Atheism in Christianity

[plato85]

I was raised without religion so I don't really understand but I want to.

Do Christians really believe Jesus was the son of God? Are Atheists/agnostics prevalent in the church? Are they open about it? Do Atheists ever join the church? 

Being an atheist raised in a PC atheistic family I can see the value of being part of a society. And I see the value in established values rather than progressive values. I think my family would disown me and my friends would think I've gone mad if I converted. Has anyone seen this happen?

[neeeel]

I would guess its extremely rare for atheists to convert to a religion. Not unknown though. 

I think a lot of churches would accept you in, even if you were open about not believing. They would feel obliged to welcome you, because of the values they hold. They would also welcome the chance to convert you, I think

 

It is something I have vaguely considered before, when wondering how I can find a group/community to join. 

[plato85]

Given how irrational the population is, given the secular ideologies they drift to, I wonder how necessary religion actually is. Since we tore religion down, morals haven't been anchored to anything except fashion.

[Erwin]

12 hours ago, plato85 said:

I think my family would disown me and my friends would think I've gone mad if I converted.

It sounds like their atheism is a bigger priority to them than you. Have you thought about getting better friends?

1 hour ago, plato85 said:

I wonder how necessary religion actually is.

I think it depends which religion, for who, and for what purpose.

As the IQ drops I think religion becomes increasingly necessary. Low IQ limits how fast you can process information, and its complexity. Christianity is a great way to limit sex, procreation, poverty, and coercive behavior. For high IQ individuals, I think Christianity (and other Aryan religions due to their similarity in teachings) are a great source of virtues and values.

Does Jesus care if you believe in him or God? Or is he more concerned with whether you are a good person...

[plato85]

We're talking hypothetically and generally. I think anyone's friends and family would think they've gone mad if they changed religion. If what brings people together is common values then changing religion is like publicly declaring you don't share the values with all the people you used to.  

We used to say that the family was the basic unit of the state. Christianity organises everyone into families, and families into communities. Those communities preach charity and look after the poor. Christianity is the alternate to the welfare state.

It's curious that you call Christianity an Aryan religion, I thought of it as a Jewish one.

[_LiveFree_]

Plato, are you interested in converting to a religion?

[plato85]

I'm interested in exploring the ideas and arguments.

[M.2]

Hi, Plato!

I grew up in an atheist country, but I have seen literally hundreds of people convert to Christianity. In fact both my parents grew up atheists, so I get where you are coming from.

The biggest issue one may face while researching various religions is that very few religions actually have centralised doctrine. This is why the phrase "not all Muslims" has some truth to it, as there is absolutely no way to know what Islam currently teaches. Same goes for Buddhism, and most denominations of Christianity, and don't even get me started on animism. This is important because certain forms of religion, and within that Christianity, do not exclude atheism.

If it is specifically Christianity that you are interested in, your best bet would either be Orthodox Christianity or Catholicism, since they do have a centralised set of doctrine and canon law.
I would like to direct you to Catholic Answers. They are the best I found in English who deal with simple questions: https://www.catholic.com/
Pertainig to your question about Jesus: https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-jesus-the-son-of-god-or-just-a-holy-man-and-a-prophet

About atheism in mainstream Christianity, yes, there are many who openly state they deny the existence of God, and that they only go to church for the cookies and quality men. And then they wonder why we used to burn heretics.

 

[plato85]

9 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

I grew up in an atheist country, but I have seen literally hundreds of people convert to Christianity. In fact both my parents grew up atheists, so I get where you are coming from.

That is fascinating. It's a massive life decision coming to that point. Are they mostly converting though marriage? Or are they converting from other churches?

9 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

The biggest issue one may face while researching various religions is that very few religions actually have centralised doctrine. This is why the phrase "not all Muslims" has some truth to it, as there is absolutely no way to know what Islam currently teaches. Same goes for Buddhism, and most denominations of Christianity, and don't even get me started on animism. This is important because certain forms of religion, and within that Christianity, do not exclude atheism.

