Jsbrads Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 I have heard that children learn to lie from their parents. I hope I won't ever do that. But I was thinking about how we do that (other than by example). Rewarding Lies and Punishing the Truth The only things I have puzzled out of this on my own is Asking Questions which the child believes a false answer will yield them a greater reward than telling the truth. Did you break this item? [angry voice] And all the other permutations that exist. Is there more to it? Or is it just that simple? It goes without saying that children are incredibly observant (far more than adults) and you can trick them, so don't try.
Wuzzums Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 People adapt. They will use any strategy they can think of to see if it's advantageous. If lying yields no rewards or if telling the truth yields a greater reward then they will avoid lying. 2
Drew. Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 I think that lying is actually a great skill to have and develop, but what is important is teaching children when it is appropriate to dissemble. If someone is going to attack you if you tell the truth, then it is entirely okay to fabricate. If a child encounters such a situation and has no skill in lying or believes that he must always tell the truth in such circumstances, then he is setting himself up to be attacked. Children who lie to their parents when they have done something (like break a lamp) are trying to avoid punishment, are trying to avoid having love being withheld from them. 4
Jsbrads Posted March 27, 2017 Author Posted March 27, 2017 I won't argue that if you are hiding Jews in your basement and Nazis knock on your front door and ask if you are hiding Jews in your basement, you shouldn't lie. I dont think we have to worry about that kind of case. I am not aware of any reasonable scenario today where children need to lie. A good parent doesn't withhold love if a child accidentally breaks a lamp. If you listened to the Jordan Peterson before, you may have heard how destructive lying can be.
Troubador Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Lying is a tremendously useful life skill. It's when and how you use it that is key. Consider you can master a martial art or become an expert in firearms use, none of those endeavours imply you are violent or at all likely to breach NAP. Like any skill there is a certain pleasure in acquiring it. Consider playing poker or any number of consensual games where lying is expected and part of the fun. Another thing that is really worth bringing up is that deception is actually an incredibly difficult thing to detect particularly from a skilled liar. People with deception training don't have much more chance of detecting a lie than average chance. I cannot assert this as fact but virtuous people often avoid lying on principle, which is admirable but I theorise that if we all learned how to lie we may be able to detect it better. Where moral philosophy is crucial is that it is my understanding that truly exceptional liars can only become so through elaborate self deception. This is why people with dark triad personality traits can be so disruptive and dangerous. Particularly machiavellianism and narcissism. Which is why it is crucial to understand if you are virtuous you will probably hit a ceiling on quite how an effective liar you are capable of being. This is a GOOD THING as the trade off is you are capable of forming real human connections with people. There is also a component in rhetoric where the ability to present your case in the best possible light by highlighting where it is strong and solid and mitigating and downplaying where it is weak. Often in general life rhetoric can appeal and sway others much more readily than logic so in your mind lab you must prize logic and reason but you need to at least be conversant with rhetoric to better be able to communicate.
S1988 Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Well, while kids (hopefully) won't have to worry about lying to save themselves from a life/death situation, it could protect them from situations where they could be harmed in other ways. What if they were in scenarios where they're hounded by nosy questions or people who want to take advantage of them? For example, there were times when people asked me to do them a favor, and I would carry it out. Gradually, it arrived to a point where they expected me to be at their beck and call and wouldn't leave me alone. Now, if someone asks me for a favor, I respond by saying that I can't help them, even if I could. It may sound mean, but I never want to be in a situation where someone acts like they own me again, and if that sounds mean, then I don't want to be nice. Other times, I don't find myself lying as much, but I do commit the sin of omission by telling someone something's none of their business or I don't want to discuss it. I find it a real pet peeve when someone wants to pummel me with nosy questions while revealing little about themselves. Also, what if someone asks about something you rather not reveal to the public? Everyone has a right to privacy, and there are a lot of things about me that I don't want to tell Joe Q. Public just because they ask. It could probably be held against me for years. In my case, I seem to be a toxic person magnet, so I have little choice but to come up with my own defenses so others won't take advantage of me, even if it means being untruthful sometimes. I even pretend I'm not home if someone knocks on my door, and I'm not expecting them. Lying, or at least not telling the truth, can be a powerful defense mechanism. On the other hand, being truthful all the time can be hurtful. Like, if you saw someone you considered hideous, it'll be mean to point it out even if it were true. Or, if you were eating something you hated and said, "This is the worst thing I've ever tasted!" That'll be hurtful towards the cook in spite of being the truth. Just my two cents.
