Legitimate Guilt or Historical Trauma?

[Pod]

Hi all. 
 
I would appreciate some perspective from other virtue-minded people on an internal struggle I'm dealing with regarding an accident with a firearm.  As a foreword to the topic, I've reported my incident in full to my local police and it carries with it no illegality.  
 
A year ago I had an accidental discharge with my carry pistol in my room and the projectile shot through my roof/wall and up into the night.  It was at a 45 degree angle so it wasn't going to hit anything with full power, but where it came down is where it could have done damage. 
 
The minute it happened I got into my car and drove down into the area where it would have landed, and there was no commotion.  What I should have done that night was contact the police immediately, but I didn't due to my fear of my father's anger and whatever consequences might accrue legally (again, the police now know and it carries no illegality). 
 
After a week or two I informed my parents about it and since no police came they decided to just seal up the hole. 
 
About 8 months passed and it hadn't crossed my mind.  I'd landed a job and was building my assets up to finally move out.  Everything was going great.  One night after work I'd bought some strong alcohol (I don't drink) and the next morning I thought I had alcohol poisoning.  I rushed myself to the ER and it turned out I would be fine.  When I told my folks they seemed not to be too bothered by it. 
 
That night I had two dreams, one where I was late for work and was probably fired, told my parents, and they turned a cold shoulder to me saying I deserved it, causing me to have a meltdown. 
 
The second was where I was watching myself fire a rifle into my back woods accompanied by a friend I used to know.  When I went from 3rd to 1st person I stopped in horror and rushed into the woods to make sure nobody was hurt.  I emerged in a parking lot where cars and walls were riddled with holes and people were coming out all angry and yelling at me.  I kept searching to make sure at least nobody was hit but crowds of angry people just swarmed me. 
 
From the minute I woke up I was overwhelmed with guilt and fear at what I'd done.  After vigorously analyzing my two dreams and the circumstances surrounding, I decided to follow my gut which was telling me to report what happened and take full responsibility. 
 
I went to the cops, told them every detail, and all they did was make a report (since nobody reported anything). 
 
I thought the fear of the cops was what was bothering me, but after I cleared it up with them, the only thing that disappeared was the fear.  The guilt still sticks and it feels like something is still wrong.  I still feel it in the bottom of my stomach right now, though it's not debilitating. 
 
 
So... how do you perceive my guilt from an outsider's perspective? 
 
I would really really appreciate some help with this as I have nobody in my life right now I can really explore this with, and the one thing I want in life is to be a good person.  This could be my true self pointing me in the direction of virtue, or historical trauma, and that's what I feel I need to figure out.

[Iron Horse]

Reads to me like hypochondria and low self esteem.  I suggest rebuilding your confidence, return to shooting and CCing.  You are very lucky that nobody was injured by your ND. 

[Matthew Ed Moran]

If the bullet had hit someone and injured them, then your parents, the police, the victim and his/her family all easily could have ganged up against you. Your parents would have tried to convince everyone in the scenario, including you, that they had no responsibility for your actions. Seeing your vulnerability as a potential source suffering for them, they would have tried to blame you for what you were exposed to in their parenting that led to this point.

 

This would have had such a drastic negative effect on you, with no one else in your life to tell you how you were being made a scapegoat by your parents for their irresponsibility and neglect, to isolate from yourself to the point of despair. You would have loathed yourself because everyone would have told you this mistake was isolated and easily avoidable, and had no connection to anything that was done in the past to you. 

 

They wouldn't have even needed to say anything to you to do this. Just their silence would have communicated to you that you were responsible for the consequences of their past wrongdoing, and as punishment you had to suffer shame for their fear that you would act as they taught you.

[Pod]

@Matthew Ed Moran

 

First off thanks for your response.  I like how concise you are. 

 

You're right that they would have ganged up against me. I know that because before I went to the township, I told my parents about it and they advised I let it lie.  The point wasn't about avoiding legal consequences, it was about taking responsibility for what I had done no matter what the consequences.  

