring all of my emotional resources into him, it's too much, it's overwhelming and makes me too dependent on my partner.  It can also be draining for my partner.  It seems though that the writer of this thread WaterBearHug has a good relationship with her partner which fulfills all of her emotional needs.  This however will leave her vulnerable in old age if she is alone due to death of her partner.  I agree that modelling good friendships is important for one's children.  My mother was socially awkward for a large part of my childhood and did not model making friends  I have decided to undo this patterning and learn to form friendships with people without requiring them to be perfect. Well that's quite a rant, but this is an interesting topic!