If it is specifically Christianity that you are interested in, your best bet would either be Orthodox Christianity or Catholicism, since they do have a centralised set of doctrine and canon law.

This touches on what I find interesting about Christianity. I may not know specifically what each religion teaches, but I do see the character in people that results.

I don't know what you mean by centralised set of doctrine and canon law. I assume you mean something other than the Bibles. What do the Protestants do without it?

 

[M.2]

24 minutes ago, plato85 said:

That is fascinating. It's a massive life decision coming to that point. Are they mostly converting though marriage? Or are they converting from other churches?

This touches on what I find interesting about Christianity. I may not know specifically what each religion teaches, but I do see the character in people that results.

I don't know what you mean by centralised set of doctrine and canon law. I assume you mean something other than the Bibles. What do the Protestants do without it?

 

With the fall of the Communist block, there was a gigantic "Moral Vacuum" left behind, which had to be filled by something. A massive (sadly immeasurable)  resurgance of christianity was seen in Eastern-Eu, with Russia being an extraordinary example. Westerners cannot imagine the thirst that people in non-christian countries have for Truth and Morality.

The Orthodox and the Catholics have what we call Sacred Tradition, with the Bible being a part of it. Many people join the Church because they find the Protestant community very lacky without the Tradition, and they don't like the idea that everyone can interpret the Bible the way they please. It causes much disunity and confusion. But the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, having only trivial differences between them, offer great security and unity.

Further Reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_tradition

[plato85]

I'm very interested in everything you're saying, but I don't know anything about what you're talking about. I'm going to need books and videos.

[M.2]

5 minutes ago, plato85 said:

I'm very interested in everything you're saying but I don't know anything you're talking about. I'm going to need books and videos.

Well, I could suggest books, but for that I need to know what exactly you are interested in, and where you are from.

Otherwise, any questions you have, Catholic Answers can help you.

[plato85]

I'm Australian.

I'm interested in the Moral Vacuum of the Eastern block, and how all of that played out. That is fascinating. I mean absolutely fascinating. Can you imagine everyone having no idea what is going on after an ideology collapsed. In truth I think the Russians have always had a seriously troubled grasp on reality though all the abuse they've had from their leaders.

And I'm interested in what's involved in the sacred tradition / canon law / centralised doctrine. In particular I'm interested in morality.

[M.2]

Wow, ok. Here we go...

The first person that comes to mind is Ayn Rand. She was born in the USSR. She could give you a good idea of the Nature of Communism from a secular perspective.

If you are interested in how Christians experienced everything, Walter Ciszek is a Jesuit priest who spent decades in the USSR. "With God in Russia" is the book I recommend, but any work of his is brilliant in detailing the rotten nature of the USSR.

I am going to have to get back to you on the Christian Revival in Europe. I don't know any good books on that yet. I have written about it on the forum however:

Here is the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. Literally everything is in here, so have a blast: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Anything else I can help you with? What made you so interested in such topics anyway?

[plato85]

Thanks.

I just finished reading Atlas Shrugged. I think it's my favourite book ever. Has she written anything else good? I watched The Fountain Head movie and it's put me off the book.

[plato85]

10 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

Anything else I can help you with? What made you so interested in such topics anyway?

I've grown up without morality. I mean I was raised into an amoral world. Atheist doesn't necessarily mean amoral, but I've realised that the secular world is not anchoured to morality at all, hence progressiveism (the idea that morals should continue to shift).

Atheism is fine and good, but it seems to go together with amoralism and cynicism which I despise.

[M.2]

22 minutes ago, plato85 said:

I've grown up without morality. I mean I was raised into an amoral world. Atheist doesn't necessarily mean amoral, but I've realised that the secular world is not anchoured to morality at all, hence progressiveism (the idea that morals should continue to shift).

Atheism is fine and good, but it seems to go together with amoralism and cynicism which I despise.

Ah, now I see where you are coming from. I have just checked out your post on How to Live a Good Life.
Would you mind me asking how old you are? ...because a lot depends on where you currently are in life.

