What is Fascism?

[AntiCodon]

Hey guys,
 

I've had numerous debates with various individuals I know who has recently taken up the far left ideology. One of the interesting aspects of their ideology I have noticed is the broadness of the spectrum with which they define fascists. 

I try not to argue definitions with far left people as the discussion always seems to break down into them informing of your apparent misconception of what communism is, or some weird idiosyncratic form of collectivism that attempts to patch up the obvious issues with anarcho-communism and communism in general. That being said, with so much talk of fascists I have been wondering exactly what is a fascist.

I'm not terribly well versed in political ideologies as its more a hobby than anything, but it doesn't seem to me that fascism is as well defined as say libertarianism or communism.

What is the far left meaning when they say "fascism". Also, is anyone familiar with their arguments for why Trump is a fascist?

[M.2]

 

[Donnadogsoth]

Fascism has multiple definitions:

1. Government modelled on a conception of a revival of imperial Rome, as ruled by a "beast man" leader who thrills and causes fear in the hearts of the masses.

2. Hypertropic capitalism.

3. Opponents of the Left.

4. Anything fitting this bill.

[Xcalyba]

It's a form of collectivism. Totalitarian collectivism. It's not so different historically to communism. Except communism can pretend to have a democratic face.

Fascism is rule by a dictator, specifically. And same as communism... Everyone is 'comrade' and works for 'the greater good' lmao generally to serve national or tribal interests.

Hence why the left are being trolled by the right calling trump 'the god emperor'

 

[Tyler H]

Authoritarian crapitalist centrism. 

I always thought that left/right political spectrum was about more/less government, but I guess that would put the left right next to the biggest mass murderers ever so.... turns out they avoid that by making it about egalitarianism. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

On 4/22/2017 at 6:38 PM, AntiCodon said:

Hey guys,
 

I've had numerous debates with various individuals I know who has recently taken up the far left ideology. One of the interesting aspects of their ideology I have noticed is the broadness of the spectrum with which they define fascists. 

I try not to argue definitions with far left people as the discussion always seems to break down into them informing of your apparent misconception of what communism is, or some weird idiosyncratic form of collectivism that attempts to patch up the obvious issues with anarcho-communism and communism in general. That being said, with so much talk of fascists I have been wondering exactly what is a fascist.

I'm not terribly well versed in political ideologies as its more a hobby than anything, but it doesn't seem to me that fascism is as well defined as say libertarianism or communism.

What is the far left meaning when they say "fascism". Also, is anyone familiar with their arguments for why Trump is a fascist?

Fascism is basically a light Communism without the desire for internationalism. Or, in other words "National Socialism," "Socialism in One Country".

The main characteristics of "true" fascism are; 1: an authoritarian state with strict regulations of the economy such as price controls. 2; A government which invests in some businesses in order to produce a certain good for use by the State, like say guns and ammo or uniforms and food. 3:A desire for ethnic unity in a given geographic area. If it is only the first two things, then you have a standard "mixed market". The first thing alone would be part of "standard socialism" minus the centralization of all production in the hands of government. The last thing is a trait of any ideology wishing to unite a disparate race, like the Second German Empire united the North and South Germans who've historically warred against each other, although the Empire could be compared to fascism since it did heavily regulate the flow of goods and people as well as patron "private" entities to provide special goods.

It could be argued that pretty much the majority of despotic states in history were fascistic simply based on the premise they generally held a strong arm over their economy and used tax monies to invest in private industry for specialty goods and often tried by force to unite their respective ethnicities. 

Modern day fascists have somewhat different definitions from each other, however the uniting principle is either the union or safeguarding of their own ethnicity. However this is part of Nationalism (which can be simply defined as either wanting what's best for one's ethnic group, or group of ethnic groups in close proximity) and therefore easily interchangeable. You don't have a "real fascist" unless he wants a military industrial complex and semi-socialist economy, making them not far off from actual Communists.

As a result I always say Fascism is about as Far Left as Communism because of how similar they are in practice.

 

 

 

[zmilne27]

On 4/22/2017 at 3:38 PM, AntiCodon said:

Hey guys,
 

I've had numerous debates with various individuals I know who has recently taken up the far left ideology. One of the interesting aspects of their ideology I have noticed is the broadness of the spectrum with which they define fascists. 

I try not to argue definitions with far left people as the discussion always seems to break down into them informing of your apparent misconception of what communism is, or some weird idiosyncratic form of collectivism that attempts to patch up the obvious issues with anarcho-communism and communism in general. That being said, with so much talk of fascists I have been wondering exactly what is a fascist.

I'm not terribly well versed in political ideologies as its more a hobby than anything, but it doesn't seem to me that fascism is as well defined as say libertarianism or communism.

What is the far left meaning when they say "fascism". Also, is anyone familiar with their arguments for why Trump is a fascist?

Fascism is weird because it doesn't fit in the conventional left-right paradigm that most people know. 

Communism and socialism involve an infatuation with the collective. There aren't any individuals. Rather, there is the collective, which is regarded as a separate organism so to speak. Fascism is much of the same, but instead of the higher entity being the "society", it is manifested in the nation state. The nation state is regarded to be a separate entity, higher than any one individual. It's basically the EXACT same thing as the early progressive era in the US under Wilson and FDR. Check out "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg. I think he covers this quite well.