 

Them being the people they are, they were worried about looking bad and being inconvenienced while I was worried about doing what was right.  I felt total isolation just like you referenced.  The prospect of the world coming down on me scared me into hiding (though if someone was hurt I would have taken responsibility).

 

Curious though, how did you come to the conclusion about the isolation?  I'm guessing the dreams and my folk's dis-concern with the alcohol thing?

[_LiveFree_]

Can you talk with a therapist? Sounds like you've got a lot going on inside.

[Pod]

Can you talk with a therapist? Sounds like you've got a lot going on inside.

 

That's a priority but not number one right now. I think moving out and getting a full time would do me best.  I thought about it and I think that distancing myself from my abusers would help me clear my mind and think.  I know the "defooing" process is gonna be riddle with fear and vivid dreams so I think through vigorous self-analysis I can come to a cleaner conclusion about what my feelings are.

 

I hope that made sense cuz this stuff can get really messy when I try to put it into words. 

 

Also, I'd like to know what you personally think would be the right thing to do in this situation.  Just off the top of your head if you could. 

[Rventurelli]

To be honest, you should just be more careful, but there is nothing really to feel guilty about. I had myself a negligent discharge only once, since I was handling the firearm safely in every other regard, nothing happened. So I learned from the experience.

What happened was that I was in the range with a rifle and my Smith & Wesson Model 686 revolver. I always shoot revolvers in single action. I had one bullet misfire, but my automatic reaction is already to cock the hammer regardless, unless it is supposed to be the last round in the cylinder. With the barrel downrange I tried to push the cylinder out to put more bullets in but ended up touching the trigger. Since the hammer was already cocked, the next round chambered and fired. I felt very stupid and guilty, but nothing really happened. Lesson learned: never try to remove the cylinder with the hammer cocked. (Otherwise revolvers have really heavy trigger pulls, so this kind of thing does not happen)

[Pod]

@Rventurelli

 

I don't feel guilt about the accidental discharge itself, but rather that there could be damage out there somewhere that someone hasn't discovered yet.  I would at least want to exhaust every reasonable method of trying to remedy the situation via talking to residents (which I've tried and got the cops called on me because of a misunderstanding) or asking for some advice from the local police.  I just have this tightness in my chest that something more has to be done on my end or else this is going to feel like one of those unforgivable things that is going to stop me from achieving virtue, if that makes sense. 

[Danske]

You saw going to the police about this as the moral thing to do? Even when you know you hit no-one?

[Pod]

You saw going to the police about this as the moral thing to do? Even when you know you hit no-one?

 

It was more a thing about getting total closure on my end that I hadn't damaged anything or hurt anyone.  Closure feels like the right thing to strive for.   As much as I can.

[Spenc]

Maybe tell us more about this friend that was in your dream...When were you friends?  Were you true friends, as in having important conversations, or just a guy you did sports and video games with?  How satisfied with your life were you at that point in time?  How was your relationship with your parents at the time?  Did he have a particular role in helping you through a tough time or anything?  Why aren't you friends anymore? 

 

Also, why did you decide to purchase and drink strong alcohol when you're not a drinker?  I'm assuming vodka, rum, or something of that nature that is 40% alcohol and can get a non-drinker pissed on just a few ounces.....

 

Also, for what purpose do you own a gun?  Safety, hunting, tradition, sport shooting?  Is it common with your family/men to own and shoot guns?  When did you learn?  Who taught you?  Who do you shoot with?  etc....

[Pod]

@Spenc

 

I was friends with him 8 years and it ended about 8 months ago.  He and I were both set on living philosophically and he was the only person in my life I could talk about this stuff with. He was probably the truest friend I ever had and I knew him for 8 years.

 

Life satisfaction back then was getting better because of finding FDR, but I was trimming my relationship tree so it was really stressful.  As for my relationship with mom and dad, bad, and I was addressing it with them to no avail.  I talked to my friend about it all the time, as he was doing it with his own relationships too.  He wasn't as deep into the books and podcasts as I was though.

