Confronting Abusive Parents

[Eudaimonic]

You guys in here seem really smart, and maybe you've experienced this yourself. I'm wondering if you can give me your perspective on how my girlfriend and I confront abusive parents and let me know any tips or advice from your own experience if you do the same.

About a year back me and my girlfriend decided that when we see a parent abusing a child, either physically or verbally, we would confront the parent (making sure to do this in front of the child) and calmly but sternly point out that what they're doing is wrong and why repeatedly until the parent either admits fault and apologizes or walks off taking their child with them. This is a very scary process, especially for me, and I'm ashamed to say that I've chickened out on a number of occasions when abusive parenting was going on in front of me, however, I'm currently going through Internal Family Systems therapy which is helping me to manage that fear.

We felt that we couldn't physically do anything unless the abuse was something more universally accepted as abuse, as though we want to live our principles we don't want to be arrested or dragged into court. We also don't confront parents like this at work as we don't want to run the risk of being fired and need our jobs to support ourselves.

We felt this was the best way to pursue our value of peaceful parenting as we believe it at least gives the child the idea that there is another perspective out there and shows them how their parents react to calm and assertive criticism. We don't go into it intending to change the parents mind as this almost never happens and in fact we've never gotten a parent to apologize or admit fault.

Does this sound like a solid approach to confronting abusive parents? Is there anyway to do it more effectively? What are your own experiences confronting abusive parents? Is there a way we could confront them at work without risking losing our jobs? Is there a way you've found to manage your fear (if you have it) when confronting an abusive parent?

I would really appreciate any and all responses to these questions. Thanks!

 

 

[Erwin]

You have no idea how bad I wish someone would have done this for me when I was a child.

My childhood was basically the USSR minus the killings. Everything was monitored to the pixel. By default, nothing was allowed unless I asked. I had to be willing to drop everything "for the family" no matter what the cost to me. I could only visit websites they approved. I wasn't allowed to question anything. I also had to learn skills I had no interest in (lots of musical instruments and sports). 

And if I said no, or failed to perform at their level... oh boy... those beatings.... 

I tried telling some adults about my parents, but they told me "It's ok, they're your parents. They know what's best!"

My dad grabbed and twisted my ears publicly once, other adults intervened. Someone filed a report with child services. I was too scared of what would happen to me if I told them the truth. My parents denied everything. Nothing happened in the end.

And to add insult to injury, I've tried talking about it with my mom, and all she does is play the victim: "Well, I said I'm sorry so what do you want from now omg!", i.e. I'm annoying them when I bring up the topic... 

And you know what my dad says after all this? "You should show some appreciation for our efforts in raising you right".

Bottom line: I really think your method is the bare minimum of what is required.

[Eudaimonic]

3 hours ago, Erwin said:

You have no idea how bad I wish someone would have done this for me when I was a child.

My childhood was basically the USSR minus the killings. Everything was monitored to the pixel. By default, nothing was allowed unless I asked. I had to be willing to drop everything "for the family" no matter what the cost to me. I could only visit websites they approved. I wasn't allowed to question anything. I also had to learn skills I had no interest in (lots of musical instruments and sports). 

And if I said no, or failed to perform at their level... oh boy... those beatings.... 

I tried telling some adults about my parents, but they told me "It's ok, they're your parents. They know what's best!"

My dad grabbed and twisted my ears publicly once, other adults intervened. Someone filed a report with child services. I was too scared of what would happen to me if I told them the truth. My parents denied everything. Nothing happened in the end.

And to add insult to injury, I've tried talking about it with my mom, and all she does is play the victim: "Well, I said I'm sorry so what do you want from now omg!", i.e. I'm annoying them when I bring up the topic... 

And you know what my dad says after all this? "You should show some appreciation for our efforts in raising you right".

Bottom line: I really think your method is the bare minimum of what is required.

I really appreciate you sharing this with me, it reenforces my confidence that what I'm doing is right, that what I'm doing is wanted and may help and it is brave of you to share something that personal with me and other board members. I can really empathize with you, not nesseccarily with the Stalin like camp your childhood seemed to be, but with the absolute violence, evil and longing for someone to tell em that what was happening was wrong that comes with a childhood like that. I'm absolutely and terribly sorry for what happened to you and wish I could convay that in stronger words to you.