 

[RamynKing]

Labels are not arguments.

So, if you respond to a label with an argument, it's like forfeiting the chess game before your opponent even moves.
Unless you are arguing with a real friend, the only way to gain ground on these sophists is to confidently cancel out their Ad Hominems with immediate and effective ones.

I'm new to this as well, but I'd like to see someone give it a go.
If someone describes a rightist as racist, he would swiftly respond by calling leftists "Bigger racists."
If someone describes a rightist as fascist, he would swiftly respond by calling leftists "Bigger fascists."

This would put them on the defensive, which is where they were trying to put you simply by namecalling. Now they have to bring real arguments to back up their claim, which might be a detour from their main point anyway. Meanwhile you can come back with better arguments that the left really are fascists and racists if you want, or you can use your offensive position to say that all the stuff they just said is actually stuff the left did.

The rule is that if the enemy feels the need to defend against namecalling, then namecalling is a good weapon. Call them names until they drop it. Say they are "The real racists, and they don't want anybody to know."

Well, it seems like a fantasy, but I think I'm onto something. The left has been beating people down with labels for a while now, and just giggling to themselves that it's easy.

Ever had a kid call you a dootyface? Try any response other than "YOU'RE a dootyface!" See how well it goes. And also be amazed at how quickly the child runs out of lines of attack when you cancel out their namecall.

 

 

 

[Jsbrads]

Yes, our use of Right and Left comes from Monarchic France. Those advisors to the king who wished for greater government interventions sat on the Left and those who wished the government leave the citizens alone as much as possible were on the right. 

Thomas Sowell called Obama a Fascist because he often allowed businesses to engage with customers as they saw fit, but then used government pressure to direct the businesses as he saw fit regardless to how it might distort the market. 

[nickmoser]

Well if you want to know what it is here it right from the horse's mouth so to speak.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL4NHQDJpaU

THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM (3).doc

[vandoren]

What it boils down to:

• Communism - kill he private sector!
• Fascism - enslave the private sector!
• Modern liberals - make the private sector a serf!
• Libertarianism - free the private sector!

[andrewclunn]

Fascism has come about in two ways:

1) A collapse that has people calling for a strong leader to restore order, who is predisposed to paternalism, traditionalism, and sees the government as a blunt tool meant to preserve and promote their values and people.

2) When collectivist authoritarians (having already been in power) realize that market dynamics will give them greater standing and power throughout the world, and the culling of those who oppose their rule means those who remain share an easily exploited national identity, and they no longer have any interest in the pretense of caring for the weak, they adopt fascism.

Fascism justifies its collectivism by viewing society as an organism, and defining the "good" as what perpetuates its growth, power, and longevity.  To this end the political structure resembles theocratic monarchy, the economic system resembles corporatism, and the cultural art / media / propaganda similar to military communism.

Fascist nations (by their nature) seek to conquer, subjugate, or destroy rival nations.  Military alliances are prerequisite to anything resembling free trade with a Fascist state, and considering their growth nature, this is likely only a temporary state, as the Fascist state is incapable of seeing any other nation as its equal without also considering it a rival.

As a form of collectivism it works (in that it can compete economically and militarily with democratic capitalist societies).  It suffers from all the same issues of succession that traditional monarchies do.  It would also really suck to be a racial, ethnic, or religious minority in a Fascist nation (or in a former nation that was just conquered by one).  Also it seems highly unlikely that feminism or gender equality would exist in a Fascist nation, as every instance thus far has been pointedly and purposefully patriarchal by nature.

[ofd]

It's an immunological reaction to Communism.

[J.L.W]

When I studied politics in University I thought about this for a long time, how we definitions of various things was part of the course.

You have to of course define fascism as separate from tyranny, or dictatorship.

I decided it is when the government controls the resources, behaviour and importantly... ideology of the country through propaganda. So in a free market democracy the media and government might be in lock step because they have individually come to their own conclusions. But if the State behind the scenes uses force to insist the mainstream works with them then that is propaganda. Fascism has a religious, or more specifically 'cult like' component.

[J.L.W]

[Kohlrak]

7 hours ago, J.L.W said:

I guess that's one way of dealing with it.

 

So how do you feel this compares to the west, right now?

[J.L.W]

2 hours ago, Kohlrak said:

I guess that's one way of dealing with it.

 

So how do you feel this compares to the west, right now?

I tend to think we are living under a regime that does lean that way but is not all the way. For instance, there are a lot of things that if you talk about you will quietly disappear. Such as free energy, a lot of alternative medicine people have died recently and testifying against the Clintons ala Andrew Breitbart.

Through whatever way it has happened, and it's partly through corporations, the government does control the narrative and it is most likely done through the threat of force. Although in most cases soft power i.e. threats to livelihood.

[J.L.W]

There is definitely a cult like component to much of the liberal left. They openly state they are anti fact.

[J.L.W]

[vandoren]

Fascist = communist who understands the human nature a little better.