I wouldn't want to seem condescending or preachy in any way, just trying to help... as all skilled philosophers know, the first thing to clear up are Definitions. When it comes to morality, the key question is "what is Good?". That is however a rabbit hole that if you go down, you will either find relativism or christianity. I firmly believe there is no alternative. Anyone who thinks otherwise, has not finished their journey. Even though I was born Catholic, I spent a good 2 years of my life exploring this question.

[plato85]

I'm 30.

8 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

you will either find relativism or christianity. I firmly believe there is no alternative.

That's far too simplistic for an atheist.

How does Plato and Aristotle's sense of morality fit into it?

[M.2]

3 minutes ago, plato85 said:

I'm 30.

That's far too simplistic for an atheist.

How does Plato and Aristotle's sense of morality fit into it?

I know it is simplistic, but I think you will get what I mean in time. Actually, I would be happy to have a chat/skype discussion with you about this. Or even better, you could have a discussion with Mr.Molyneux. You know he loves this stuff. The reason why so many christians tune in to FDR is that we sense his inner Christian trying to get out.

Christians have always considered Aristotle a great thinker, but one who did not get to the end of his journey. We quote him pretty often. Particularly St.Augustine likes to.

What I am really curious about is: What gave you the kick to want to explore Morality? What event, what person? And where are you cureently in your journey?

[plato85]

Hard to say. Possibly the demise of a newspaper that I'd grown up reading.

[_LiveFree_]

On 4/27/2017 at 8:25 AM, Mishi2 said:

I know it is simplistic, but I think you will get what I mean in time. Actually, I would be happy to have a chat/skype discussion with you about this. Or even better, you could have a discussion with Mr.Molyneux. You know he loves this stuff. The reason why so many christians tune in to FDR is that we sense his inner Christian trying to get out.

Christians have always considered Aristotle a great thinker, but one who did not get to the end of his journey. We quote him pretty often. Particularly St.Augustine likes to.

What I am really curious about is: What gave you the kick to want to explore Morality? What event, what person? And where are you cureently in your journey?

Wait. Relativism or Christianity? You do know Stefan wrote a book called Universally Preferable Behavior: A Rational Proof of Secular Ethics? And also one titled Against the Gods which is a short and sweet refutation of arguments for god? 

You understand UPB is the framework he has hung FDR on? He's not a Christian. And you folk who think he's just in the closet or something are actually projecting yourselves onto him. The truth is you really don't believe the Christian bull crap, and your inner rational being is trying to get out. 

If you think there is an end to this journey called life other than death, you're on the wrong boat. 

 

There can can be no greater relativism in morality than "because god said so."

[M.2]

Hi, LiveFree!

Has the condescending atheist finally arrived?

Would you like to lay out your arguments, or would you rather keep insulting my intelligence? I have lived in both atheist and christian countries, so I'm well used to both treatments.

[_LiveFree_]

8 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

Hi, LiveFree!

Has the condescending atheist finally arrived?

Would you like to lay out your arguments, or would you rather keep insulting my intelligence? I have lived in both atheist and christian countries, so I'm well used to both treatments.

Oh! I'd rather keep insulting your intelligence! Fun!

Is it insulting if it's an accurate portrayal?

[M.2]

2 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Oh! I'd rather keep insulting your intelligence! Fun!

Is it insulting if it's an accurate portrayal?

Very well. I do as christians do, and you do whatever you are good at.

Yes, I have actually read UPB. I do not listen to Mr.Molyneux for the truth, rather for his arguments. Which are granted very compelling, but nothing I haven't heard before. In fact all his arguments have been destroyed in the Summa Theologiae 800 years ago. Nevertheless, I am a curious individual, and I like to know how others think. 

Technically, he is Christian, because (unless I remember incorrectly), Mr.Molyneux has been baptised, and raised in a christian culture all his life. Frankly, I don't think UPB in essence negates the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, it just happens to be a bit of a raw method of discernment.

I think you misunderstood my use of the word "journey". We christians (especially converts) have been there, where Mr.Molyneux is right now, and we see that he is on the right track to christianity.