You mention that you think this is the bare minimum. What else do you think I could do? Especially when it comes to verbal abuse or physical abuse that is societally accepted (like dragging a kid by the arm, at least that's accepted here) which would essentially get laughed at by child services if I brought it up. To be honest, I've never even seen a parent out right physically harm their child that wasn't in a way that is legal/accepted. I'm really eager to do more in this area but am blanking in what more I can do in the real world when confronting abusive parents and would love for any advice.

Again, I really appreciate you sharing this with me, I admire you for that.

[Erwin]

Thank you for empathizing.

As for what else could be done, keep in mind that the parent is likely to become violent with you (which was the case with my dad). Actually, my dad would regularly take out completely unrelated frustrations out on me physically. So I think it is best not to create any agitation. What I would do is simply report the situation to the police.

Either that, or take a few years to learn MMA well and actually approach the parent. If they get physical with you, give'em hell and still call the cops and report the incident.

[os.motic]

It is good to speak up in the presence of wrongdoing. Don't be a pussy.

[Spenc]

I have no experience with what you're talking about, I have very rarely seen real abuse in public. 

 

I would suggest curiosity instead of judgment. 

 

If your goal is to at the least, inform the child that there are people out there with empathy, and to also show them that their parents are exercising choices and have responsibility for their actions, then I would suggest maybe having detailed information about studies on spanking/abuse.  Like that multi-generational study that was recently released showing the inefficacy of abuse and the damages of it on the children.  Get the specific information on it, even print some business cards with the detailed info that can be Googled--like a bibliographical notation--and hand it to the parent and encourage them to look into the effects of spanking/abuse and to reconsider their choices.

 

This would achieve both goals in my view.  1. The child has witnessed empathy and assistance from another.  2. The child has witnessed the presentation of facts and choices to the parent.  It would be hard for the parent to say "We didn't know any better....We did our best....Our parents raised us like that and we turned out fine", etc.  The kid, presumably grown at the time of a later discussion could answer "Well, I remember a time you were hurting me in Wal Mart and some people told you there was new information and even handed you a card to research it yourself, so how did you not know better, and how did you do your best?"

[Drew.]

36 minutes ago, Spenc said:

I would suggest curiosity instead of judgment.

I had a friend who would be pretty confrontational when intervening in child abuse. It was always a really awful, unpleasant, stressful, frightening situation. Personally, I don't recommend it.

The approach that I've taken has been more pleasant, at least in the moment, and I think it's at least as effective. I try to be assertive "This is wrong" but also kind and considerate. This is a mistake that the parents are making. The more that the, bad terrible awful, immoral, evil person label is there, the more that they will fight and resist, making things worse in the moment, and potentially calcifying the parent. The most basic goal is to side with the child and have the child recognize it, but if the parent will think twice or drop the behavior entirely is a massive success and a desired goal as well.

These parents are repeating what was done to them as child. Spanking and yelling is how they were corrected as children, and by being assertive but non-confrontational is showing them that there is another way of correcting bad behavior. The child will see it too, and I think that will have a greater impact than just attacking the parent.

[S1988]

I think it pretty much depends on the individual, even with the nice approach. I confronted my family about the dangers of spanking by showing them Internet articles and expressing my concerns, and all I've gotten was flak. My brother vituperated me about how I condemned his treatment of his sons, and he has yet to apologize for it. (And that was nearly eight years ago.) My mother and sister trivialized his actions, and I haven't had a relationship with them for the past couple of years. Of course, they acknowledge me on my birthday, but ignore me the rest of the year.

[Jsbrads]

Erwin, would you say that it helped even if the confrontation yielded no change in the parent's behavior?

What if the parent took out more abuse in the future because someone stood up for you the last time?

I am all for doing the hard things if it will yield a positive result. I will say that right now I am unsure that these types of confrontations will yield a real change in the parent's behavior.

[Spenc]

9 hours ago, S1988 said:

I think it pretty much depends on the individual, even with the nice approach. I confronted my family about the dangers of spanking by showing them Internet articles and expressing my concerns, and all I've gotten was flak. My brother vituperated me about how I condemned his treatment of his sons, and he has yet to apologize for it. (And that was nearly eight years ago.) My mother and sister trivialized his actions, and I haven't had a relationship with them for the past couple of years. Of course, they acknowledge me on my birthday, but ignore me the rest of the year.