 

He and I eventually stopped seeing each other because of a girl in his life that these convos were coming into conflict with.  The decision was mine though. 

 

I bought the booze because I wanted something to help me deal with being in this house after wanting to leave for months.  And yes it was Vodka. 

 

I own a few guns because I've always loved them since I was a kid.  My father hates guns with a passion.  It's a hobby I had to totally pursue myself. 

[Matthew Ed Moran]

That's a priority but not number one right now. I think moving out and getting a full time would do me best.  I thought about it and I think that distancing myself from my abusers would help me clear my mind and think.  I know the "defooing" process is gonna be riddle with fear and vivid dreams so I think through vigorous self-analysis I can come to a cleaner conclusion about what my feelings are.

 

Your certainty regarding your priorities may be correct, but I am not sure how you know.

 

There is frankly no such thing as distance from your abusers. You have probably spent about 20 years with their personalities inhabiting your developing mind. That influence it is not going to fade.

 

When you leave the abuse, what you will experience is neglect. The negative experience can be used as a powerful incentive to enter therapy. If you think therapy would be useful for you and you can afford it, then you will have a more confident transition towards independence getting it earlier rather than later.

 

It is like you are saying "I can only go to the hospital once I get away from the place of my injury."

 

Maybe there is a specific reason why you need to leave your place of injury first, but ideally you would be conscious of it and able to understand the costs and benefits.

[Spenc]

@Spenc

 

I was friends with him 8 years and it ended about 8 months ago.  He and I were both set on living philosophically and he was the only person in my life I could talk about this stuff with. He was probably the truest friend I ever had and I knew him for 8 years.

 

Life satisfaction back then was getting better because of finding FDR, but I was trimming my relationship tree so it was really stressful.  As for my relationship with mom and dad, bad, and I was addressing it with them to no avail.  I talked to my friend about it all the time, as he was doing it with his own relationships too.  He wasn't as deep into the books and podcasts as I was though.

 

He and I eventually stopped seeing each other because of a girl in his life that these convos were coming into conflict with.  The decision was mine though. 

 

I bought the booze because I wanted something to help me deal with being in this house after wanting to leave for months.  And yes it was Vodka. 

 

I own a few guns because I've always loved them since I was a kid.  My father hates guns with a passion.  It's a hobby I had to totally pursue myself. 

So, out of curiosity, 8 months can be a long time....what has happened with the friend and the girl for whom he abandoned philosophy?  Is he welcome back into your life if the relationship dissolves and he seeks philosophical answers for his mistakes?  How patient were you with him between the time he started neglecting philosophy and the time you ultimately called off the friendship?

 

Saying you purchased vodka to deal with your [stress/anxiety/however you want to term it] isn't really an answer.  I mean, it was already kind of implied.  I meant by asking why you bought booze: how did drinking alcohol come to seem like a viable solution to you?  You're partial to living a philosophical life, so I think in order to respect your intelligence I have to conclude that you knew better.  Is that fair? 

 

You describe this friend as being there for you during a time of particular growth and stress in your life, and really the ONLY person there for you at that time.  You purchased vodka in order to deal [with stress of your circumstances]. Instead of opening up yourself to a friend to deal with your problems, you turned to a substance to erase yourself in order to deal.  Also in your dream, you were with your friend until trouble started, then you ran into the problem area and left him behind, at least that's the way I interpreted it.

 

My initial reaction to your first post was that you were sabotaging yourself from moving out.  Or you are self-harming in order to seek closure with your parents.  Like, if you're struggling in your relationship with your parents and then you move out, the chances are you will eventually just not even see or speak to them anymore.  You might be seeking closure by harming yourself and testing their reaction and commitment to you.  Again, that was just the first thing that jumped into my mind.....

[Matthew Ed Moran]

 

 

@Matthew Ed Moran

 

First off thanks for your response.  I like how concise you are. 

 

You're right that they would have ganged up against me. I know that because before I went to the township, I told my parents about it and they advised I let it lie.  The point wasn't about avoiding legal consequences, it was about taking responsibility for what I had done no matter what the consequences.  