neeeel Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Other times, I don't find myself lying as much, but I do commit the sin of omission by telling someone something's none of their business or I don't want to discuss it. I find it a real pet peeve when someone wants to pummel me with nosy questions while revealing little about themselves. Also, what if someone asks about something you rather not reveal to the public? Everyone has a right to privacy, and there are a lot of things about me that I don't want to tell Joe Q. Public just because they ask. It could probably be held against me for years. Not answering a question is not the same as lying.
S1988 Posted March 28, 2017 Posted March 28, 2017 Not answering a question is not the same as lying. Oh, yeah. I guess I went a bit off-topic during my mini rant. But, everything else I said was on-target, though.
Jsbrads Posted March 28, 2017 Author Posted March 28, 2017 Troubador, I'm pretty sure the real skill at Poker is non reaction, not lying. Also liars can't tell when people are telling the truth, they are no better at detecting lies. S1899 no insult intended, but I think the whole rant was off topic, please challenge me if I'm wrong, but if you don't want to engage with someone, and they ask "can you do me a favor?" Saying "sorry I can't help" doesn't mean you would die of starvation if you helped them. It means based on your judgement, this isn't a favor you are willing to do. Neeeel caught the non response
S1988 Posted March 28, 2017 Posted March 28, 2017 Troubador, I'm pretty sure the real skill at Poker is non reaction, not lying. Also liars can't tell when people are telling the truth, they are no better at detecting lies. S1899 no insult intended, but I think the whole rant was off topic, please challenge me if I'm wrong, but if you don't want to engage with someone, and they ask "can you do me a favor?" Saying "sorry I can't help" doesn't mean you would die of starvation if you helped them. It means based on your judgement, this isn't a favor you are willing to do. Neeeel caught the non response I felt my response was somewhat related because it highlighted how people who used me expected me to be honest with them, but they didn't practice honesty themselves. But, I'll try to keep myself from going on tangents from now on. Back on topic: I don't think lying itself is wrong; I think it should be judged on the context where it's used. For example, lying is bad if it's done to shirk responsibility, or worse, blame someone else for the wrong you committed. Even more worse, lying can be a dangerous tool if it's used to tarnish someone's reputation such as through rumor-spreading or libel. Here's how lying can be beneficial: to protect someone's privacy* (or your own) or to save someone's life All in all, balance is the key. *There is an exception to this rule, though. Many abusers want their victims to not tell what's going on behind closed doors so they can continue the abuse in secret. This is a case where protecting someone's privacy is not a good thing. 1
Jsbrads Posted April 3, 2017 Author Posted April 3, 2017 Firstly, tangents are totally okay with me just didn't want your comment to be conflated with a direct response on the thread, just pointed it out. Completely agree to save a life, lie your ... off. I also don't think it will happen in 99.999999% of anyone's life. S1988 can you think of an example where lying is needed for privacy. I think no response is so much more effective. Lies can trip you up anyway, then privacy isn't kept anyway.