I'm curious why you chose to use the word vituperate?  When people use uncommon big words, it always reminds me of an episode of Step By Step when the smart older sister goes to college and her prof gives her a B (she always gets As) because she was using big words unnecessarily and unusually.  Unusual words can also sometimes become stuck in your head, earworms, just like songs.  I sometimes just repeat words over and over and over because they are stuck in my head.

 

This is a terrible principle your brother is implementing on you.  Where is the line?  If his children were malnourished and you presented him articles or studies stating the necessity of regular meals, balanced diet, etc. would it be an offense that you criticized (or condemned) his parenting?  If his child fell off his bike and broke his arm, but your brother just wrapped a tensor band on it and told him to walk it off, are you allowed to criticize his choice of treatment?  What if it wasn't coming from you directly, but instead it was a doctor or therapist who was presenting these ideas and facts to him?  Would it be okay for a professional to question his parenting methods?

 

[Spenc]

1 hour ago, Jsbrads said:

Erwin, would you say that it helped even if the confrontation yielded no change in the parent's behavior?

What if the parent took out more abuse in the future because someone stood up for you the last time?

I am all for doing the hard things if it will yield a positive result. I will say that right now I am unsure that these types of confrontations will yield a real change in the parent's behavior.

Like I mentioned above, what if you make no impact on the parent's choices but you do present the child with a specific knowledge that the parent did make those choices and knew of alternative options but behaved abusively anyways?

 

Most parents will try to weasel out of any responsibility for their abuse:  "I didn't know any better" or "I did the best I could".  If the child has a specific memory of the parents being presented with alternatives and their reaction and subsequent choices that came after that, it really neuters their ability to escape moral responsibility.

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Jsbrads said:

Erwin, would you say that it helped even if the confrontation yielded no change in the parent's behavior?

No, but I don't know if my case is common... To this day, the very thought of my dad gives me absolute horror.

1 hour ago, Jsbrads said:

What if the parent took out more abuse in the future because someone stood up for you the last time?

Often, I would try to signal to adults to help me, but they would look at me with disdain as it got interpreted as me being ungrateful. People just assumed that because my dad is a good dad because he's my dad.

Just look at the child's behavior and body language. If you see a terrified child, then it's probably better to leave it to the cops.

[S1988]

28 minutes ago, Spenc said:

I'm curious why you chose to use the word vituperate?  When people use uncommon big words, it always reminds me of an episode of Step By Step when the smart older sister goes to college and her prof gives her a B (she always gets As) because she was using big words unnecessarily and unusually.  Unusual words can also sometimes become stuck in your head, earworms, just like songs.  I sometimes just repeat words over and over and over because they are stuck in my head.

 

This is a terrible principle your brother is implementing on you.  Where is the line?  If his children were malnourished and you presented him articles or studies stating the necessity of regular meals, balanced diet, etc. would it be an offense that you criticized (or condemned) his parenting?  If his child fell off his bike and broke his arm, but your brother just wrapped a tensor band on it and told him to walk it off, are you allowed to criticize his choice of treatment?  What if it wasn't coming from you directly, but instead it was a doctor or therapist who was presenting these ideas and facts to him?  Would it be okay for a professional to question his parenting methods?

 

It's how I communicate from time to time. Besides, I like expanding my vocabulary and have always been a logophile since childhood. I would read dictionaries and encyclopedias with no adult influence. (Of course, I never gotten much appreciation for it because my quiet, weird behavior and other "peccadilloes" were seen as problems that needed to be squashed out of me.) Anyway, I guess I should get used to being judged for my eccentric behavior because that's what I went through for most of my life anyway. Nevertheless, I'm not going to change who I am just because someone thinks it's odd.

Back on topic: Funny thing is that my brother's a nurse, and I know he's not allow to hit patients, and my sister is a Ph.D. student who works in the sciences, yet they're both pro-spankers. I'm not sure how my nephews feel about the spanking issue or about me. My oldest is 19, and his younger brothers aren't far from adulthood. Perhaps they may see me as some negligent aunt or something, but I know if I attempt to reach out to them, their parents, grandmother and other aunt would know because they're so enmeshed. I guess all I can do is hope that my estrangement would prompt them to not hit their kids if they decide to become parents.