The "God said so" thing... it is a brief testament to your profound research into Theology.

But all this is just my opinion. What do you thinK?

[_LiveFree_]

41 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

Very well. I do as christians do, and you do whatever you are good at.

Yes, I have actually read UPB. I do not listen to Mr.Molyneux for the truth, rather for his arguments. Which are granted very compelling, but nothing I haven't heard before. In fact all his arguments have been destroyed in the Summa Theologiae 800 years ago. Nevertheless, I am a curious individual, and I like to know how others think. 

Technically, he is Christian, because (unless I remember incorrectly), Mr.Molyneux has been baptised, and raised in a christian culture all his life. Frankly, I don't think UPB in essence negates the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, it just happens to be a bit of a raw method of discernment.

I think you misunderstood my use of the word "journey". We christians (especially converts) have been there, where Mr.Molyneux is right now, and we see that he is on the right track to christianity.

The "God said so" thing... it is a brief testament to your profound research into Theology.

But all this is just my opinion. What do you thinK?

I think you're full of it. Stefan absolutely loves call in shows where the caller challenges UPB. If it has been "destroyed" by 800 year old arguments he'd have you on the show tomorrow to explain it.  You haven't called in before. I would have remembered. Why don't you? Think of all the potential converts to Christ you could facilitate by doing so. In fact, by not calling in with this info, you would be directly responsible for those souls being lost. 

So call in or...I don't want to say "go to hell", but in this case you just might.

[M.2]

54 minutes ago, _LiveFree_ said:

I think you're full of it. Stefan absolutely loves call in shows where the caller challenges UPB. If it has been "destroyed" by 800 year old arguments he'd have you on the show tomorrow to explain it.  You haven't called in before. I would have remembered. Why don't you? Think of all the potential converts to Christ you could facilitate by doing so. In fact, by not calling in with this info, you would be directly responsible for those souls being lost. 

So call in or...I don't want to say "go to hell", but in this case you just might.

I tried reporting you for being borderline divine with your arguments, but apparently that's not a thing. I could however report you for being passive-aggressive.

I have written in twice already to Mike, but did not get a chance. Once in December, and once this week. I was intening to bring up UBP too, however that was not my main focus.

There seems to be a good reason for you to be so hostile, and I would guess it has something to do with your parents (usually the case).

I hereby offer you again the opportunity to conduct a civil discussion with me. Will you behave in a universally preferable manner, or will you not?

 

[_LiveFree_]

13 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

I tried reporting you for being borderline divine with your arguments, but apparently that's not a thing. I could however report you for being passive-aggressive.

I have written in twice already to Mike, but did not get a chance. Once in December, and once this week. I was intening to bring up UBP too, however that was not my main focus.

There seems to be a good reason for you to be so hostile, and I would guess it has something to do with your parents (usually the case).

I hereby offer you again the opportunity to conduct a civil discussion with me. Will you behave in a universally preferable manner, or will you not?

 

lol wow! "Behave in a universally preferable manner" ??? That's what you think it means?!?

A few points:

1: Report me all you want. I'll respect whatever action the moderators take. 

2: Write in again and make this the title of your email, "CALL IN: UPB TAKEDOWN! Destroying UPB With 800 Year Old Arguments!" In the body of your email, make it clear UPB is the sole focus of the call

3: Genius! It must be my parents' fault that I'm "so hostile" (damn my wet panties!)! It couldn't possibly be a reasonable reaction to you. No way! Because you've asked me soooo many questions to know that it must be my parents. I've given you soooo much information about me. Don't psychologize people to try to win  arguments  You have no conception of my life whatsoever. 

4: If thou, heretofore, were unequivocally to conduct thyself forthright and with deep earnestness anon, thou would manifest, with unabashed efficacy and puissance, an enduring curiosity of the provenance and consanguinity of my disaffection.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Wait. Relativism or Christianity? You do know Stefan wrote a book called Universally Preferable Behavior: A Rational Proof of Secular Ethics? And also one titled Against the Gods which is a short and sweet refutation of arguments for god? 