S1988 Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Firstly, tangents are totally okay with me just didn't want your comment to be conflated with a direct response on the thread, just pointed it out. Completely agree to save a life, lie your ... off. I also don't think it will happen in 99.999999% of anyone's life. S1988 can you think of an example where lying is needed for privacy. I think no response is so much more effective. Lies can trip you up anyway, then privacy isn't kept anyway. Well, here's one scenario: a celebrity wears a disguise when going out to eat because they want a break from crazed fans and tabloid reporters. It's not a verbal lie, but it's still lying anyway. Here's another one, a real one: My mother has my P.O. Box number that implies I live in one town even though I live in another. (It's a twin city area.) I know that she and her henchmen (my older siblings) look down on me because of what I stand for, but they have some strange obsession with me at the same time. I'm protecting my privacy through something that's not true because if they had my physical address, (especial my mother, who lives in the same town as I do) they'd think they can just come over anytime they want. It's bad enough they play the occasional hoovering game with me via email; I don't want them physically stalking me.
Jsbrads Posted April 5, 2017 Author Posted April 5, 2017 Again, both seem pure privacy oriented. A disguise is not a lie. He doesn't owe anyone candid information as to his name or even his face. He isn't dressed up like a senior citizen taking advantage of benefits he doesn't deserve. He isn't dressed up to look like a particular other person, which may be a lie if he can trick people into thinking he is someone else. And neither is a PO Box. I'm not sure why you gave them a PO Box. But that isn't your address. My friend has a PO Box near his work and he checks it during lunch hour.
S1988 Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 Again, both seem pure privacy oriented. A disguise is not a lie. He doesn't owe anyone candid information as to his name or even his face. He isn't dressed up like a senior citizen taking advantage of benefits he doesn't deserve. He isn't dressed up to look like a particular other person, which may be a lie if he can trick people into thinking he is someone else. And neither is a PO Box. I'm not sure why you gave them a PO Box. But that isn't your address. My friend has a PO Box near his work and he checks it during lunch hour. I think a disguise is kind of a lie because even if the celebrity isn't dressed like a specific person, he's still hiding his true identity, nonetheless, but for non-iniquitous reasons, of course. About the P.O. Box: It's a long story that's more appropriate for another thread since it's irrelevant to this one.
MarleneMiranda Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Actually, someone lies when they are feared about something. That is what our first parents did.
mikemolaro Posted April 20, 2017 Posted April 20, 2017 Lying can work. And it's difficult for kids in a lot of situations to see the lie as having any direct negative consequence.
MarleneMiranda Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 And I don't think that kids need to learn it.
Jsbrads Posted May 22, 2017 Author Posted May 22, 2017 As to whether lying can be moral. how is lying different than theft? getting off topic, but ok with it although you have a responsibility to verify information, because a speaker can be misinformed and they are not responsible for your behavior based on their speech...
S1988 Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Jsbrads said: As to whether lying can be moral. how is lying different than theft? getting off topic, but ok with it although you have a responsibility to verify information, because a speaker can be misinformed and they are not responsible for your behavior based on their speech... I'm unsure if lying and theft are the same thing since lying involves saying something that isn't true while theft is taking something that isn't yours and refusing to give it back. However, one can utilize both vices in conjunction by stealing and then lying about it.
Jsbrads Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 The purpose of lying is to try to insert false information into another person's outlook. Why do we honor the property of others? It is because every individual deserves freedom. Non-violence is one aspect of that freedom. Much like you can take a man and tie him with iron chains, so can one wrap another in falsehood to the extent that he does nothing but your will and that is more evil than chains. Of course everyone needs to secure their own freedom to the best of their ability. To that goal, in the knowledge that not all people are moral, one must defend themselves to the best of their ability. A gun to protect their bodies and skepticism to protect their minds. But that doesn't make lies moral. Obviously white lies have little impact and only cause minor increases in the amorality of society, slight increases in violence and therefore are far less immoral.