 

Them being the people they are, they were worried about looking bad and being inconvenienced while I was worried about doing what was right.  I felt total isolation just like you referenced.  The prospect of the world coming down on me scared me into hiding (though if someone was hurt I would have taken responsibility).

 

Curious though, how did you come to the conclusion about the isolation?  I'm guessing the dreams and my folk's dis-concern with the alcohol thing?

 

I'm sorry about that. It is obviously not a positive experience in the moment, but my suspicion is that your guilt was to warn you what will happen in the future if you don't take action now to become less isolated. I can tell you first hand that experiencing guilt is a luxury compared to lacking conscience. I think anybody who has ignored their guilt will tell you the same thing.

 

Even without knowing the specific response they gave you besides what you told me, I know that the isolation you felt was inflicted by their choice to respond to you in a way that would specifically disconnect you from your emotions. When you have a significant emotional experience and your parents do not reciprocate, that is a deeply isolating experience.

 

If you can find a good support group or therapist, I think that will provide the opposite type of experience and make your emotions vital. I think any human contact with people who are more concerned with your well being than your parents will act against your isolation.

[Pod]

 

I'm sorry about that. It is obviously not a positive experience in the moment, but my suspicion is that your guilt was to warn you what will happen in the future if you don't take action now to become less isolated. I can tell you first hand that experiencing guilt is a luxury compared to lacking conscience. I think anybody who has ignored their guilt will tell you the same thing.

 

Even without knowing the specific response they gave you besides what you told me, I know that the isolation you felt was inflicted by their choice to respond to you in a way that would specifically disconnect you from your emotions. When you have a significant emotional experience and your parents do not reciprocate, that is a deeply isolating experience.

 

If you can find a good support group or therapist, I think that will provide the opposite type of experience and make your emotions vital. I think any human contact with people who are more concerned with your well being than your parents will act against your isolation.

 

 

That's what I recently theorized my guilt was.  A last call to action.  Stefan talked about how his insomnia was his true self's last push for him to start living his values, and I have a hypothesis that this guilt I'm feeling is my true self saying:

 

"If you're so dedicated to virtue, why are you running around in circles with this year-old bullet ordeal and doing nothing about the fact that your parents are still in your life?  Why is THAT not your value conflict of focus?"

 

I also thought that the dreams might be a warning, that staying with my family would lead to more disastrous isolation, and that I needed to get out as fast as possible.  My greatest fear though, is that after I move out I will still feel this guilt and it will be so debilitating that I won't be able to function.  Of course being out of this place and assessing the situation  is much better than assessing it from within. 

 

What do you think?  Your conclusions match mine in a lot of areas so I think we might be onto something.   (Also, I just got confirmation that I have a job and a place to move out to, so I'm feeling extra anxious.)

[Pod]

@Spenc

 

They split up not long after he and I did.  I had one last talk with him a few months later (just to get closure with how I felt about my decision) and he said he cut it off because she wasn't "making him happy".  He got together with a new girl right away I believe.  Said he couldn't stand anything Stefan said now.  He didn't have any rebuttals and I pressed him on that, but he said "if you follow these values, you'll be totally alone".  That pissed me off because he was telling me that I didn't exist to my face. The fear brought him down and that's when I knew that I didn't have the relationship with him I thought I did.

 

Like anybody in my life, it would take a lot of talking and work but I could let him back in.  I was very patient with him because I knew how hard it was, and he was actually getting the hang of it quickly.

 

Yes, I did know better than drinking, but it was to help me "get along" as I learned about philosophy and worked on moving out.  I thought I could handle it but it turned out it was just an opiate for the pain of being around my family.  I think I knew that from the start so yea, it's fair. 

 

In the dream he was sitting down behind me watching me shoot into the woods.  He seemed interested, even amused.  He wasn't trying to stop me.  When it went from 3rd person to first person is when I dropped the rifle and ran into the woods.  He didn't follow behind.   I was totally alone in confronting the damage I had done. 