[Spenc]

5 minutes ago, S1988 said:

It's how I communicate from time to time. Besides, I like expanding my vocabulary and have always been a logophile since childhood. I would read dictionaries and encyclopedias with no adult influence. (Of course, I never gotten much appreciation for it because my quiet, weird behavior and other "peccadilloes" were seen as problems that needed to be squashed out of me.) Anyway, I guess I should get used to being judged for my eccentric behavior because that's what I went through for most of my life anyway. Nevertheless, I'm not going to change who I am just because someone thinks it's odd.

Back on topic: Funny thing is that my brother's a nurse, and I know he's not allow to hit patients, and my sister is a Ph.D. student who works in the sciences, yet they're both pro-spankers. I'm not sure how my nephews feel about the spanking issue or about me. My oldest is 19, and his younger brothers aren't far from adulthood. Perhaps they may see me as some negligent aunt or something, but I know if I attempt to reach out to them, their parents, grandmother and other aunt would know because they're so enmeshed. I guess all I can do is hope that my estrangement would prompt them to not hit their kids if they decide to become parents.

I think it's great that you're into expanding your vocabulary, but at the same time it's kind of like people who learn rare languages--it's nice and all but it isn't like there are many people you can use it to effectively communicate with. 

 

How much were you and your siblings hit as kids?   It's kind of unusual for people educated in the sciences in the modern day to be pro-spanking like you describe your siblings.  Athough, I may just be overlooking a totally different cultural perspective int he South or something..... 

[S1988]

46 minutes ago, Spenc said:

I think it's great that you're into expanding your vocabulary, but at the same time it's kind of like people who learn rare languages--it's nice and all but it isn't like there are many people you can use it to effectively communicate with. 

 

How much were you and your siblings hit as kids?   It's kind of unusual for people educated in the sciences in the modern day to be pro-spanking like you describe your siblings.  Athough, I may just be overlooking a totally different cultural perspective int he South or something..... 

I don't know too much about my brother's childhood because he's about 18 years older than I am, but with the information I do have about him, I learned it was severely abusive, particularly under the hands of our father. My brother hates him, but continues to interact with him and even used it as an excuse to hit his sons. (He said the way he treated his sons wasn't so bad because he had it worse. Talk about hypocrisy.)

About my sister: I don't recall her being hit a lot. Perhaps during the times she was hit, I was too young to remember or wasn't born yet. (She's three years older than I am.) To me, she seemed like the "good one" since she was very loyal to our mother and still is today.

Me: I was hit every now and then, usually over petty infractions or when I was used as a human stress reliever for our mother.

 

 

[Spenc]

On 2017-05-21 at 11:50 PM, S1988 said:

I don't know too much about my brother's childhood because he's about 18 years older than I am, but with the information I do have about him, I learned it was severely abusive, particularly under the hands of our father. My brother hates him, but continues to interact with him and even used it as an excuse to hit his sons. (He said the way he treated his sons wasn't so bad because he had it worse. Talk about hypocrisy.)

About my sister: I don't recall her being hit a lot. Perhaps during the times she was hit, I was too young to remember or wasn't born yet. (She's three years older than I am.) To me, she seemed like the "good one" since she was very loyal to our mother and still is today.

Me: I was hit every now and then, usually over petty infractions or when I was used as a human stress reliever for our mother.

 

 

Do you think your brother has resentment toward you for being treated better than he was as the first child and subject to significant abuse?

[S1988]

20 minutes ago, Spenc said:

Do you think your brother has resentment toward you for being treated better than he was as the first child and subject to significant abuse?

I'm quite dubious about him being jealous of me. I think his anger stems more from the fact that I dare to criticize our mother because he and my older sister are her favorites.

[Spenc]

21 hours ago, S1988 said:

I'm quite dubious about him being jealous of me. I think his anger stems more from the fact that I dare to criticize our mother because he and my older sister are her favorites.

What great virtues and values does your mother offer to him, to you and to the world that he would be so eager to come to her defense at the mere hint of attack on her character?

That seems like a plausible surface-level defense mechanism reaction, but I don't think it could hold up to scrutiny.  (Of course, I could be easily wrong)

[S1988]

Perhaps it's due to her "good sides", i.e., providing food and a roof over our heads in spite of being a low-income single mother, taking us to fun places, etc. However, when I examine her through open eyes, I don't really see much that's admirable about her.

I remember constantly being told how lucky my siblings and I are to have a family like ours by comparing us to "worse families". But, why the constant reminders about how great our family is and why be obsessed with what "other families" were doing? True healthy families focus on themselves and don't make a fanfare about how wonderful they are.