You understand UPB is the framework he has hung FDR on? He's not a Christian. And you folk who think he's just in the closet or something are actually projecting yourselves onto him. The truth is you really don't believe the Christian bull crap, and your inner rational being is trying to get out. 

If you think there is an end to this journey called life other than death, you're on the wrong boat. 

 

There can can be no greater relativism in morality than "because god said so."

 

13 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

Hi, LiveFree!

Has the condescending atheist finally arrived?

Would you like to lay out your arguments, or would you rather keep insulting my intelligence? I have lived in both atheist and christian countries, so I'm well used to both treatments.

 

 

[M.2]

On Saturday, May 06, 2017 at 0:18 AM, _LiveFree_ said:

lol wow! "Behave in a universally preferable manner" ??? That's what you think it means?!?

A few points:

1: Report me all you want. I'll respect whatever action the moderators take. 

2: Write in again and make this the title of your email, "CALL IN: UPB TAKEDOWN! Destroying UPB With 800 Year Old Arguments!" In the body of your email, make it clear UPB is the sole focus of the call

3: Genius! It must be my parents' fault that I'm "so hostile" (damn my wet panties!)! It couldn't possibly be a reasonable reaction to you. No way! Because you've asked me soooo many questions to know that it must be my parents. I've given you soooo much information about me. Don't psychologize people to try to win  arguments  You have no conception of my life whatsoever. 

4: If thou, heretofore, were unequivocally to conduct thyself forthright and with deep earnestness anon, thou would manifest, with unabashed efficacy and puissance, an enduring curiosity of the provenance and consanguinity of my disaffection.

Yeah, I do believe that we would be much better off universally if people were civil instead of hostile.

1. I am not going to report you, because you are a donator, and I want FDR to get all the help they can get without disruptions and trivialities such as this.
2. Why do you keep telling me what to do?
3. See how annoying it is when people assume stuff about you?
4. I don't understand english that well. English is only my third language. But I'll take that as a no then.

Why did you quote me again up there? I still think you have been very rude and condescending.
I guess this conversation is over then. The community guidelines say not to engage in emotional debates, especially when one party starts hurting themselves by banging their heads against the wall.

[Tyler H]

OP, what sense is there in bouncing back and forth between one corrupt ideology and another? Why are you interested in hanging out with a bunch of child abusers who worship an imaginary being who will torture you for eternity for not loving Him? Why can't people who accept reason and evidence be your tribe?

[Tyler H]

 

[neeeel]

On 27/04/2017 at 0:34 PM, Mishi2 said:

With the fall of the Communist block, there was a gigantic "Moral Vacuum" left behind, which had to be filled by something. A massive (sadly immeasurable)  resurgance of christianity was seen in Eastern-Eu, with Russia being an extraordinary example. Westerners cannot imagine the thirst that people in non-christian countries have for Truth and Morality.

The Orthodox and the Catholics have what we call Sacred Tradition, with the Bible being a part of it. Many people join the Church because they find the Protestant community very lacky without the Tradition, and they don't like the idea that everyone can interpret the Bible the way they please. It causes much disunity and confusion. But the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, having only trivial differences between them, offer great security and unity.

Further Reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_tradition

Im not sure this counts as atheists converting to christianity, tbh

[M.2]

2 hours ago, neeeel said:

Im not sure this counts as atheists converting to christianity, tbh

You mean they weren't real atheists?

[neeeel]

6 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

You mean they weren't real atheists?

its likely the beliefs didnt go away, but were just forced underground.

[M.2]

10 hours ago, neeeel said:

its likely the beliefs didnt go away, but were just forced underground.

Good Point. That may have been the case in Poland, where you were always catholic by default just to piss off the commies. But that is not the case elsewhere. As anecdotal evidence, I haven't had christian ancestors for 4 generations, and my parents were also raised atheist, they found christianity when they were 20-25. My hungarian grandmother was in the communist party and my grandfather was pretty sour towards the church.

And this was not rare in Europe nor Asia. I know hundreds of converts from North Korea and Mongolia where christianity was absent for 700 years.