 

And this last part  of what you said:

 

 

You might be seeking closure by harming yourself and testing their reaction and commitment to you. 

 

Before I went to the cops I sat down with my parents multiple times and expressed my grief and guilt about the situation. I did this even though I hadn't been speaking to them for months.  It was like I was using this to get sympathy or at least some kind of emotional support.  I felt like I needed some kind of connection even though I despise who my parents are.  Like I said, I have 0 people left in my life who wanted to come with me on this journey so I was going to take any emotional scraps I could get.  

 

Also this question is for you personally, what do you think of my situation?  What if I just stop here and assume nobody's stuff was damaged in any major way and just left it at that?  Because that sounds like a coward's way out to me. It doesn't violate the NAP or UPB, and I didn't intentionally victimize anyone, let alone victimize anyone at all it seems.  It just seems like such a huge scar on my past that I feel I can't look away from without sacrificing my soul.

 

And thanks for reading/responding to all this.  I know it's a lot but you and Matt Moran are helping me out of a storm right now and I need this so badly. 

[Spenc]

So your parents in the first dream feel like you got what you deserved.  You presented your job as the gateway to freedom from your family when you mentioned it initially.  You get fired in the dream (I was originally hung up on the word 'fired' in the dream and the connection to 'firing' your gun off, but perhaps the emphasis was backwards) and that means that no job, no savings, no way out.  And your parents are disinterested in your trip to the ER and in the dream they think you got justly served when you're fired.

 

In the second dream, your friend who tells you that you'll be all alone if you pursue your lifestyle, leaves you to face the world alone.  You decide in the dream that you have to charge into the woods alone.  So you know that this friend represents people who you need to leave behind in order to move forward.  You make the choice to do so in the dream because you seek to do the right thing.  Furthermore, you seek to assist and ensure the well-being of all the people in the parking lot area.  They reject your intentions and instead offer anger and scorn back to you. 

 

You're thinking there's another chance to get a connection with your parents, or at least there's a flickering hope.  The other word that stood out to me from the beginning with your dreams, was the "holes" in the parking lots.  It connected to the common phrase "poke a hole" as in to debunk a theory, like Stefan's recent video "poked holes" in Milo's statement on his controversy.  So, when you're applying philosophy you're poking holes in society and family and relationships around you, and you want to point these holes out and help people become philosophical but they just resent and scorn you for poking holes.  The other thing that seems relevant is that nobody seems to have been hurt by the rifle shots, so as this mob swarms around you in anger, the prudent thing for you to do would be to get the hell out of there before they attack.  It's kind of like what you said to Matthew....why are you worrying about some bullet from a year ago when I should be addressing my situation at home?  Well, in the dream, why are you worrying about those holes in the walls and cars instead of worrying about yourself as you're being swarmed?

[Pod]

@Spenc

 

I never thought of it from that perspective, that the holes are me poking holes in peoples' hypocrisies and the people swarming me angrily are the people in my life who don't want me to be asking these questions.  I can't see how this ties to the night before where I almost got poisoning though. 

 

And I don't know if this is relevant but I feel like it needs to be posted.  I basically had a breakdown in the car tonight before coming home from work.  It was a fully fledged panic-attack.  I don't know if moving out is going to alleviate this guilt.  I wanted to talk to Stef about this on his show but I messed up the set-up with Mike.  I'm so scared right now.  I don't know what I'm gonna do.  I have nobody besides this board and I don't know how long I could last out there by my own.  I could use the extra money I make in this new job to get me therapy but what if that doesn't work? 

 

I feel helpless and trapped again just like in the dreams. 

[Spenc]

@Spenc

 

I never thought of it from that perspective, that the holes are me poking holes in peoples' hypocrisies and the people swarming me angrily are the people in my life who don't want me to be asking these questions.  I can't see how this ties to the night before where I almost got poisoning though. 