She seems so pathetic and phony, like how she refused to protect her son from his father when he was a kid. I wasn't around during his childhood, but I can tell that she spent lots of time leaning on him and brainwashing him, which is why they're so enmeshed today. Like my brother, she and my sister still talk to our father even though they despise him, something that I'll never fathom.

Another reason why my siblings practically worship her is because she encouraged them to pursue fields she never was able to accomplish. That's the downside to being "golden"; there's so much expected from you since you're the "good one". Sometimes, I wonder if they secretly wish that they didn't have to be her saviors. I can't say since I'm not a mind reader. I somewhat feel sorry for them, but at the same time I don't because they can stop anytime they want. Unfortunately, they seem to be too apprehensive to question her and continue to live out her wishes.

[Dad]

On 5/3/2017 at 4:51 PM, Eudaimonic said:

You guys in here seem really smart, and maybe you've experienced this yourself. I'm wondering if you can give me your perspective on how my girlfriend and I confront abusive parents and let me know any tips or advice from your own experience if you do the same.

About a year back me and my girlfriend decided that when we see a parent abusing a child, either physically or verbally, we would confront the parent (making sure to do this in front of the child) and calmly but sternly point out that what they're doing is wrong and why repeatedly until the parent either admits fault and apologizes or walks off taking their child with them. This is a very scary process, especially for me, and I'm ashamed to say that I've chickened out on a number of occasions when abusive parenting was going on in front of me, however, I'm currently going through Internal Family Systems therapy which is helping me to manage that fear.

We felt that we couldn't physically do anything unless the abuse was something more universally accepted as abuse, as though we want to live our principles we don't want to be arrested or dragged into court. We also don't confront parents like this at work as we don't want to run the risk of being fired and need our jobs to support ourselves.

We felt this was the best way to pursue our value of peaceful parenting as we believe it at least gives the child the idea that there is another perspective out there and shows them how their parents react to calm and assertive criticism. We don't go into it intending to change the parents mind as this almost never happens and in fact we've never gotten a parent to apologize or admit fault.

Does this sound like a solid approach to confronting abusive parents? Is there anyway to do it more effectively? What are your own experiences confronting abusive parents? Is there a way we could confront them at work without risking losing our jobs? Is there a way you've found to manage your fear (if you have it) when confronting an abusive parent?

I would really appreciate any and all responses to these questions. Thanks!

 

 

"I'm currently going through Internal Family Systems therapy" 

 

Are you just attending therapy or are you training to be a therapist? Just wondering if you have a job or something where you would see a lot of abusive parents. 

[Dad]

On 5/20/2017 at 10:15 PM, Drew Davis said:

I had a friend who would be pretty confrontational when intervening in child abuse. It was always a really awful, unpleasant, stressful, frightening situation. Personally, I don't recommend it.

The approach that I've taken has been more pleasant, at least in the moment, and I think it's at least as effective. I try to be assertive "This is wrong" but also kind and considerate. This is a mistake that the parents are making. The more that the, bad terrible awful, immoral, evil person label is there, the more that they will fight and resist, making things worse in the moment, and potentially calcifying the parent. The most basic goal is to side with the child and have the child recognize it, but if the parent will think twice or drop the behavior entirely is a massive success and a desired goal as well.

These parents are repeating what was done to them as child. Spanking and yelling is how they were corrected as children, and by being assertive but non-confrontational is showing them that there is another way of correcting bad behavior. The child will see it too, and I think that will have a greater impact than just attacking the parent.

I also wouldn't recommend intervening. I can't imagine most abusive parents being open to being corrected by a stranger. Parents who don't want the help probably aren't going to do much with it. 

[Eudaimonic]

On 5/31/2017 at 7:56 AM, Dad said:

"I'm currently going through Internal Family Systems therapy" 

 

Are you just attending therapy or are you training to be a therapist? Just wondering if you have a job or something where you would see a lot of abusive parents. 

I'm seeing an IFS counselor.

[Drew.]

On 5/31/2017 at 5:03 AM, Dad said:

I also wouldn't recommend intervening. I can't imagine most abusive parents being open to being corrected by a stranger. Parents who don't want the help probably aren't going to do much with it. 

I didn't say not to intervene, if that is what you are suggesting here or interpreted as what I had said.

I was saying, be aware of your approach, and honey draws more flies than vinegar.