Drew. Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 53 minutes ago, Jsbrads said: The purpose of lying is to try to insert false information into another person's outlook. Why do we honor the property of others? It is because every individual deserves freedom. Non-violence is one aspect of that freedom. Much like you can take a man and tie him with iron chains, so can one wrap another in falsehood to the extent that he does nothing but your will and that is more evil than chains. Of course everyone needs to secure their own freedom to the best of their ability. To that goal, in the knowledge that not all people are moral, one must defend themselves to the best of their ability. A gun to protect their bodies and skepticism to protect their minds. But that doesn't make lies moral. Obviously white lies have little impact and only cause minor increases in the amorality of society, slight increases in violence and therefore are far less immoral. I don't think that lying is immoral because it does not involve the initiation of force. It is aesthetically negative though, everyone prefers the truth over falsehood (except when the truth really hurts). When something is immoral, it justifies the use of violence to correct it. I think that you would agree with me if you asked someone if they did the dishes and lied about it, that you wouldn't slap them. The enslavement thing is not quite accurate unless if this individual is also enslaved or kidnapped. We can always find information through other sources; no one has a single monopoly on any piece of knowledge. Coca-cola might have their trade secrets, but any other person could dedicate the time and energy to discovering the actual recipe. The target of a lie has his own rational faculties, empiricism, and the aid of others to help disprove a lie.
RichardY Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 How to teach your children to Lie? Establish a dominance hierarchy, but externalise it to general society and not to the Judeo-Christian God or the Family. You don't want them to disregard social hierarchy but use the dysfunction of society to their advantage, aiming for psychopath. Do not reward children for lying or punish them for telling the truth; if they become aware this will defeat the point, if they don't this will provide only a limited artificial incentive for behaviour. Destroy the concept of white lies, hold nothing sacred, punish minor transgressions as immoral, aim for the Big Fish or Leviathan. "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" Romans 3:7 You want them to lie down with the Devil. Eventually they'll probably reach a point where they become convinced of their own lies and that of society.
Jsbrads Posted June 8, 2017 Author Posted June 8, 2017 Why is violence immoral? It is immoral because you have rights no another's body. Why don't you have those rights? Because they have exclusive rights over their body. Their mind is who they are, and crimes against their body is secondary to crimes against their mind. Lies are worse than violence, because these are crimes against their mind.
Drew. Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Jsbrads said: Why is violence immoral? It is immoral because you have rights no another's body. Why don't you have those rights? Because they have exclusive rights over their body. Their mind is who they are, and crimes against their body is secondary to crimes against their mind. Lies are worse than violence, because these are crimes against their mind. Except that crimes against the mind are easier to protect against, as an adult. We have psychological defenses in place to defend against such vicious, nastiness that others can inflict upon us. In childhood, crimes against the mind are worse. Violence against the body heals naturally.
neeeel Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Jsbrads said: Why is violence immoral? It is immoral because you have rights no another's body. Why don't you have those rights? Because they have exclusive rights over their body. Their mind is who they are, and crimes against their body is secondary to crimes against their mind. Lies are worse than violence, because these are crimes against their mind. Also, their mind is not just who they are. They are the body as well as the mind. Why is crimes against the mind worse than crimes against the body? None of this argument holds together in any real logical way
Jsbrads Posted June 11, 2017 Author Posted June 11, 2017 Neeeel I would like to hear your response to my ideas. I don't claim to put anything immoral above or below anything else. It would seem there are white lies which so long as they aren't habit forming, would create a minimum of damage to others and society. Peers flicking ears or punching shoulders so long as not done incessantly seems to cause minimal harm. As to how to relatively weigh indoctrination or inprisonment... I couldn't care less, they are both a great evil and both horrible things. It doesn't matter how easy it is to defend, a sincere attempt at either is vastly immoral. The ability to purchase a gun for self defense does not make murder less evil.
neeeel Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Jsbrads said: Neeeel I would like to hear your response to my ideas. I don't claim to put anything immoral above or below anything else. It would seem there are white lies which so long as they aren't habit forming, would create a minimum of damage to others and society. Peers flicking ears or punching shoulders so long as not done incessantly seems to cause minimal harm. As to how to relatively weigh indoctrination or inprisonment... I couldn't care less, they are both a great evil and both horrible things. It doesn't matter how easy it is to defend, a sincere attempt at either is vastly immoral. The ability to purchase a gun for self defense does not make murder less evil. I wasnt arguing that your conclusion was wrong. That is, I wasnt saying you are wrong to say that psychological abuse is worse than physical abuse. I was saying that your reasoning for coming to that conclusion was incorrect.