 

And I don't know if this is relevant but I feel like it needs to be posted.  I basically had a breakdown in the car tonight before coming home from work.  It was a fully fledged panic-attack.  I don't know if moving out is going to alleviate this guilt.  I wanted to talk to Stef about this on his show but I messed up the set-up with Mike.  I'm so scared right now.  I don't know what I'm gonna do.  I have nobody besides this board and I don't know how long I could last out there by my own.  I could use the extra money I make in this new job to get me therapy but what if that doesn't work? 

 

I feel helpless and trapped again just like in the dreams. 

Well, I just don't have enough details about your history or what all else in order to tie in the alcohol and everything else.  And even if I had the compete knowledge of your history, I'm still not a therapist and am only a few years into tying philosophy to self-knowledge.  So I'm just giving you a) thoughts that are provoked in me by your language and b) philosophical connections between the limited information I have accumulated from your posts.  So just keep that in mind; I'm just a guy on the Internet.

 

Anyways.....So, as I said before, your choice of drinking alcohol seems to be an apparent choice of self-erasure, right?  So it didn't seem odd to me that you would then dream about your friend who had previously been your only outlet to experience and share your true self with.  That is the main connection that stood out to me, whether it is true to your experience is for you to determine.

 

I just want to mention here that I had a pretty strong connection tied together and I've tried to type it out into a paragraph or two that makes sense in writing, and for whatever reason it becomes very foggy for me.  I delete or cut away what I have typed and take a moment to re-connect the dots in my head and the connection strikes me again!  Then I go to type it out and it becomes foggy again.  This has happened a few times now, so I'm not sure what to make of it.   But I'll leave this here which was important to my understanding of how the dream you had might connect your experience:

 

One of the things I wanted to look up and mention, but forgot:  the way you describe the dream as starting out as an observer of you and your friend.  Then when you perceive a situation that requires action and responsibility, you suddenly emerge into an active role in your dream and take over your body.  I meant to ask if you were aware of what these types of transitions are believed to represent in dreams, but forgot to bring that up.  Also, I wanted to look it up for my own curiosity.  But I feel like there might be something there to do with self-erasure/observer and self-knowledge/actor.  So I think this is pretty crucial to understanding the dream, why did you start in third persona and emerge to first person?

 

Here's a cursory search of "Dreaming in third person":

 

Mostly just links to ask-and-answer sites and web forums, so not the best of results on google to find answers from.  Here's one of the best I saw....

from a self-identified 20-year journal user on Quora.com, user ask-and-answer format:

 

Sometimes it can be to do with a certain ‘disassociated’ feeling in life - that life goes on and you are not a participating party, like watching a movie. However it is a common way to dream and nothing to worry about. If the dream repeats often it’s worth writing down your dreams in detail to see if you can pick out themes or regular issues occurring. The subconscious is often pointing to areas that are important to us but we don’t bring them to the fore in our waking life; or indeed, may not be aware of them at all.

 

So, if we focus on the "disassociated feeling in life" aspect of that answer, it would mirror your self-erasure by alcohol use that preceded your dream.  Transitioning to first person might represent your desire to take action in your life.  Sorry I can't be of more help with this, but dream analysis has a lot of woowoo attached to it and it's a tough slog to find good answers with 10 minutes of free time and some googling.

 

I would highly recommend you work to get that call with Stef though. I was listening to some older episode lately and he did quite a few dream analyses, one of which he talked about how he views different representations by how we travel in a dream or whether we are on land, sea or air.  Stef seems to have a lot insights about the form of the dream, so he would likely have a helpful perspective.

 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you messed up the set-up with Mike to get a call into the show.....You can explain that or not as you see fit.  But it's not like you're approaching a strange woman and you only have one chance to make a first impression or you've blown your chance.  If you've made a mistake, I'm sure you can correct it with assistance and sympathy for your situation from Michael and Stefan.

[Drew.]

 

I feel helpless and trapped again just like in the dreams. 

 

My rule of thumb is that if I am overwhelmed by the emotion, it is historical in nature. It might be appropriate for you to feel some degree of guilt/shame/embarrassment, but if you're feel helpless, trapped, and greatly shamed then it's likely historical.