SonOfPhilo Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 @Drew Davis wouldn't it be immoral though considering you're actively coercing somebody's reality, thus forcing them into false ideas/belief patterns?
Drew. Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 16 minutes ago, SonOfPhilo said: @Drew Davis wouldn't it be immoral though considering you're actively coercing somebody's reality, thus forcing them into false ideas/belief patterns? I wouldn't be coercing someone's reality, nor would I be forcing them into false ideas/beliefs. If I tell you that yesterday I saw a dragon in my living room, are you going to believe that? Is your perspective of reality going to fundamentally warp to a world where living rooms are real things and not just things of mythology? No. You know that living rooms cannot exist and do not exist. When I interact with most people and they make a claim, I'm pretty skeptical of what they have to share. When someone tells me that karma is real and they have glimpsed nirvana, I don't suddenly believe that such things exist. What I process is that this person believes that they had this experience, such a concept is real, is a decent metaphor to explain an empirical experience, etc. Lying to children in attempt to create those false ideas and beliefs, such as indoctrination is wrong. I would say morally wrong too, because children probably cannot escape that indoctrination.
Jsbrads Posted September 1, 2017 Author Posted September 1, 2017 Drew, you are right, lying to children is unforgivable. much like abusing children. abusing adults isn't okay, so why is lying to adults okay? Ok Neeel, tell me why I'm wrong
Drew. Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 8 hours ago, Jsbrads said: Drew, you are right, lying to children is unforgivable. much like abusing children. abusing adults isn't okay, so why is lying to adults okay? Ok Neeel, tell me why I'm wrong Lying to an adult isn't abusing him or her. Adults are not sensitive or dependent on you (or the dissembler) for love, connection, and all that other things. Their world view is more developed, and have the means and faculties to challenge the lie. It would be aesthetically unpreferable, in general. Lies to protect personal boundaries are okay, I think, especially when that person would try to violate your boundaries if you tell the truth. Boundary violation would be aesthetically negative as well. Some people do not deserve or haven't earned our trust, and to share too much too quickly by being extremely honest is to violate our own personal boundaries. Second, I think that lies as jokes are okay as well. For example, when I play a table-top roleplaying game, I might take a hit of a small amount of damage and then pretend that it has knocked me unconscious. Or when a game wraps up in an organized play setting and a friend asks how it went, I told him that the entire party got killed.
Jsbrads Posted September 27, 2017 Author Posted September 27, 2017 Aesthetics? what if the child isn't your child? Then lying okay? You haven't told me why it's wrong, only you don't like it. i have never accepted your premise that one has to lie to protect themselves. No comment is always an option. I welcome any new info/arguments, but I think we are just circling now.
S1988 Posted September 28, 2017 Posted September 28, 2017 On 9/27/2017 at 1:50 AM, Jsbrads said: Aesthetics? what if the child isn't your child? Then lying okay? You haven't told me why it's wrong, only you don't like it. i have never accepted your premise that one has to lie to protect themselves. No comment is always an option. I welcome any new info/arguments, but I think we are just circling now. What about lying to spare someone's feelings? Like, if a close friend of yours cooks a dish you find disgusting, but you don't want to tell them outright because you care for them. On the other hand, you don't want to tell them it's the best thing you've ever tasted because they'll make more of it and you'll dread mealtimes with them. Not sure if it's a huge lie, but you could say something such as, "That dish isn't my cup of tea," even if the dish is the worst you'll ever tasted. Another example is telling someone that everything is fine when it isn't if you have a problem, but you want to solve it yourself because you don't want them to fuss over you and give you unsolicited help.
Jsbrads Posted October 1, 2017 Author Posted October 1, 2017 So what you are saying is that speaking diplomatically is okay... but you understand that lying to a friend, besides the negative repercussions to yourself, is also pretty bad? Even if they are an adult.
RichardY Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 "To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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